The Letter to the Romans...

[Hoffco]

PLease keep in mind the word, Eph.4:23 "...be RENEWED (present, passive action, this is GOD'S work) in the spirit of you mind, v24 ..."put on the new man(our work)which was created according to God, (God's work,new birth) in true righteousness and holiness." After we sin, as a christian, we "put off sin & put back on" the new nature, and God RE-news us again. Not an other born again exp. but a renewing of it .Present con't. action on God's part. Like David ,psa 51 was not born again again, but was restored, renewed. Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

Abraham's "receiving " circumcision was his action , not God's action, as we receive water baptism as our sealing our faith in Christ. God's part is the spiritual circumcision and spiritual baptism upon our hearts. We must give a,the answer,confession, of a good conscience to others and God that we are real. Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Abraham's "receiving " circumcision was his action , not God's action, as we receive water baptism as our sealing our faith in Christ. God's part is the spiritual circumcision and spiritual baptism upon our hearts. We must give a,the answer,confession, of a good conscience to others and God that we are real.

God acted in giving circumcision as a sign after Abraham was justified by faith alone.

Circumcision had nothing to do with Abraham's righteousness/justification,

nor does it have anything to do with the righteousness/justification of those of the faith of Abraham.

 

[Elin]

I'm thinking' a brief recap up to this point would be in order.

The theme of Romans is God's righteousness, both
the righteousness from God in justification,
and the righteousness of God in his actions.

We started with the unrighteousness of the Gentiles,
then moved to the unrighteousness of the Jews, and
concluded with the shutting up of all mankind in sin and unrighteousness.

And now we are looking at the righteousness of God "imputed" (declared) by justification,
through Christ,
and received by faith alone, no law keeping or works of obedience involved in its reception,
according to the principle of 3:27-31,
and illustrated in Abraham in chp 4.

And all dedicated to one point: righteousness/justififcation is by faith alone, and not by works of obedience.

 

[Elin]

Romans 4:16-17

That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.

What Paul's Saying...

(Concluding the previous point), Paul says this is why the promise [to inherit the world] needs faith in order to guarantee it. . .

Alternative.

1) "Depends" means "based on," not "added to."

The promise is based on faith, faith is not added to it.

2) "adherent of the law" = the Jewish Christian

"of the faith of Abraham" = both Jewish and Gentile Christian

The promise is to all who are of the faith of Abraham, including those who adhere to the law (Jews),

but it is based not on the law.

We must keep in mind. Paul speaks of two kinds of righteousness, the first is
IMPARTED righteous, in the new birth, SANCTIFICATION; then the SECOND kind of righteousness is the
IMPUTED righteous as in JUSTIFICATION.

Paul begins his book with the IMPARTED righteousness

No, he does not.

Paul introduces the righteousness of God (justification) in 1:16-17,

then presents the unrighteousness of the Gentiles,
the unrighteousness of the Jews, and concludes with
the unrighteousness of all mankind (1:18-3:20),

before returning to imputed righteousness in 3:21-5:21.

Paul does not take up imparted righteousness until 5:22.

Paul's order in justification is really , by grace 1st. by faith 2nd. and by works 3rd..

Baloney. . .Pau'sl order in justification is to deny that works are in any way involved.

Paul also does this in titus and ephesians.

Paul does no such thing in Ro, Titus or Eph.

Throw away the Judiazer playbook on the Bible.

It is ignorant of grammatical construction, and takes the liberty to reconstruct the Greek of the NT text.

 

[Hoffco]

Elin, you missed the clear meaning of the 1st. 2 chapters of Romans. The Gospel is about making sinners holy by the holy calling to obey the faith: the teachings of God. the need is so great it takes the POWER of Grace to do the job. Sinners are only evil with out God's intervention of power, they will never believe the good news. The curse, the wrath of God is on sinners. Only the POWER of God can rescue them, they are dead to righteousness and to God: They do not live the righteous life of faith. Chapter 2 teaches that only the Holy Spirit can change the sinners heart. What natural religious faith the Jew has because of God's revelation to them, can not save them. None of the works of the law can save them. they must be born of God before they can understand or see or enter ,the kingdom of God. The born again Gentile will love God by keeping and loving the laws of God and loving the law giver God. And the only true Jew is one who is born of the Spirit, heart circumcised. The new birth, SANCTIFICATION BEGUN ,THE RADICAL BRAKE WITH SIN, is the theme of chapters 1&2. Justification starts in ch. 3. How can you be soo blind to not see all this in chs. 1&2? because God give us a new nature of holiness of life , to love the laws of God, then God can demand holiness of life in salvation . ch. 2 teaches that if anyone goes to Heaven they must do good works of love to God and people. As Jesus taught in Jh.5:28-29 and all thru the Gospels. May God open you eyes! Love to all. Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin, you missed the clear meaning of the 1st. 2 chapters of Romans. The Gospel is about making sinners holy by the holy calling to obey the faith: the teachings of God. the need is so great it takes the POWER of Grace to do the job. Sinners are only evil with out God's intervention of power, they will never believe the good news. The curse, the wrath of God is on sinners. Only the POWER of God can rescue them, they are dead to righteousness and to God: They do not live the righteous life of faith. Chapter 2 teaches that only the Holy Spirit can change the sinners heart. What natural religious faith the Jew has because of God's revelation to them, can not save them. None of the works of the law can save them. they must be born of God before they can understand or see or enter ,the kingdom of God. The born again Gentile will love God by keeping and loving the laws of God and loving the law giver God. And the only true Jew is one who is born of the Spirit, heart circumcised. The new birth, SANCTIFICATION BEGUN ,THE RADICAL BRAKE WITH SIN, is the theme of chapters 1&2. Justification starts in ch. 3. How can you be soo blind to not see all this in chs. 1&2? because God give us a new nature of holiness of life , to love the laws of God, then God can demand holiness of life in salvation . ch. 2 teaches that if anyone goes to Heaven they must do good works of love to God and people. As Jesus taught in Jh.5:28-29 and all thru the Gospels. May God open you eyes! Love to all. Hoffco

That conclusion is arrived at by altering the grammatical construction of some of Paul's statements
per the Judaizer playbook on the Bible.

I have explained how I have not missed the clear meaning of chps 1-2.

It not falls on you to address my explanations, and show where they depart from the text.

 

[Hoffco]

Elin ,I just SHOWED you where you MISSED the whole teaching of Chs. 1&2 of Romans. it is obvious to all who read this . Please re study these two chs again. Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Elin ,I just SHOWED you where you MISSED the whole teaching of Chs. 1&2 of Romans. it is obvious to all who read this . Please re study these two chs again. Hoffco

No, you did not show anything, you merely asserted it, and without demonstration the assertion has no merit.

So take my explanation and show specifically where it departs from Scripture.

 

[Yahshua]

(Concluding the previous point), Paul says this is why the promise [to inherit the world] needs faith in order to guarantee it with grace (Post #39); for not only (a) the follower of the law but also (b) those who are faithful like Abraham...with God watching, who himself operates through faith:

- To give life to the dead is an act of faith (because there's no prior proof it'll happen)

- To bring into existence something that does not exist is an act of faith (because there's no prior proof it'll happen)


NOTE: In this passage, both the follower of the law (previously referencing Jews in this letter) AND the one who has faith like Abraham are counted together as offspring of Abraham, if they by faith possess the grace to guarantee the promise.

Romans 4:18-22

In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”​

What Paul's Saying...

(Returning to Abraham as the example of the faith that both "law followers" and "the faithful" are to have to be considered his offspring and inheritors of his promise [Post #193]), Paul explains how faith is full, unwavering conviction; pointing out how Abraham's circumstances actually proved *the opposite* of God's promise to him (that he would NOT be the father of many nations)...but Abraham would not waver in his belief that God was able to honor his promise. Thus Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness.


If you agree with this interpretation, “like” it.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.

 

[Hoffco]

OK, Lets work backwards; post205, Yahshua quoted Rom.4:16-17, Please note the phrase, "...God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;" Of course "faith" is involved, and, with "Grace" ,faith is center stage in justification, which is the topic in chps.3,4,5. Justification is God's IMPUTED righteousness to our account in Heaven, based on the blood of Jesus, a gift of grace, not earned, received by faith alone, which is sealed by our outward actions in our lives, for Abraham, it was his act of circumcising himself and all the males associated with him, for us , it would be our confession of Jesus as Savior and Lord and submitting to water baptism and fellowship with the body of Christ. Elin, I hope we agree,so far. NOW, I want to think backward from this phrase: "God who gives life to the dead and calls those things that do not exist as though they did." The meaning of this is explained by the setting of Sarah ,whose womb was dead and God's power of creating an egg within her body so her could conceive a child. I hope you agree. SO , The God who justifies men is the same God who First creats,by His power, spiritual life in them. The miracle of the new birth, which makes "dead" sinners alive to God. eph. chps. 1&2 and Rom. chps. 1&2. the second step in salvation is ADOPTION OR JUSTIFCATION. Love to all ,Hoffco

 

[Elin]

OK, Lets work backwards;

That says it all. . .

No sir, Paul didn't give it backwards, and I don't study it backwards.

That's just more Judaizing the text and changing its order.

You said I didn't understand chps 1 & 2.

Start there, with chp 1.

 

[Hoffco]

Hi yahshua, I just got your last post # 210. It is great, except your point from post #39: "To give life to the dead is an act of faith." God does what He does with or without our faith. Grace creats faith. I'm sure agree with me. Yes, Abraham had the faith in Him at this point in life, so he did not waver from believing God's ability to do the impossible , considering Sarah's dead womb. As I just pointed out in my last post, do you agree with me? That, God's new birth in us sinners is an act of God's power to raise the dead, from spiritual death to spiritual life? And that rom. 1:16 speaks of this power of God in the new birth to believers, yes, but dead believers, in need of spiritual life? Hoffco

 

[Hoffco]

LOL. OK, I worked forward ,then, backward: But you still won't believe in God who raise the Dead, as seen in chps, 1&2 of Romans. I am talking of God spiritually raising sinners who are "dead" in their sins, by His new birth. MAY,"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of your calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His POWER toward us how believe,..." Eph.1:18-19 Hoffco

 

[Elin]

Romans 4:18-22

In hope he believed against hope, that he should become the father of many nations, as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.” He did not weaken in faith when he considered his own body, which was as good as dead (since he was about a hundred years old), or when he considered the barrenness of Sarah's womb. No unbelief made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was “counted to him as righteousness.”​

What Paul's Saying...

(Returning to Abraham as the example of the faith that both "law followers" and "the faithful" are to have to be considered his offspring and inheritors of his promise [Post #193]), Paul explains how faith is full, unwavering conviction; pointing out how Abraham's circumstances actually proved *the opposite* of God's promise to him (that he would NOT be the father of many nations)...but Abraham would not waver in his belief that God was able to honor his promise. Thus Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness.


If you agree with this interpretation, “like” it.

If you disagree with this interpretation, post an alternative for others to agree with.

If you’d like further elaboration of an interpretation, feel free to ask.

Alternative.

First, thanks for staying with the stuff.

1) But your accuracy is somewhat loose.

"the promise comes by faith so that it may be by grace (not works) and may be guaranteed
to all Abraham's offspring." (v.16)

Note the causality between faith and the guarantee.
Their relationship is not incidental.

If receiving the promise depends on obedience, its reception can fail and, therefore, cannot be guaranteed.

"Law followers" refers to Jewish Christians who had the law, while
"those who are of the faith of Abraham" refers to Gentile Christians who share Abraham's faith, but
who, like Abraham, do not possess the law.

2) I would say that Abraham's circumstances didn't prove anything,
other than his hope could not be in any human possibility,
but had to be in God, therefore, he did not waiver through unbelief.

And so, yes, Paul shows one more time that righteousness (justification) is by faith with no works involved.

 

[Elin]

LOL. OK, I worked forward ,then, backward: But you still won't believe in God who raise the Dead, as seen in chps, 1&2 of Romans. I am talking of God spiritually raising sinners who are "dead" in their sins, by His new birth. MAY,"The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that you may know what is the hope of your calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of His POWER toward us how believe,..." Eph.1:18-19

Are you going to show where my understanding of Ro 1-2 departs from the text?

 

[Yahshua]

Hi yahshua, I just got your last post # 210. It is great, except your point from post #39: "To give life to the dead is an act of faith." God does what He does with or without our faith. Grace creats faith. I'm sure agree with me. Yes, Abraham had the faith in Him at this point in life, so he did not waver from believing God's ability to do the impossible , considering Sarah's dead womb.

Oh no, no Hoffco I'm sorry I wasn't clear (in Post #193). I should have been more specific. No I wasn't saying God needs our faith. Truly God doesn't need our faith to exercise his power. No I was referring to the operation of faith (itself), specifically viewing it from God's POV and showing how *HE* acts in his *own* faithfulness to raise the dead. I was taking that opportunity to show how faith is "full conviction of a truth, *before* the evidence for it exists", showing this is how God operates; "calling those things that are not as though they were" (Romans 4:17).

As I just pointed out in my last post, do you agree with me? That, God's new birth in us sinners is an act of God's power to raise the dead, from spiritual death to spiritual life? And that rom. 1:16 speaks of this power of God in the new birth to believers, yes, but dead believers, in need of spiritual life? Hoffco

I think Romans 6 says something almost exactly like that...but I'm trying not to skip ahead because I need the context to prove it, thought by thought. I think we'll get there before the day is through...but one thing that takes time is going back through posts and linking previous points Paul references in his new thought so that readers can better see context (at least by my interpretation), so it's been slow going. Elin DID warn me this would be a long thread (lol) but I'm committed.

I've been walking this letter out; studying right along with you guys because I want to make sure of exactly what Romans is saying; and seeing where we all disagree along the way (to debate in other threads). So again I appreciate all of the contributions to alternative interpretations. I do read through them all (as I hope most do)...but I skip over any debates lol.

---

A reminder to all; feel free to "like" the interpretation you believe is best, whichever one it is...and if you don't see an adequate interpretation post one of your own. I wanted this thread to be as neutral a study is possible. There have been some things revealed to me that I never considered.

 

[Hoffco]

HI, sister Elin, I am tempted to "forget it" LOL; But I will try again, it is good for me to learn patience and endurance, since God tells us to imitate Abraham ,who by faith and patience inherited the promise. It is good for others to see two mature Christians "battle" out their differences in love. You teach that justification starts in Rom.1:16 or 17 and there is nothing of sanctification in chps 1&2. This is a common error of most all teachers, so you have lots of company in you error. I am trying to get the church to see the apostasy of their doctrine of salvation today. I see sanctification, the new birth, starting 1:5-6. "Through Him (Jesus) we (apostles) have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith (Christianity) among all nations for His name, among whom, you also are the called (born again) of Jesus Christ; To all who are in Rome. beloved of God, called (born again)to be saints:..." I'm not sure if you believe the Bible's teaching of "effectual calling": I do. 1 Cor. 1 is full of effectual calling. I just counted 6 times the words, called, calling, are used as meaning an "effectual" call to salvation, equivalent to the new birth. For those who want to learn, I will continue. To what are sinners "called" to? We are called to be "saints", holy persons who obey God. Now, in 1:16, the gospel is the POWER of God to one who believes. This Greek word for power, gives us our Eng. word ,dynamite, the ability to do work. This is ample proof to show that ch1 of Romans is talking of the new birth, in which, God's power creates in us the righteous new heart that is the bases of all our good works and our holy living in the holiness of God. this is the base on which God can call us to "be holy as I am holy", God is relying on our new nature, heart, to obey Him. And we naturally obey because we are new creatures in Christ. Now, the Gentile in 2:13-14 would "naturally" "instinctively" do the law of God, only if they are born again. And ch.2:29 ends with the new birth, Jew. Therefore, we must conclude , chaps. 1&2 are taking about sanctification/ the new birth. May God bless, Hoffco

 

[Elin]

HI, sister Elin, I am tempted to "forget it" LOL; But I will try again, it is good for me to learn patience and endurance, since God tells us to imitate Abraham ,who by faith and patience inherited the promise. It is good for others to see two mature Christians "battle" out their differences in love. You teach that justification starts in Rom.1:16 or 17 and there is nothing of sanctification in chps 1&2.

This is a common error of most all teachers, so you have lots of company in you error. I am trying to get the church to see the apostasy of their doctrine of salvation today. I see sanctification, the new birth, starting 1:5-6.

"Through Him (Jesus) we (apostles) have received grace and apostleship

for obedience to the faith (Christianity) among all the nations."

The Greek reads:

"Through Him we have received grace and apostleship to obedience of faith among all the nations."

The meaning is somewhat different.

And you are also confusing the salutations of Paul's letters with the doctrinal instruction of Paul's letters.

Sanctification is in Paul's salutation, wherein he first references himself and his commission from Christ,
which is to bring men among all nations to the obedience of faith through preaching the gospel.

And the second part of Paul's salutations reference the recipients of the letter, those called to be saints.

But every gospel truth stated in his salutations are not the subject of his doctrinal instruction.

They are salutations only, as were common in his day.

We do not find Paul returning to the content of his salutation anywhere in chps 1-2,
because the doctrinal instruction of his letter is on righteousness:

from God - "imputed" in justification (3:21-5:21) and "imparted" in sanctification (chps 6-8), and

of God - in his actions.

among all nations for His name, among whom, you also are the called (born again) of Jesus Christ; To all who are in Rome. beloved of God, called (born again)to be saints:..." I'm not sure if you believe the Bible's teaching of "effectual calling": I do. 1 Cor. 1 is full of effectual calling. I just counted 6 times the words, called, calling, are used as meaning an "effectual" call to salvation, equivalent to the new birth. For those who want to learn, I will continue. To what are sinners "called" to? We are called to be "saints", holy persons who obey God. Now, in 1:16, the gospel is the POWER of God to one who believes. This Greek word for power, gives us our Eng. word ,dynamite, the ability to do work. This is ample proof to show that ch1 of Romans is talking of the new birth, in which, God's power creates in us the righteous new heart that is the bases of all our good works and our holy living in the holiness of God. this is the base on which God can call us to "be holy as I am holy", God is relying on our new nature, heart, to obey Him. And we naturally obey because we are new creatures in Christ. Now, the Gentile in 2:13-14 would "naturally" "instinctively" do the law of God, only if they are born again. And ch.2:29 ends with the new birth, Jew. Therefore, we must conclude , chaps. 1&2 are taking about sanctification/ the new birth.

You are all over the map regarding chps 1-2. . .from new birth, to calling, to sanctification,
to new creatures. . .everything but the one thing on which Paul is instructing: righteousness.

 

[Hoffco]

Interresting, You know more about how to write God's word than God does.You are telling God! that the material YOU put in the intro of YOUR book can not be doctrinal. It cannot be about the main subject of YOUR book. I have news for you The first chapters of all of pauls letters are heavy Doctrinal. But you are getting better,WOW" " Sanctification is in Paul's salutation " this is GREAT, good progress, and ch.2 is totally about holy living , only born again holy persons are going to be Justified, sanct. in contrast to the false hypocritical Jews. So, ch 2 is about Sanct. and Justi.. And you said. Paul doesn't return to the subject of his salutation until 6-8. good statement of truth. thankyou. SOO. you are begining to see that Sanctification is a major theme in Romans, Some don't see that. Hoffco