A few problems I have with Christianity.

[LovelyU]

If God is infinitely powerful and has organized everything to be the way they are, why did he ever plan for Lucifer to rebell? Why did he plan for such a vile place to be created? God CHOSE to create hell, because he is responsible for everything.

Again my beliefs;

I believe God created all beings with free will, to choose and make choices for themselves. His angel Lucifer/Satan chose to go against his maker and because God created him he sentenced him to Hell. Why did he not just make him non-existent? well I suppose that God loved ALL his creations so he made a place apart from Heaven where Satan could freely choose to do what he does, a place for him and those alike. Now we are placed here somewhere in between with a choice, to join Satan in Hell or God in Heaven, here we have a taste of both sides but it's up to us to decide which road we like, so I suppose the evil things which take place here are fair for the experience to help us to decide, some are also done at our own free will, as are the good things. Do we like evil and bad things and have bad intentions like Satan OR do we like to be loving and kind and have good intentions like Jesus. So yes, God chose to create Lucifer and Hell, but it would be unfair of him to create free will and not have a place for good AND bad.

If the plan was to create Lucifer to rebel it possibly could have been for the purpose of choice to give all of his creations a choice to go against him and a place for that choice, and if we should so choose to go against God Almighty our existence when we die will basically be Hell in Hell, but there will be those who will like this place and those who made a mistake and foolishly chose to go there thinking and believing there would be no punishment for their actions or for their own greed thinking they can have more than what God offers. We all know what is good and what is bad by nature and if we choose bad things it will take us to bad places, if we choose the good things it will take us to good places, but God has made a place for everything.

Peace and love to you all.

 

[Simona25]

There is a difference between feeling compassion and displaying it in an act that may inconvenience yourself for the benefit of another, Simona. And you haven't answered my first question, but based on the posts of others it seems that you still go to hell even if you're a good person but are a non-believer. You must be missing a few morals of your own to not have a problem with this.

By non-believer I understand an atheist and not a non-christian religious man. An atheist refuses God (the sense) and embraces the non-sense. An hinduist man or a muslim man has much more coherence and much more chances to get the simpathy of God, because at least, they aknowledge the unseen world. But, an atheist, whose perspective on life is horizontal and whose plans and desires end up in the grave, will get exactly what he has deliberatly chosen while in this life: the non-sense with all the suffrance and dispair that are inherent to it.
Maybe, an atheist would get God`s attention if he would self-sacrifice himself for the love of another.

There is a huge difference between a higher intelligence and THE highest intelligence, which I understand is what God has.

Believing in a higher intelligence (even if it`s not THE highest intelligence, like you say) requires faith - which is a way of humbling your mind and admit that you can not know everything only by your senses and only by empirical evidences.

So the rape part is untrue, but the slavery, murder of children and flogging are all true. If God has done this, then - no matter how much you sugar coat it - he has done something evil. Unless you think that all these terrible things aren't evil, in which case I must repeat you have a serious moral deficiency.

I don`t think I was 'sugar coating' the OT. It`s just that I don`t have a dolorist-sentimental perspective on it (perpective that is specific to the atheist that insists on going on God`s wrath, rather than on His love for the humanity - which is manifested especially in Jesus Christ).

Regarding the 'gender' of God, this another problem I have. Everyone tells me something different. All the different explainations I've heard can't be true. So what's the cause of it? The Bible and it's teachings are cryptic. Everyone has their own interpretations.

I think I have been enough clear on that point. Even the fact that christians have different perspectives about what God is, should give you hints about He being beyond our level of comprehension.
When Moses received the ten commendements from God, on the Mount Sinai, God did not took the hypostatys of a 'white man', He appeared through an angel in a fire that wasn`t consuming itself - this is how Moses managed to describe what He saw. And when Moses asked God whom should he tell people that He is, He said "Tell them that I am that I am". So, He doesn`t have a name, He refuses to give Himself a name, because this would mean that He is limitating Himself, when He is the undefinable, the eternity, the infinity, the One that has no coordonates.
The human mind and eyes can not see the transcendent in it`s fully greatness, because it simply can not resist it. Even Adam, who was at the beggining of the creation didn`t see God in it`s full manifestation.
So, I hope that now you understand a little better why I didn`t appreciated your poor depictions of God.

And I'm quite aware that wasn't flattery, I was being sarcastic. You still haven't answered my question about miracles. Is it a highly unlikely event caused by God, or an impossible event caused by God?

Yes, I have. This world is a manifestation of God. So, this world is a miracle, an unlikely event caused by God.

If God is infinitely powerful and has organized everything to be the way they are, why did he ever plan for Lucifer to rebell? Why did he plan for such a vile place to be created? God CHOSE to create hell, because he is responsible for everything.

Angels, like men, were created with free-will; it`s true that they are closer to God, but that doesn`t mean that they can fully know what God is. There is a cryptical verse in the bible that says that women, because of the angels, should have their heads covered. Head means logic, mind, authority, leader (because we act according to our heads). So, the angels, in the byzantin icons are represented wearing a thin ribbon in their heads or covering their heads with their wings, to reflect that even the angelic mind humbles itself and wonder in front of God`s glory.
What I understand from the fall of Lucifer is that the smallest thought of pride and disobedience can not exist along with the perfection and holiness of God. So, Lucifer made his hell with his own hands.

I assume you know that God helped the writers of the Bible because it says so in the Bible, correct? You are using the Bible to prove the legitimacy of the Bible. That is circular logic, any rational mind can see that it makes no sense.

No, I believe the Bible is the word of God because it`s impossible for the simpe human mind to write such great revelations.

 

[Simona25]

God and logic in the same cup don't mix? That means God is illogical. After reading these responses, I'm growing inclined to agree.

Yes. Like I tried to show in my previous comments, God and logic (human logic) don`t mix. I think the word 'supralogical' would be more appropriate.

I had very valid reasons to say what I said, and I can very easily say that you blocked out MY dialogue with your devotion to religion.

I`m sorry. I guess I sensed a little dishonesty when I saw the same cliches that a lot of atheists use.

I understand that you're defending your religion, but why are you doing it with spite? Is that really the Christian way?

I also felt spite when you suggested that my faith is irrational... So, I guess now we are even.

Sorry for rambling, just had to get that off my chest.

Good. I also apologise for making your heart heavy.

 

[Simona25]

Yes, I have. This world is a manifestation of God. So, this world is a miracle, an unlikely event caused by God.

I got distracted by other issues and i didn`t pay much attention to this matter; so, I rectify: this world is not an unlikely event, but an impossible event caused by God.

 

[jamie26301]

I am not surprised that in answering questions, Christians have felt the need to “correct” one another, in front of this AGNOSTIC (there seems to be an insinuation that he is atheist – there is a difference. Agnostics are open to learning more, athesits’ minds are made up and don’t want to hear it) thus reinforcing the idea that we are divided. I know that’s obvious, but it shows that we will bite each other, and part ways over DOCTRINES, and will not unite on what we have in common, which is Jesus.

Don’t quote the “I came to bring a sword” verse to me. In context, Jesus is talking about believers vs unbelievers. In another context, Jesus prayed that believers would be ONE, as He and the Father are one. That doesn’t mean that we all agree, but that we fellowship with one another based on what we DO agree on – Jesus and His death and resurrection.


But you see, the fact that we will separate over doctrine says to the atheist/agnostic, “They must have different Jesuses. Why should I take this Jesus seriously when people who follow Him (and thus are influenced by Him) can’t put differences aside and LOVE one another, being that is what this God is supposed to be?” To outsiders, we have NOTHING in common with each other, other than bigotry, because we won’t ACKNOWLEDGE the similarities, because the meaningless details and
being the one who is right is more important to us… pity.


Sushimaru, I think you’re being honest and one thing everyone on this thread needs to keep in mind is that emotion and tone is often hard to communicate in text. Many times I think people have a chip on their shoulder and thus it colors the way they read words. I personally didn’t see you as “trolling.” I think you’re an honest inquirer.


That being said, a soul that stops inquiring is a complacent soul. Sushimaru, I will warn you this, if you’re having serious thoughts of accepting God – you will NEVER “figure Him out.” And someone on this thread even insinuated that you will, just through extensive reading and realizing that answers can’t be summed up in “two sentences.” God is beyond us, and high above us – to stop asking questions, i.e. “I have all my ‘facts’ about God. He doesn’t change. He is love. He is just” and so forth, is to put yourself on the same level as God, because you have all understanding of Him. To never ask yourself “Could I be wrong” is to admit that you have divine understanding… and we are not divine.


Christians automatically get their pants in a wad hearing the questions you put forth, because what they believe, they believe as absolute, they believe they have God, His nature and His ways all “figured out” (being through personal experience or Bible reading). They believe it’s the absolute truth, so to question it is like questioning if 2 + 2 is 4. But here’s the thing (and I think someone mentioned this and I appreciate that) questioning God, even in doubt and anger, is healthy. Jesus encouraged us to seek, ask, and knock… I don’t think He meant that the seeking for answers will end one day because God has finally “shown you.” You know, many Christians change doctrines because they were seeking, but once they found a church they were comfortable with and agreed to, they stopped seeking, they stopped questioning certain meaningless (in terms of salvation) doctrines because they have it “figured out” and could never be wrong.


I should say I’m a Christian myself, and I will answer your questions in PM to avoid being “corrected” myself… though, with all that I said already, I probably will anyway. I will leave you with a verse, from a wisdom book.

Ecclesiastes 11:5

[SUP]5 [/SUP]As you do not know what is the way of the wind,
Or how the bones grow in the womb of her who is with child,
So you do not know the works of God who makes everything.

 

[jamie26301]

By the way Sushimaru,it will take me maybe a day or two to answer your questions. They are thought-provoking! And I love a good discussion. So, just be patient with me, I want to answer your questions as fully as I can.

 

[jamie26301]

I must apologize... the post in which I think there was an insinuation that our guest is an atheist - I didn't read carefully enough. I really just skimmed the thread. I think I should go back and read carefully. Please forgive me.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

According to Scripture, the origin of sin is found in free will. God gave us the power of choice, which in itself is a good thing. Tragically, freewill was misused.

You're correct that evil originated in heaven before it did on earth. Evil was born in the breast of an archangel in the presence of God. This is a tremendous mystery, but it is, nonetheless, essential in understanding the origins of evil.

The traditional name given to this archangel is taken from Isaiah 14:12-14, "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

While most contemporary biblical scholars believe that this passage, in context, refers to "the king of Babylon" (v. 4), the pride and fall of this man is an emulation of the choices of the first archangel, who rebelled against God by a similar but ancient hubris.

Paul exhorted, "[An overseer] must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil" (1 Tim. 3:6).

According to Revelation, other angels followed suit. A third of them rebelled with Lucifer and became demons (as he had become the devil). John wrote in Revelations 12:

"Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The great dragon was hurled down-that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him."

Clearly, there was sin in heaven before there was sin on earth. Interestingly, the nature of angels is structurally different from humans in the sense that they only have the ability to make one freewill choice over the course of their existence (which is eternal): for God or against God. After an angel made that choice when the opportunity presented itself with the rebellion of Satan, their very nature reflected their choice for eternity.

The origin of evil is a problem for any worldview, but particularly so for theism, which must account for how evil arose in a universe where God and everything He made were perfectly good. The answer is found in one of God's good gifts: free will. While freedom is good in itself, it also allowed the potential for evil. Hence, free will made evil possible.

However, while God is responsible for the fact of freedom (which made evil possible), free creatures themselves (e.g., Lucifer and Adam) are responsible for their acts of freedom (which make evil actual). God gave them the power of choice, and instead of choosing to obey and follow the good, they disobeyed and exercised free choice for sin. Hence, evil arose from the free will of the good creatures that God made.

If God is infinitely powerful and has organized everything to be the way they are, why did he ever plan for Lucifer to rebell? Why did he plan for such a vile place to be created? God CHOSE to create hell, because he is responsible for everything.

 

[Tr]

First off if you define free will in a literal sense you will find that humans do not have it. You do not have the free will to make certain choices such as never drinking water again or to stop breathing or to commit a heinous act as you could find it so morally repugnant that you are unable to do it.

Humans are born with a some free will but not total free will as we are living beings, a seemingly simple choice can have a positive or negative outcome.

 

[BGirlChristian]

1. Good is an opinion. It changes for every person. I've always wondered what happened to those who never even heard of The Lord...and I do not believe they go to hell because they never knew Jesus's love. However, I really don't know what judgement is likebecause obviously I'm still alive.

2. I believe that animals do have souls, they just do not have the Holy Spirit.

3. The Lord never was, is, or will be evil. He is everything pure and true. However, in the OT, God had not experienced being human and being subject to temptation. Therefore he could not understand nor be as forgiving as he is now after he had the chance to walk the earth as Jesus.

4. It is really unknown what God is or what he looks like. But I understand what you mean... Jesus was portrayed as a white man, but he was from the Middle East.

5. A miracle is unexplainable and unbelievable. It is something only The Lord could have caused/created.

6. The Lord created hell for the devil as has been said. Sin and temptation is caused by the devil to lure you away from The Lord.

7. Indeed every man that wrote the Bible was a sinner just like the rest of this world. Only The Lord Jesus Christ never sinned. But these men were inspired and touched by the Holy Spirit and wrote of the real life relationships and encounters with The Lord.

I answered your questions as best I could and if you have any other questions, please do ask! And if you think you don't what to live your life in a delusion, think of it this way...everybody needs something to believe in. Why not a Creator so pure and good who loves everyone regardless of sinner or saint, who you can always look up to and strive to be a better person as he asks? It seems to me if every one lived their life like that, this world would be more than a better place...as it was intended to be.

 

[BGirlChristian]

Humans do possess literal free will. It is possible for someone to choose to stop drinking water or stop breathing. But people have a will to survive too, and it's only natural to avoid things that could lead to death.

 

[Tr]

If you could prove that and have it peer reviewed you might get a Nobel prize.

 

[hon2294]

hello sushimaru.. i dont know why but this thread is funny. i also once asked those questions but never found answers, i think its just a matter of faith. ask God for wisdom dear brother and you would find yourself to stop thinking too much but rather having understanding as you continue to read the bible.

i think if God gives us the answer instantly, we would still never understand and comprehend. i believe we wonder and we dont understand things for us to seek the Lord, have faith and submit to Him. one thing i know is that He has made everything, including you, your mind which asks.. ask God to give u wisdom, and if He is willing He lets u understand.
There is a time for everything.. God bless u.

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
Matthew 7:7-8

 

[GeniusMartins]

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.BIBLE.jesusspeaks