Room for Debating
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S
Debates lead to strife, arguments, quarreling. Our bible says not to do those things. If you do not want to accept Christianity, that is fine. We Christians obligations to unbelievers is only to preach the gospel and its good news. It is not up to us to judge you, or condemn you. We leave that to Jesus when he returns and God.
Strife: angry or bitter disagreement over fundamental issues; conflict.
Romans 1:19: They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
Strife: angry or bitter disagreement over fundamental issues; conflict.
Romans 1:19: They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
Let me guess that quote you got is from the bible and it associates with the Muslims.
And how can Debate lead all these problems. If it were a CLEAN debate, meaning no swearing and mocking of this/that
It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: therefore serve Him; this is the Straight Way. [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 19:35-36]
And how can Debate lead all these problems. If it were a CLEAN debate, meaning no swearing and mocking of this/that
It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. Verily Allah is my Lord and your Lord: therefore serve Him; this is the Straight Way. [The Holy Qur'an, Surah 19:35-36]
S
No the verse implied to Christians who have left the faith, or have gone into sinning. Turned back away from Christanity.
Romans 1:18:For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Who are the people who hold the truth in unrigtheousness? Christians who do not obey the word of God, the truth is Jesus.
Romans 1:18:For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
Who are the people who hold the truth in unrigtheousness? Christians who do not obey the word of God, the truth is Jesus.
J
i would defn have to say a debating room would not profit Christian growth... if ppl what to share their hearts and walk away they should be able to do that but for the most part when this happens it leads to strife and even loss of friends... in order to have a room like this it would have to be moderated full time and i am quite sure the mods here are very busy themselves
Let me begin by saying that I agree that there should be a debate room, ProveMeWrong! I think a debate room would be an excellent way for Christians to both engage with non-believers and getting a different perspective from other beliefs! It would also be a great way to hear the arguments from the other side directly instead of creating strawmen and faulty caricatures of an opposing view. I motion that we do have a debate room!
I'll now turn my attention to two comments Samster's made about debating.
1) Debates lead to strife, arguments, and quarreling
Here, I think we have a little common ground, Samster! I tend to agree with you, that debate can lead to strife, arguments, and quarrelings; but I don't think they always do. I'm sure most of us here have had our share of debates which have turned into exactly what you described. I think a key distinction must be made here; strife and arguments are a result of the participants, not because of debate itself.
It is such a shame to watch debate turn into an argument rather than a civil exchange of ideas between two participants. Thus, I can understand your apprehention towards such endevors. However, I have personally participated in a few debates in which there wasn't the slightest hint of strife or arguing. Let me give you a quick example. I was debating God's existence with a young man and out of no where, he brought up the homosexual topic. We carefully navigated through such a topic which is typically associated with your description of debate, with ease, kindness, and grace. At the end, he said, "you're not like other Christians who I've talked to about these issues. You're tolerant of me and my life style". I say this not to boast or to be prideful, but rather show that debating isn't always full of tention, strife, quarreling, or arguing.
I've also witnessed similar results occur with other debaters. For example, over the span of a twenty five plus year career, William Lane Craig has participated in a plethora of debates in which both participants weren't angry, no sign of strife, or arguing.Therefore, I believe there is a balance between arguing and arguments (a series of statements which lead to a conclusion called premises), between fruitful and fruitless debates, and between a good debate and a bad one.
I'll now shift my attention to the uncommon ground you and I share.
Surprisingly, you said, "Our bible says not to do those things" to which I need clarification. Where do you read of such commands? When you cite them, I'll deal with them.
In the mean time, I'd like to present a Biblical case for using debate.
All throughout Acts, Luke records Paul on mutiple occassions debating with various people from philosophers to Jews. Let me just cite two examples.
1) Acts 17:17-34:
Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there. Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?”... And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak?... Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said...[1]"
I want to stop here to point out that Paul is now engaged in a debate. Now debate is defined as, a contention by words or arguments as: a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides [2]." That is to say, an idea that is discussed between two sides in opposition of each other. 2) Acts 15:1-2:
Some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved!". But after Paul and Barnabas had engaged them in serious argument and debate, they arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this controversy."--Holman Christian Standard Bible
Both the King James version[3] and New King James version[4] say the same thing but word it differently while maintaining the same meaning in the text. In the King James version, disputation is used instead of debate while the New King James version it uses dispute. The word dispute means, to engage in argument : debate; especially: to argue irritably or with irritating persistence [5]."
Based on these two examples and their explanations, it should be obvious by now that Paul regularly engaged in debate.
I would like to point out that the true irony here would be if you respond in opposition to anything I've said in this post. For doing so would condemn you for the very thing that you said the Bible commands us not to do; i.e. debate. Thus, you would effectively undermine your own position which in philosophy would be called a self-refutation.
I thank you for reading this lengthly post, Samster! I look forward to your response.
God bless,
-Brandon
[1] Acts 17:17-34 NKJV - Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue - Bible Gateway
[2] Debate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
[3] Acts 15:1-2 KJV - And certain men which came down from - Bible Gateway
[4] Acts 15:1-2 NKJV - Conflict over Circumcision - And - Bible Gateway
[5] Dispute - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
I'll now turn my attention to two comments Samster's made about debating.
1) Debates lead to strife, arguments, and quarreling
Here, I think we have a little common ground, Samster! I tend to agree with you, that debate can lead to strife, arguments, and quarrelings; but I don't think they always do. I'm sure most of us here have had our share of debates which have turned into exactly what you described. I think a key distinction must be made here; strife and arguments are a result of the participants, not because of debate itself.
It is such a shame to watch debate turn into an argument rather than a civil exchange of ideas between two participants. Thus, I can understand your apprehention towards such endevors. However, I have personally participated in a few debates in which there wasn't the slightest hint of strife or arguing. Let me give you a quick example. I was debating God's existence with a young man and out of no where, he brought up the homosexual topic. We carefully navigated through such a topic which is typically associated with your description of debate, with ease, kindness, and grace. At the end, he said, "you're not like other Christians who I've talked to about these issues. You're tolerant of me and my life style". I say this not to boast or to be prideful, but rather show that debating isn't always full of tention, strife, quarreling, or arguing.
I've also witnessed similar results occur with other debaters. For example, over the span of a twenty five plus year career, William Lane Craig has participated in a plethora of debates in which both participants weren't angry, no sign of strife, or arguing.Therefore, I believe there is a balance between arguing and arguments (a series of statements which lead to a conclusion called premises), between fruitful and fruitless debates, and between a good debate and a bad one.
I'll now shift my attention to the uncommon ground you and I share.
Surprisingly, you said, "Our bible says not to do those things" to which I need clarification. Where do you read of such commands? When you cite them, I'll deal with them.
In the mean time, I'd like to present a Biblical case for using debate.
All throughout Acts, Luke records Paul on mutiple occassions debating with various people from philosophers to Jews. Let me just cite two examples.
1) Acts 17:17-34:
Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue with the Jews and with the Gentile worshipers, and in the marketplace daily with those who happened to be there. Then certain Epicurean and Stoic philosophers encountered him. And some said, “What does this babbler want to say?”... And they took him and brought him to the Areopagus, saying, “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak?... Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said...[1]"
I want to stop here to point out that Paul is now engaged in a debate. Now debate is defined as, a contention by words or arguments as: a regulated discussion of a proposition between two matched sides [2]." That is to say, an idea that is discussed between two sides in opposition of each other. 2) Acts 15:1-2:
Some men came down from Judea and began to teach the brothers: "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom prescribed by Moses, you cannot be saved!". But after Paul and Barnabas had engaged them in serious argument and debate, they arranged for Paul and Barnabas and some others of them to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this controversy."--Holman Christian Standard Bible
Both the King James version[3] and New King James version[4] say the same thing but word it differently while maintaining the same meaning in the text. In the King James version, disputation is used instead of debate while the New King James version it uses dispute. The word dispute means, to engage in argument : debate; especially: to argue irritably or with irritating persistence [5]."
Based on these two examples and their explanations, it should be obvious by now that Paul regularly engaged in debate.
I would like to point out that the true irony here would be if you respond in opposition to anything I've said in this post. For doing so would condemn you for the very thing that you said the Bible commands us not to do; i.e. debate. Thus, you would effectively undermine your own position which in philosophy would be called a self-refutation.
I thank you for reading this lengthly post, Samster! I look forward to your response.
God bless,
-Brandon
[1] Acts 17:17-34 NKJV - Therefore he reasoned in the synagogue - Bible Gateway
[2] Debate - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
[3] Acts 15:1-2 KJV - And certain men which came down from - Bible Gateway
[4] Acts 15:1-2 NKJV - Conflict over Circumcision - And - Bible Gateway
[5] Dispute - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
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S
REPROVING YOU AND NOT DEBATING:
I'll now shift my attention to the uncommon ground you and I share.
Surprisingly, you said, "Our bible says not to do those things" to which I need clarification. Where do you read of such commands? When you cite them, I'll deal with them.
Debates and arguments do lead to strife, and quarreling. The bible makes it clear that doing such things is wrong:
Romans 1:19: They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder,strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
Galatians 5:19-21: Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
The definition of dissensions: disagreement that leads to discord.
The definition of discord: disagreement between people.
verb: (of people) disagree.
The man is a Muslim man, he wishes to prove you wrong and prove his religion right. He has already decided us Christians are wrong and is so confident in his faith that he is willing to debate with us. He wishes to prove to himself that his religion is truly from God by destroying us in a Debate.
You wish to argue with him, that is a debate. Arguing is debating because each side has a different opinion, and they wish to argue their matter. To present what they have, and likewise you do the same. Then each person argues their opinion, and points out the flaws in each others argument.
Quarreling Definition: have an angry argument ordisagreement.
As for the verse Acts 17:17-34, it says he reasoned with them, not argued. Now I did read your definition of what you pointed out and I agree with you. But you need to pay more attention to the verse when it says the people who they came to visit said to the Christians: “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak? So obviously they just wanted to hear the doctrine, and hear the reasons for the doctrine. And not to quarrel or have a debate. There is a difference between teaching, reproving someone, and debating/quarreling. A debate is an argument. I know in my heart debating is wrong, and only stirs people up to create more conflict. Don't you understand? What do you think an argument is?
As for the next biblical verse Acts 15:2, here is a better translation: "And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue."
What they did was wrong, Paul and Barnabas, however it is necessary at times. And yes, Paul and Barnabas have sinned in their lives.
Look what you want to do is wrong, our job as Christians is to do good, and grow. We are also to preach the good news, and not debate. Debates create no results, only cause conflict because someone has already decided what they would believe in before hand. They aren't open minded. Finally, just because you managed to throw out historical verses, vereses that don't teach anything does not help your point. Abraham married his half sister, is it okay for us to marry our half sisters? No, cause if you read the bible you would understand it is a sin to do so. Abraham's sons had 2 wives, is it okay for us to commit polygemony. No because it is a sin if you read the bible. You need more knowledge, go read the old testament and your realize Jesus's teaching were based on the Old Testament and he quoted a lot of them in his teachings. I already know debating is wrong, and debates don't work. Letti is right, listen to your Christian brothers and sisters and don't harden your heart. I have observed this as well debates are no good. Listen to us, and ask God. I don't appreciate you trying to condemn me either, you have no right to condemn me. No I am not debating but rather reproving you. Because I am not going to post any longer in this matter. A debate is ongoing, I am pointing out your wrong you can choose to accept it or not. I advise you to read more of the Bible and find the connection between the Torah and the gospel.
Romans 1:19: They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder,strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
You need to read the word of God more, and ASK GOD FOR UNDERSTANDING OF HIS WORD. Just because some people engaged in debaters does not mean it's ok, even if their in the bible. In general Christiasn should avoid debates, and even Joking because it can lead to crude joking which is a sin. Can you not understand from the verse that Paul says all those things in that verse are wrong? Can you not see it's look downed upon? Does God debate, did Jesus debate? NO. All you managed to point out was people debating in the bible, the bible is also used as a historical record. All those bible verses are doing are recalling the past, and not teaching. Can you not distihguish them? Abraham married his half sister, is it okay to marry a half sister? No, it's a sin if you actually read the bible and understood it. One of Abraham's sons had 2 wifes, which is polygemony. Is it okay to commit plygemony? No it is not, because if you read the bible you would see it is a sin. Stop trying to curve thing, and ignore obvious things in the bible.
I'll now shift my attention to the uncommon ground you and I share.
Surprisingly, you said, "Our bible says not to do those things" to which I need clarification. Where do you read of such commands? When you cite them, I'll deal with them.
Debates and arguments do lead to strife, and quarreling. The bible makes it clear that doing such things is wrong:
Romans 1:19: They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder,strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
Galatians 5:19-21: Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
The definition of dissensions: disagreement that leads to discord.
The definition of discord: disagreement between people.
verb: (of people) disagree.
The man is a Muslim man, he wishes to prove you wrong and prove his religion right. He has already decided us Christians are wrong and is so confident in his faith that he is willing to debate with us. He wishes to prove to himself that his religion is truly from God by destroying us in a Debate.
You wish to argue with him, that is a debate. Arguing is debating because each side has a different opinion, and they wish to argue their matter. To present what they have, and likewise you do the same. Then each person argues their opinion, and points out the flaws in each others argument.
Quarreling Definition: have an angry argument ordisagreement.
As for the verse Acts 17:17-34, it says he reasoned with them, not argued. Now I did read your definition of what you pointed out and I agree with you. But you need to pay more attention to the verse when it says the people who they came to visit said to the Christians: “May we know what this new doctrine is of which you speak? So obviously they just wanted to hear the doctrine, and hear the reasons for the doctrine. And not to quarrel or have a debate. There is a difference between teaching, reproving someone, and debating/quarreling. A debate is an argument. I know in my heart debating is wrong, and only stirs people up to create more conflict. Don't you understand? What do you think an argument is?
As for the next biblical verse Acts 15:2, here is a better translation: "And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue."
What they did was wrong, Paul and Barnabas, however it is necessary at times. And yes, Paul and Barnabas have sinned in their lives.
Look what you want to do is wrong, our job as Christians is to do good, and grow. We are also to preach the good news, and not debate. Debates create no results, only cause conflict because someone has already decided what they would believe in before hand. They aren't open minded. Finally, just because you managed to throw out historical verses, vereses that don't teach anything does not help your point. Abraham married his half sister, is it okay for us to marry our half sisters? No, cause if you read the bible you would understand it is a sin to do so. Abraham's sons had 2 wives, is it okay for us to commit polygemony. No because it is a sin if you read the bible. You need more knowledge, go read the old testament and your realize Jesus's teaching were based on the Old Testament and he quoted a lot of them in his teachings. I already know debating is wrong, and debates don't work. Letti is right, listen to your Christian brothers and sisters and don't harden your heart. I have observed this as well debates are no good. Listen to us, and ask God. I don't appreciate you trying to condemn me either, you have no right to condemn me. No I am not debating but rather reproving you. Because I am not going to post any longer in this matter. A debate is ongoing, I am pointing out your wrong you can choose to accept it or not. I advise you to read more of the Bible and find the connection between the Torah and the gospel.
Romans 1:19: They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder,strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
You need to read the word of God more, and ASK GOD FOR UNDERSTANDING OF HIS WORD. Just because some people engaged in debaters does not mean it's ok, even if their in the bible. In general Christiasn should avoid debates, and even Joking because it can lead to crude joking which is a sin. Can you not understand from the verse that Paul says all those things in that verse are wrong? Can you not see it's look downed upon? Does God debate, did Jesus debate? NO. All you managed to point out was people debating in the bible, the bible is also used as a historical record. All those bible verses are doing are recalling the past, and not teaching. Can you not distihguish them? Abraham married his half sister, is it okay to marry a half sister? No, it's a sin if you actually read the bible and understood it. One of Abraham's sons had 2 wifes, which is polygemony. Is it okay to commit plygemony? No it is not, because if you read the bible you would see it is a sin. Stop trying to curve thing, and ignore obvious things in the bible.
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U
This isn't a new idea. But this is also NOT a debate site. Nor do they want to encourage it to be. There are plenty of debate sites out there if that's all you're interested in.
Christians (or anyone else, for that matter) don't come to learn about other religious beliefs, anyways. So how is creating a place for people to teach and preach other beliefs a benefit to a Christian site?
Christians (or anyone else, for that matter) don't come to learn about other religious beliefs, anyways. So how is creating a place for people to teach and preach other beliefs a benefit to a Christian site?
