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S
Saved_Forever
Guest
Then the answer is simple. You will forever and always be lost. Been down that road many times with you and you still refuse to study it in whole. No thanks. Once in a rut, always in a rut. It will take a miracle to deviate from that. You let me know when you are serious enough to put your beliefs aside and try new things openly although I doubt that will happen.
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Likewise Friend. Email me if you want. Let's respect GRA's wishes to keep this thread on topic.
S
Saved_Forever
Guest
Just make sure you understand me correctly. I have changed many times because I was told I was wrong. I listened very carefully to why they said so, studied it WITHOUT trying to force MY beliefs on top of theirs.
This is VERY IMPORTANT!!!! I will NEVER understand what the messenger is talking about IF I keep clouding HIS issues with mine. I want to know WHY he said so and so. I want to know where he got it, why he got it and I want it backed up where there is no question about it. However, sometimes (like most all the time) you just have to accept something while not really understanding it at first. You need to assume this is correct and test it to see where it leads you. That is the most toughest thing to do. If it doesn't fit right away, it must be wrong. Not necessarily. What you think is wrong just might be very right and you will never see it because you trash canned it because it didn't fit what you think it should be. If it is correct, that means you need to redo everything around it and people just don't like to do that! Extra work, you know.
Can you tell what a 1,000 piece picture puzzle will look like with just 50 pieces? You don't even have the box top to see what the finished product will look like. It will be hard pressed to tell me what it is. You must build it up piece by piece. Trial and error. Take chances and try new possibilities.
Has anyone here ever tried using years instead of days? Why not? How do you know it won't work if you never tried it yet? God's plan takes a long time to develop and the things Jesus has said in this thread, Matt 24, (that is if you believe none or not much of the stuff written in Matt 24 hasn't happened yet) is 2,000 years old by now and we're still waiting on it. Are you (this is for the one's waiting for the 7 years to commence) that no prophecies occurred between Jesus and now? Prophecy was getting fulfilled right under our noses and yet we never see them even if it is in plain sight! Why? Because we choose not to look for them. Sad, but true.
I agree with the thrust of your post but unsure what it is that you think I have so wrong??
I know 1,000 years on earth is as a day to the Lord. I get that. Peter teaches us this. To me this means the 1,000 years of Christ's reign on earth lasts just one day in heaven.
I do not believe that I ever stated all or most of the Olivet Discourse takes place in the future. But I don't believe all or most of it took place around AD 70 either. First, Revelation is widely believed to have been written in AD 95-96 long after the AD 70 events. Secondly, 4 disciples specifically asked for the signs of the end of the age. I do believe the Lord starts off discussing AD 70 temple events then jumps ahead a bit to the 19th century, 20th century then really focuses on the future events, the Tribulation, which precede His return.
After the letters to the 7 churches which had both contemporary and futuristic meaning, John describes the Seals. These Seals are opened over a long period of time. The 1st seal opens around 960 AD with the Catholic Church giving the Pope his first "crown." The 2nd Seal opens in the mid 1800s with the Communist Manifesto. The third seal begins around 1918 shortly after WWI with Wall Street supplanting London as the Financial Capital of the World. Thus Capitalism began being a dominant political system. The fourth seal was opened on 9/11/2001 as Islam becomes a world threat. All four seals dominate the current world religious and political beliefs which all wars in the past 1-2 centuries have been based.
So horses 1 and 4 represent the two biggest world religions while horses 2 and 3 represent the biggest political systems. We see with Babylon, the Mother of all Harots the union of all 4 into a new Global Geo-Political Religious System. The scarlet beast means in the end socialism or communism will take over capitalism as the dominate political/economic system. With Obama, can there be any doubt that the US is now more of a socialist government than a capitalist government?
One area where I am still unsure is Dan 9:27. I am on the fence on this being future or past. But I am solidly believing that there will be a 3-1/2 year Tribulation to come and see it as near future.
After the letters to the 7 churches which had both contemporary and futuristic meaning, John describes the Seals. These Seals are opened over a long period of time. The 1st seal opens around 960 AD with the Catholic Church giving the Pope his first "crown." The 2nd Seal opens in the mid 1800s with the Communist Manifesto. The third seal begins around 1918 shortly after WWI with Wall Street supplanting London as the Financial Capital of the World. Thus Capitalism began being a dominant political system. The fourth seal was opened on 9/11/2001 as Islam becomes a world threat. All four seals dominate the current world religious and political beliefs which all wars in the past 1-2 centuries have been based.
So horses 1 and 4 represent the two biggest world religions while horses 2 and 3 represent the biggest political systems. We see with Babylon, the Mother of all Harots the union of all 4 into a new Global Geo-Political Religious System. The scarlet beast means in the end socialism or communism will take over capitalism as the dominate political/economic system. With Obama, can there be any doubt that the US is now more of a socialist government than a capitalist government?
One area where I am still unsure is Dan 9:27. I am on the fence on this being future or past. But I am solidly believing that there will be a 3-1/2 year Tribulation to come and see it as near future.
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G
GRA
Guest
I really appreciate seeing someone write this...Just make sure you understand me correctly. I have changed many times because I was told I was wrong. I listened very carefully to why they said so, studied it WITHOUT trying to force MY beliefs on top of theirs. {}
This is VERY IMPORTANT!!!! I will NEVER understand what the messenger is talking about IF I keep clouding HIS issues with mine. I want to know WHY he said so and so. I want to know where he got it, why he got it and I want it backed up where there is no question about it. However, sometimes (like most all the time) you just have to accept something while not really understanding it at first. You need to assume this is correct and test it to see where it leads you. That is the most toughest thing to do. If it doesn't fit right away, it must be wrong. Not necessarily. What you think is wrong just might be very right and you will never see it because you trash canned it because it didn't fit what you think it should be. If it is correct, that means you need to redo everything around it and people just don't like to do that! Extra work, you know.
Can you tell what a 1,000 piece picture puzzle will look like with just 50 pieces? You don't even have the box top to see what the finished product will look like. It will be hard pressed to tell me what it is. You must build it up piece by piece. Trial and error. Take chances and try new possibilities.
Has anyone here ever tried using years instead of days? Why not? How do you know it won't work if you never tried it yet? God's plan takes a long time to develop and the things Jesus has said in this thread, Matt 24, (that is if you believe none or not much of the stuff written in Matt 24 hasn't happened yet) is 2,000 years old by now and we're still waiting on it. Are you (this is for the one's waiting for the 7 years to commence) that no prophecies occurred between Jesus and now? Prophecy was getting fulfilled right under our noses and yet we never see them even if it is in plain sight! Why? Because we choose not to look for them. Sad, but true.
My initial idea for all three of my 'study' threads was to "present the study" in a step-by-step explanatory method - how I arrived at the conclusions that I had in these studies. Until I could find / make the time to do so - I thought it might be useful to let everyone view the 'charts' that I had made for each -- so that people could have a "pre-view"...
Well -- between not seeming to be able to do such -- and, because people did not seem to REALLY be interested in trying to understand it from my perspective -- I got very discouraged, and essentially "gave up on it"... ( the "present the study" part )
It has become very difficult to convince myself that I should spend so much time and energy - that I don't really have that much of - trying to explain . . . if all they want to do is "trash-talk" it...
I believe that the 'seals' have "unfolded slowly" over the past ~2000 years even to this time and continuing until the Second Coming of Christ.
I believe that the 'trumpets' will "unfold" in a considerally shorter period of time - no less than 3.5 years, but could be a bit longer.
I believe that the 'vials' will "unfold" in a very short period of time - hours to days - at the Second Coming of Christ.
S
Saved_Forever
Guest
This is the exact problem we have. YOU THINK you will have a 1,000 year period. Is that what God wants or is it what you want? If you apply a little more study on this, you too will discover that this can never happen. Build your puzzle one piece at a time. The Bible is so clear to me at this current time. I don't know anything that will happen next year because we aren't there yet. I don't even know if we have a year left!
There is NO WAY anybody can tell me this and that will happen in the future in reference to specifics for I will not believe it until it happens! That is, IF it happens. Which it probably won't happen.
This, by all means, is not insulting to your intelligence. You just need to retrain your thinking in Bible reading to a Spiritual way of thinking. I promise you, you'll get it and when you do, you'll slap yourself in the face and probably say, "Why didn't I see that?!?" The reason why you can't see certain passages is because you're thinking carnally! I know because I did that too. I used to read the Bible with logic on my brain. It had to physically make sense but the more I read it, the more it didn't make logical and physical sense. God is interested in the Spiritual side of things! That's why He supplies you with the things you NEED, not WANT!! You need food and water. God supplies that need for you to live.
When you invite Jesus Christ into your life, Jesus helps you grow spiritually. To grow spiritually, you need to read the Bible spiritually.
S
Saved_Forever
Guest
Hey!! No problem! I have no intention to change the coarse of this thread.I really appreciate seeing someone write this...
My initial idea for all three of my 'study' threads was to "present the study" in a step-by-step explanatory method - how I arrived at the conclusions that I had in these studies. Until I could find / make the time to do so - I thought it might be useful to let everyone view the 'charts' that I had made for each -- so that people could have a "pre-view"...
Well -- between not seeming to be able to do such -- and, because people did not seem to REALLY be interested in trying to understand it from my perspective -- I got very discouraged, and essentially "gave up on it"... ( the "present the study" part )
It has become very difficult to convince myself that I should spend so much time and energy - that I don't really have that much of - trying to explain . . . if all they want to do is "trash-talk" it...
I believe that the 'seals' have "unfolded slowly" over the past ~2000 years even to this time and continuing until the Second Coming of Christ.
I believe that the 'trumpets' will "unfold" in a considerally shorter period of time - no less than 3.5 years, but could be a bit longer.
I believe that the 'vials' will "unfold" in a very short period of time - hours to days - at the Second Coming of Christ.
And thank you. I really think we should carefully read what God has in plan for us with the OD of Matt 24! Not what I or anybody else wants it to be!
Carry on, my friend......Carry on!
Excellent thread BTW!
G
GRA
Guest
The first "clue" is that verse 1 is written in the present tense -- it is literal and actual -- during the revelation experience of John.
John recorded that he was given a reed... ( i.e., "it was actually handed to him" )
What temple was he instructed to measure at that time?
At the word 'and' in verse 2, the time "focus" changes from present to future. ( from John's point of view )
The first "clue" is that verse 1 is written in the present tense -- it is literal and actual -- during the revelation experience of John.
John recorded that he was given a reed... ( i.e., "it was actually handed to him" )
What temple was he instructed to measure at that time?
At the word 'and' in verse 2, the time "focus" changes from present to future. ( from John's point of view )
Is John seeing a vision or was he actually taken to heaven? John tells us in Rev 1 that he was in the Spirit:
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,
Now look ahead to Rev 4 after the messages to the 7 churches:
1 After this I looked , and, behold , a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said , Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Note that John is actually in Spirit in heaven seeing things which must be hereafter. I take this to mean everything from this point forward is future to John. We know John wrote Revelation from Patmos and most scholars put the time around AD 95, which is a good 25 years after the destruction of the 2nd temple. Thus John was in the future measuring a future temple. In fact almost everything John saw from this point forward was future. Don't you agree?
But hey, I'm not willing to die on there being a future temple "hill." I am open to the Lord returning to Mount Zion. It is a very Holy Place and we know He stands there with the 144K. We also know He splits the Mount of Olives and goes through the sealed East Gate of Jerusalem that leads straight to the Temple Mount too.
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GRA
Guest
I believe the actual conversation being had was - to John - in the present - at the time... Don't you?
G
GRA
Guest
If I tell you about something that is going to happen next week - I am speaking of the future.
If I hand you a ruler and tell you to measure something - I am speaking of the present.
Whatever temple John was told to measure -- it had to exist at that time - somewhere - earth, heaven, or "being shown to John in the vision"...
I seriously doubt it was heaven - verse 2 does away with that.
If I hand you a ruler and tell you to measure something - I am speaking of the present.
Whatever temple John was told to measure -- it had to exist at that time - somewhere - earth, heaven, or "being shown to John in the vision"...
I seriously doubt it was heaven - verse 2 does away with that.
No, the temple was not in heaven, I think it will be in earth because Gentiles aren't going to be walking around outside in heaven for 42 months. Consider also that when Christ returns he enters through the Eastern Gate of the Temple Mount. This gate his been sealed for 2,000 years. If there is no temple on the Temple Mount, why go there? It is full of Muslims and the Dome of the Rock.If I tell you about something that is going to happen next week - I am speaking of the future.
If I hand you a ruler and tell you to measure something - I am speaking of the present.
Whatever temple John was told to measure -- it had to exist at that time - somewhere - earth, heaven, or "being shown to John in the vision"...
I seriously doubt it was heaven - verse 2 does away with that.
John was taken into the future and shown visions. I don't think John actually measured the future temple, I think it was said figuratively, letting us know there will be a new temple, I don't know. Maybe we are told just to give us the information about the Gentiles being there for 42 months but they are there now.
But John never gives the measurements of the temple or alter or people worshiping there so how do we know he actually measured it? Jesus calls it a "Holy Place" but Paul calls it a "temple." To be honest, I haven't studied this issue deep enough to have a concrete position.
gra,i have read much of what you have posted here and in your other post(a curiosity of the same subject on my part,so i find other ideas helpful),,,its my manner of thinking from rev.1;19,,,so for instance lets say (ad96,i know there's a lot of debate on the correct date of writing,but just for an example)
so using ad 96,,,,Christ said to john,,,
(1)things thou hast seen(past tense to john while he was alive in ad96)
(2)the things which are(present tense to john while he was alive in ad 96)
(3)things which shall be hereafter(future tense to john while he was alive in ad96)
now to me it wouldn't make sense to think that (1)things that thou hast seen to be in reference to "the vision he was seeing of Revelation" because he(Christ) uses the term "hast seen" in the same paragraph in connection with the two other "time frames present and future",,so it seems clear that in this verse he is referring to the past tense in aspect to the life time of john when he states "thou hast seen".
so to me past Christ establishing this to john he then is directing him to write "three sets of things he is about to give him in the Revelation. ,,,,
so the three in aspect to john while alive on patmos would be,,,one set of things he is instructed to write that had already taken place some where for the creation up to that exact point in time,two the things that were taking place in the history of the world at the exact time the Revelation was being given to john,and then the third set of things being given to him(john) that were future tense from the Revelation being given to him in ad96.
i do apologize for asking you here in this thread,i was following the last few post between you and the others in one of the threads you have started you may have already discussed his and i may have missed it if you could direct me to it? to it seems clear by the statement in rev. 1;19 that in or around ad96 one third of the Revelation had already taken place,one third of the Revelation was taking place when this was given to john,which would only leave "one third of the Revelation to still be fulfilled between the Revelation of Christ till the (end?)
i realize that most believe to account for the events described in the Revelation given through John from the time given until now but it as i say seems clear that according to Christ comment that, that would be contrary to the comment made by Christ to john in rev.1;19 ,,,i do apologize again if i am asking this off comment,,,
so using ad 96,,,,Christ said to john,,,
(1)things thou hast seen(past tense to john while he was alive in ad96)
(2)the things which are(present tense to john while he was alive in ad 96)
(3)things which shall be hereafter(future tense to john while he was alive in ad96)
now to me it wouldn't make sense to think that (1)things that thou hast seen to be in reference to "the vision he was seeing of Revelation" because he(Christ) uses the term "hast seen" in the same paragraph in connection with the two other "time frames present and future",,so it seems clear that in this verse he is referring to the past tense in aspect to the life time of john when he states "thou hast seen".
so to me past Christ establishing this to john he then is directing him to write "three sets of things he is about to give him in the Revelation. ,,,,
so the three in aspect to john while alive on patmos would be,,,one set of things he is instructed to write that had already taken place some where for the creation up to that exact point in time,two the things that were taking place in the history of the world at the exact time the Revelation was being given to john,and then the third set of things being given to him(john) that were future tense from the Revelation being given to him in ad96.
i do apologize for asking you here in this thread,i was following the last few post between you and the others in one of the threads you have started you may have already discussed his and i may have missed it if you could direct me to it? to it seems clear by the statement in rev. 1;19 that in or around ad96 one third of the Revelation had already taken place,one third of the Revelation was taking place when this was given to john,which would only leave "one third of the Revelation to still be fulfilled between the Revelation of Christ till the (end?)
i realize that most believe to account for the events described in the Revelation given through John from the time given until now but it as i say seems clear that according to Christ comment that, that would be contrary to the comment made by Christ to john in rev.1;19 ,,,i do apologize again if i am asking this off comment,,,
G
GRA
Guest
Revelation 1:
[SUP]2[/SUP] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
[SUP]11[/SUP] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
[SUP]19[/SUP] Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Revelation 4:
[SUP]1[/SUP] After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
I do not believe that verse 19 is in a context of world history or John's life; rather, the context of it is the "revelation experience" / "vision" itself.
It is not a matter of "past, present, and future" in John's life or the time it was received and written; rather, it was a matter of time frame within the scenario that was unfolding.
I believe that the "answer to the question" lies simply in what was actually written.
( i.e. - what John wrote in response to the 'directive' of verse 19 )
If you were to "split up the book" by the three phrases of verse 19, you would have:
[TABLE="width: 500, align: left"]
[TR]
[TD]which thou hast seen[/TD]
[TD]Chapter 1[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]which are[/TD]
[TD]Chapters 2-3[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]which shall be hereafter[/TD]
[TD]Chapters 4-22[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
( generally speaking -- the beginning verses of chapter 1 and the ending verses of chapter 22 are somewhat of a "special case" - being a "mixture" of 'which thou hast seen' and 'which are'. )
Why did you not just start a new thread??? I would think that a discussion of Revelation 1:19 would certainly deserve its own thread...
I find it more than interesting, call it compelling that the Lord starts off with a warning. This warning is to NOT BE DECEIVED by any false Christs. In fact, this is Jesus' theme throughout the Discourse.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately , saying , Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Let's look at all the times Jesus warns us about false Christs up to the end of the Tribulation and the implications to those who fail to heed the warning. Jesus starts out talking about the Deception right out the gate!!
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying , I am Christ; and shall deceive many.9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended , and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise , and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound , the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth , let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be . 22 And except those days should be shortened , there should no flesh be saved : but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened . 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo , here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold , I have told you before . 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold , he is in the desert; go not forth : behold , he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
19 out of 23 verses from the question to verse 26 deal with deception of False Christs. Can there be any doubt that the focus of the Tribulation will be deception by Satan? Good thing all Christians are going to get raptured away rending most of this lesson completely meaningless to us all.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately , saying , Tell us, when shall these things be ? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Let's look at all the times Jesus warns us about false Christs up to the end of the Tribulation and the implications to those who fail to heed the warning. Jesus starts out talking about the Deception right out the gate!!
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying , I am Christ; and shall deceive many.9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many be offended , and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall rise , and shall deceive many. 12 And because iniquity shall abound , the love of many shall wax cold. 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth , let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be . 22 And except those days should be shortened , there should no flesh be saved : but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened . 23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo , here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold , I have told you before . 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold , he is in the desert; go not forth : behold , he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 19 out of 23 verses from the question to verse 26 deal with deception of False Christs. Can there be any doubt that the focus of the Tribulation will be deception by Satan? Good thing all Christians are going to get raptured away rending most of this lesson completely meaningless to us all.
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Notice the first warning is about MAN deceiving us. Wikipedia lists 71 people who claimed to be Messiah since Christ.
List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of these 71, 47 were from 1800 on with most of them since 1900. This goes along with what I have been saying about the 1800s seeming to be the start of real active Satanic or false teaching activity.
Notice the first warning is about MAN deceiving us. Wikipedia lists 71 people who claimed to be Messiah since Christ.
List of messiah claimants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Of these 71, 47 were from 1800 on with most of them since 1900. This goes along with what I have been saying about the 1800s seeming to be the start of real active Satanic or false teaching activity.