The Letter to the Romans...

[Yahshua]

According to whom is Paul an apostle?

Hey Jag, I posted below what I'm trying to do here.

[...] just as a reminder if you disagree with an interpretation of a passage please feel free to give your alternative (in simple terms as best as possible). It's not only my hope to establish an unbroken chain of context but for all of us to see where our disagreements exist so we can - at least - speak to them specifically like in a new thread or something.

Here's a link to the OP if you'd like to know what I'm trying to do.

If any debates develop please transfer them to a new thread for me, as I want this to be primarily a read/study of Romans.

Thanks again!

So feel free to make your question it's own thread...I wouldn't mind chiming in.

 

[Yahshua]

Paul says because it’s faith that justifies us some may argue to do away with The Law, but Paul emphatically denounces such an idea. (In context to what Paul says in Post #9, #10, & #12) Paul says we maintain The Law (because as he said earlier, it’s “obeying the law” that makes us righteous)...we simply can’t do that without Christ’s grace, which alone comes from having faith in him.

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Ephesians 2:8 - Salvation is by Grace through faith in Christ​

1. post #37: Faith in Christ...

2. Christ’s gift of Grace...

3. Post #2: Grace is the Christ's power to be obedient to God...

4. Post #36: Obedience to God's Law is righteousness...

5. Post #10: As all will be judged based on their works

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The law of God is the “lock”...Christ’s grace is the “key”...and our faith is how we receive that key. And when we use it we are freed from our bondage to sin and finally able to be obedient to God.

Romans 4:1-3

What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.”​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul then begins an analysis of Abraham as an example of his previous point (post #37: Justification by faith) and questions whether Abraham's justification was because of his actions (i.e. "works") or his faith. In other words, Paul is asking what was the *source* of Abraham's righteousness...and notes that scripture says it was Abraham's belief (faith).


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[chubbena]

So grace is defined as the power to be obedient...a power that is Christ’s alone.

I'm not saying it's wrong but I don't see this in the context.
I see grace as an unmerited favor of and a gift from God which is free for us but it's not free and obedience comes from faith. And faith can be rejected by man c.f. 1 Tim 1:19.
Using Israelites in Egypt as an example. Yahweh owed that generation in Egypt nothing. He rescued them out of Egypt not because of their merits but because of His promise to their forefathers. He then promised them the land of Canaan. By faith they could enter but they didn’t because of disobedience. The next generation entered, not because of their merits but because of His promise to their forefathers. Applying to us. Yahweh owed us nothing. He rescued us out of the bondage of sin not because of our merits but because of His promise to “our” forefathers. He promises everlasting life. By faith we could enter – and obedience proves our faith.

 

[john832]

Romans 2:14-16

For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. ​

What Paul's Saying...

(Paul continuing with the last point) when gentiles - who are not aware of God’s law - naturally obey something in God’s law (found in their hearts), *that* becomes the law Christ will judge them by on the last day, even though they may not be totally aware of God’s law...because at least to that extent they know right from wrong.


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I do disagree with this. Today is not the only day of salvation, it is A day of salvation...

Isa 49:8 Thus says the LORD: "In an acceptable time I have heard You, And in the day of salvation I have helped You; I will preserve You and give You As a covenant to the people, To restore the earth, To cause them to inherit the desolate heritages;

There are those who have not had their day, yet. People in China 4000 years ago never heard the name of Jesus Christ...

Act 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

There is a second resurrection for these people who have not had a chance. They will be given 100 years of human life again but this time they will hear the truth and know who Christ is and have a chance to accept salvation. If they do not, then it is curtains.

Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.

The books (all 66 of 'em - see Mat 13:11-16) will be opened to them. This is a Divine miracle that must take place in every single mind before they are judged. It had to occur in the mind of the disciples in Christ's day (Luke 24:45).

 

[john832]

I disagree in that if one dosent know parts those parts are void. That would be impartial judgement, and therefore the less one knew the easier their path would be.

This is one of the foundations of my belief in a second resurrection for those whom God has not called or opened their mind to the truth in this age. There are those whom God has deliberately blinded in this age so that He may have mercy on them in a coming resurrection...

Rom 11:7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
Rom 11:8 Just as it is written: "GOD HAS GIVEN THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES THAT THEY SHOULD NOT SEE AND EARS THAT THEY SHOULD NOT HEAR, TO THIS VERY DAY."
Rom 11:9 And David says: "LET THEIR TABLE BECOME A SNARE AND A TRAP, A STUMBLING BLOCK AND A RECOMPENSE TO THEM.
Rom 11:10 LET THEIR EYES BE DARKENED, SO THAT THEY DO NOT SEE, AND BOW DOWN THEIR BACK ALWAYS."
Rom 11:11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles.

Rom 11:32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all.

This looks forward to a time in the future when God will have mercy on them, open their eyes and give them an opportunity.

 

[john832]

some people have diminished capacity, was born that way, therefore cannot fully comprehend. yet some i have seen of this nature are gentle as lambs, love life and love everybody. surely they are innocent.

See the above posts (44 & 45).

 

[john832]

He also is indicating and stressing importance to sow and reap from both the Greek and the nnn-Greek here, which I am considering to be the Greek and the Jew, only because of habitual reference to these as the nations and the Jews. Byi a big stretch it could mean the Greek and the non-Greek (Roman), but that is a distortion, it is certain.

Not necessarily, the non Greeks can also be those of Gentile descent who are not Greeks...

Rom 1:14 I am a debtor both to Greeks and to barbarians, both to wise and to unwise.

The Barbarians are those not of the Greek culture and not of the Jewish culture. The Greeks are the ones Paul refers to as wise.

 

[john832]

Romans 3:3-4

What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,
“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”​

What Paul's Saying...

(Continuing) and if the Jews are unfaithful (in context of the hypocrisy he’s been discussing unfaithful means “disobedient to God by breaking his law”), it doesn’t negate God’s faithfulness, as God’s word is shown as true.


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Another point imbedded here is the faithfulness that the Jews have shown in preserving the oracles of God, not only the Holy Scripture, but also what we understand about he calendar etc.

 

[chubbena]

Romans 1:8-15

....in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles.....​

What does it mean?

​

 

[Yahshua]

Romans 1:8-15

...that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles... ​

What does it mean?

I think context is found a few lines earlier in the same passage where Paul says "that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine.

A "harvest" is reaped from the work provided. Paul was eager to see the harvest of believers which would strengthen his own faith even more. Like a return on investment of faith.

 

[JaumeJ]

It is also that the harvest will happen at one time, so any workers in the field (the world) are preparing good grains for that time..Like you do.........

I think context is found a few lines earlier in the same passage where Paul says "that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine.

A "harvest" is reaped from the work provided. Paul was eager to see the harvest of believers which would strengthen his own faith even more. Like a return on investment of faith.

 

[john832]

It is also that the harvest will happen at one time, so any workers in the field (the world) are preparing good grains for that time..Like you do.........

This is in accordance to Christ's teaching about the harvest being at one time...

Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

 

[JaumeJ]

This sounds so unfair, but after years of meditation and contemplation I see it to be so wonderful for all concerned, and very fair, not that I could ever be in a position to question the wisdom of Our Lord, but, being honest, that is how I did feel for some time. Nope, it is just, good, and fair, because God is always good, amen. Thank you John...

This is in accordance to Christ's teaching about the harvest being at one time...

Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

 

[Elin]

Romans 1:1-6

Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, which he promised beforehand through his prophets in the holy Scriptures, concerning his Son, who was descended from David according to the flesh and was declared to be the Son of God in power according to the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faithfor the sake of his name among all the nations, including you who are called to belong to Jesus Christ,​

What Paul's Saying...

So Paul introduces himself, acknowledges his calling, and our calling to preach “the gospel” to the nations which was promised in the Old Testament (what he calls Holy Scripture); and the gospel is “we have received grace from Christ for obedience of faith”. So grace is defined as the power to be obedient...a power that is Christ’s alone.


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Alternative.

The gospel is: Christ is declared to be the Son of God. . .by his resurrection from the dead.

Grace is: given to Paul to bring about in others the obedience of faith, through his preaching.

In this statement, grace is working in Paul through his preaching, to bring about in others the obedience of faith.

 

[Elin]

Romans 1:7

To all those in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. ​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul then speaks this same grace & peace to the believers in Rome.

Alternative.

Paul is not referring to the same grace that was given to him to preach effectively.

He is referring to God's unmerited favor toward them.

 

[Elin]

Romans 1:8-15

First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed in all the world. For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I mention you always in my prayers, asking that somehow by God's will I may now at last succeed in coming to you. For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift to strengthen you— that is, that we may be mutually encouraged by each other's faith, both yours and mine. I do not want you to be unaware, brothers, that I have often intended to come to you (but thus far have been prevented), in order that I may reap some harvest among you as well as among the rest of the Gentiles. I am under obligation both to Greeks and to non-Greeks, both to the wise and to the foolish. So I am eager to preach the gospel to you also who are in Rome. ​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul desires to meet with them in person so they can strengthen each other’s faith and so he can preach “the gospel” to them face to face...but obligations have delayed him.

And prays for them unceasingly.

 

[Elin]

Romans 1:16-17

For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, “The righteous shall live by faith.” ​

What Paul's Saying...

A few thoughts ago (in post #2) Paul said that the gospel is “grace from Christ to be obedient”. Now Paul says the gospel is “the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes”. So in context, the Power of God for Salvation IS the grace to be obedient...that is the power...offered to anyone who believes. And in it [in the grace to be obedient] the righteousness of God is found from faith, fulfilling scripture.


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Alternative.

Grace is given to Paul to preach the gospel effectively; i.e., to bring about the obedience of faith in others.

The gospel is: Christ is declared to be the Son of God by the power of God in Christ's resurrection from the dead.

The same resurrection power of God also raises from spiritual death (salvation) all those who believe.

Not ashamed that it is based on Christ's death as a criminal.

 

[Elin]

Romans 1:18-23

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. ​

What Paul's Saying...

Unlike those who are found righteous in their obedience to God through the power of grace by faith in Christ (which is “the gospel message”), the unrighteous suppress this truth and worship idols instead of giving God glory. But they have *no excuse* for their unrighteousness because God makes his divine nature known by all that he has made.


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Alternative.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven in God's turning the wicked over to sin,
because the existence of God; i.e., his eternal power and divine nature, are evident in creation,
and they are without excuse for not glorifying him and giving thanks to him as God.

The text is not referring in any way to any kind of righteousness.

 

[Elin]

Romans 1:24-25

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. ​

What Paul's Saying...

So the unrighteous are punished for being *disobedient* (i.e. knowing the truth but not acting on it). They’re enslaved by the lusts of their flesh.


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Alternative.

God allowed the sin of the wicked to run its course into depravity of worship and depravity of lust as an act of judgment jon their sin.

The punishment (unbridled sin) fit the crime (deliberate sin).

 

[Elin]

Romans 1:26-32

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. ​

What Paul's Saying...

Paul then goes into details of the punishment on The Unrighteous (i.e. those who are disobedient to God, knowing the truth but still choosing not to act on it and instead teaching others not to as well). God gives them over to “filthy passions” and “debased minds”...to drown in; to be consumed by them.


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The disobedience of the pagans who did not have special revelation of Israel was failure to glorify him as God or give thanks to him.