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[zone]

You completely dismiss the fact that God promised the children of Israel that He would "drive out" the pagans...which He did.

God promised that Abraham's seed will possess the land reaching to the Euphrates:

Genesis 15:18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Genesis 15:19 The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Genesis 15:20 And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Genesis 15:21 And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.

Joshua 1:4 From the wilderness and this Lebanon even unto the great river, the river Euphrates, all the land of the Hittites, and unto the great sea toward the going down of the sun, shall be your coast.

The Abrahamic Covenant includes much more land that the modern state of Israel possesses at the present time:

Genesis 13:14 And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward:
Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 13:16 And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered.
Genesis 13:17 Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.
Genesis 13:18 Then Abram removed his tent, and came and dwelt in the plain of Mamre, which is in Hebron, and built there an altar unto the LORD.

You are totally missing the fact that Israel's future existence, restoration and kingdom is based on God's promise to Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3,7; 13:14-18; 15:18-21).and David (2 Samuel 7:12-17). This is why the kingdom is certain in spite of Israel's rebellion. The covenants are unconditional and eternal.

like this?:

and God is driving out the pagans and having so-called christians murder others [including other christians] to accomplish this?

just no clue all 3 promises to Abraham were fulfilled.

Jeremiah 31:31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31:32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jeremiah 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jeremiah 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jeremiah 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Jeremiah 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

God will literally fulfill the Abrahamic covenant in the future because God is a "covenant keeping" God.

well, i suppose i have now seen the TWO NEW COVENANT dogma.

Jeremiah 31 is fulfilled.
but - Rev 20 must be coming to pass.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Romans 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

For all those who hate dispensational theology and teach it is false...here is something for you to read:

False Charges Against Dispensationalism

You will probably reject it, but it just might give you "food for thought".

the creation ministry answers in genesis has an article called 'arguments creationists should not use'...where they expose false or misleading arguments commonly used by creationists and recommend that creationists stop using them...

i think there needs to be a similar list of 'arguments anti dispensationalists should not use'

 

[BradC]

For all those who hate dispensational theology and teach it is false...here is something for you to read:

False Charges Against Dispensationalism

You will probably reject it, but it just might give you "food for thought".

Now you've done it, you let the cat out of the bag and you put it on the table.

 

[zone]

For all those who hate dispensational theology and teach it is false...here is something for you to read:

False Charges Against Dispensationalism

You will probably reject it, but it just might give you "food for thought".

Dispensationalists never speak of the church being "Plan B" even though we are accused of doing so. .....

The church, instead of being "Plan B," might be referred to as a "mystery plan." It was something that was not made known to man for ages and for generations. It was something locked up in the loving heart and mind of God. See Ephesians 3:3-10; Colossians 1:26-27; etc. Abraham, Joseph, Moses, Joshua, David, Isaiah, Daniel, John the Baptist---these men knew nothing of God's plan and purposes which would involve "one new man" (Eph. 2:15), even the body of Christ.

To deny God's parenthesis (that period of time between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel 9) is to plunge the Bible interpreter into a faulty and erroneous system of preterism (the teaching that says that all or most prophecies found their fulfillment in or around 70 A.D.). Bondage to this system makes it impossible to understand Bible prophecies in a normal and natural way. When the plain sense makes good sense they must seek some other sense lest they end up agreeing with the dispensationalists!

False Charges Against Dispensationalism < click


no, we don't use the term Plan B....we call it a 'parenthesis'.

and we sever the 70th week in which Jesus Christ appeared for the salvation of Israel and whomsoever will - and have it hanging off in the future somewhere, as yet unfulfilled.
we don't appear to realize this means we are not saved either.

but we are so desperate, we know the arguments against us, and so we modify and develop an apologetics system which only makes the dialectic more obvious.

 

[zone]

For all those who hate dispensational theology and teach it is false...here is something for you to read:

False Charges Against Dispensationalism

You will probably reject it, but it just might give you "food for thought".

6) Dispensationalism Teaches a "Secret Rapture."

I attended a dispensational seminary (1972-1975) and have traveled in dispensational circles for the last 40 years. I have never known of any dispensational Bible teacher who spoke of "a secret rapture." This is a term that non-dispensationalists always use disparagingly. They consistently accuse dispensationalists of teaching "a secret rapture."

In what sense is the rapture a secret? In 1 Corinthians 15:51 the truth pertaining to the Rapture is called a "mystery." This means that it was a truth that was unrevealed to men in previous ages. Moses, David, Isaiah and John the Baptist knew nothing of the rapture of the Church. It was a secret or mystery that had not yet been revealed. A New Testament "mystery" is something that was once hidden but now revealed. God has made it known to His saints and it is a secret no more. Paul said, "I shew you a mystery." If he showed it to us, then it is no longer hidden. It is clearly revealed to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see. It is a truth that has been clearly revealed. It is a secret no more!

Bible believers should be making known the glorious truth that "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" living believers will be changed and those who have died will be raised (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:13-18). May we be looking expectantly for this blessed and comforting and purifying hope (Tit. 2:13)! It's no secret, but it's a wonderful life-changing truth that our living Lord expects us to believe.

False Charges Against Dispensationalism

our apologetics system says: what "secret"?

we say 'pretribulation rapture is true', but we don't call it a 'secret'.

we are never able to provide any biblical evidence of any kind for millions (?) of people vanishing in a moment - while jews and others are left behind.

the best we can do to defend our doctrine is to accuse detractors of claiming we say the (non-existent) pretribulation rapture is 'a secret'.

.....

pathethic really.
oh well.

 

[unclefester]

There is no debate on the gospel and who it saves through the promise SEED, the problem you and others have is the favor of God upon the Jews of Israel that has been with them since the promise was given to Abraham through Isaac. You think it was annulled by the coming of Christ.

A beyond ridiculous observation. It wasn't "annulled" Brad. It was FULFILLED in the God/Person of Jesus Christ ! The mystery of the gospel is that "God's favor" now rests upon all who believe in the Son ... both jew and gentile alike. Would you kindly address what "favor" God bestowed upon those jews who have died in unbelief these past two-thousand years ?

 

[zone]

The children of Israel will be completely restored to their land (and it is their land by promise) and they will rebuild the temple and Jesus Christ will reign on the throne of David for 1,000 years

where is Jesus shown to be sitting in another temple?

where is the throne of david right now? in a cave somewhere or will you build one?

at the end of the 1,000 years, what happens to israel's eternal earthly kingdom? not eternal?

and you are where? hovering over earthly jerusalem in new jerusalem?

do the jews ever enter the [completed prior to the rapture] church, brad?

question for anyone: is this what dispensationalism fundamentally teaches?

The children of Israel will be completely restored to their land (and it is their land by promise) and they will rebuild the temple and Jesus Christ will reign on the throne of David for 1,000 years

 

[unclefester]

Did I miss the addendum ?

John 18:36

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

​_________________________________________________________________________________

Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world .... (except for the one-thousand years after My return in the millennial age) If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place."

 

[Elin]

That doesn't change the fact that the nation, which we call
Israel today, existed as Canaan before Ishmael and Isaac were born....and that same nation that was called Canaan, was named after Jacob, who was renamed Israel by God (Genesis 32:28).

Canaan was a land of pagans. . .not God's people, whom Joshua had to drive out
in order to possess the land.

What am I missing here?

You are totally missing the fact that Israel's future existence,

Future existence at the time of Ishmael and Isaac is not the same as
existence at the time of Ishamel and Isaac.

Words do have meaning, for a reason--to communicate accurately.

 

[Elin]

Does your church support Jewish missions/evangelism?

We're back to that again. . .

My church doesn't favor one group of unbelievers over another, since God is impartial,
and causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Mt 5:45; Mk 12:14; Ac 10:34-35; Ro 2:11; Gal 2:6 Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; Jas 2:1; 1Pe 1:17).

 

[Elin]

That's very interesting especially when it comes to the issue of repentance.

The clue. . .

 

[Elin]

False Charges Against Dispensationalism

True charges against dispenstionalism:

Nowhere does the Bible anywhere teach seven dispensations.
Nowhere do Paul, Peter, James, John, Matthew, Mark, Luke or Jude even mention such a doctrine.
Dispensationalism supposes that somehow they were ignorant of it, or they forgot to tell us about it.

The Bible knows only two dispensations (Heb 10:9) since Adam (Heb 11:4):
The Old and the New (Heb 8:7, 13), both of grace (Ge 15:6; Gal 3:17-18; Heb 11),
the former a dispensation of types and shadows,
and the latter a dispensation of the realities themselves (Heb 10:1; Col 2:17).

Dispensationalism falsely teaches:

• Two Second Comings--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation; and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation
• Two First Resurrections--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation (Rev 20:4-6); and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation
• Two Last Trumpets--the one the Bible locates after the tribulation (Mt 24:31; 1Co 15:52; 1Th 4:16; Rev 10:7, 11:15); and the one dispensationalism locates before the tribulation
• Two Bodies of Christ--the redeemed in Christ which the Bible locates on earth during the tribulation; and the bride of the Lamb which dispensationalists locate in heaven during the tribulation, and which does not include the body of Christ on earth
• Two Temporal Messianic Kingdoms --the one the Bible inaugurates at Christ's first coming (Da 2:44; Lk 11:20; Jn 18:36; Ro 14:17); and the one dispensationalism inaugurates at Christ's second second coming; i.e., his third coming
• Two Final World Battles--the Armegeddon which the Bible locates at the end of the tribulation and temporal Messianic kingdom (Rev 16:16, 19:19, 20:7-9); and the one dispensationalism locates at the end of its second temporal Messianic kingdom
• Two Final Judgments--the judgment of all mankind which the Bible locates at the end of time (D 12:2; Rev 20:11-15; Mt 25:31-33, 16:27; Jn 5:28-29, 6:39, 40, 44, 54, 11:24; Ac 17:31; 2Pe 3:7, 11-13; 2Ti 4:1 (KJV); Ro 2:16, 14:10; 1Co 1:8, 3:11-15, 4:5, 5:5, 15:22-24; 2Co 5:10; Php 1:6, 10, 2:16; 1Jn 4:17); and the one dispensationalism locates at the beginning of the tribulation.

Because dispensationalism teaches an extra coming of Christ (before the tribulation) which the Bible
does not teach, it must duplicate events and things which are one and the same, so as not to contradict
the Bible's location of these events with the coming of Christ after the tribulation.

The doctrine of seven dispensaations is a doctrine of man (of his own invention that he is fond of
and wedded to, thinking it is the doctrine of God because it is so agreeable to his own fancy),
nowhere found in the in the word of God.

And if the Bible doesn't teach it, then we don't know it (1Co 4:6).

 

[zone]

The clue. . .

ya think?
it's really a brilliant system. in an astonishing way.

i wonder who would want men to believe Jesus Christ did not come when He was prophesied to; accomplish what He came for; denying He was and is Messiah.

2 Corinthians 11:14
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

[video=youtube;Auf-Su-xZVU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auf-Su-xZVU[/video]

 

[Linda70]

We're back to that again. . .

Back to what again? Sharing Christ with the Jewish people? Hmmm...Scripture teaches that we are to share Christ to all the lost, and it does say "to the Jew first" (Romans 1:16), but not neglecting lost Gentiles.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

My church doesn't favor one group of unbelievers over another, since God is impartial,
and causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous (Mt 5:45; Mk 12:14; Ac 10:34-35; Ro 2:11; Gal 2:6 Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; Jas 2:1; 1Pe 1:17).

Evangelism of a particular group of people is not showing partiality or favoring on group of unbelievers over another. Do you not believe that lost Jewish people need to hear the Gospel of salvation and trust Christ just like lost Gentiles do? Or do you believe like John Hagee, that Jews can be saved without believing and trusting Christ? (Dual Covenant Theology)

 

[Elin]

Does your church support Jewish missions/evangelism?

We're back to that again. . .

Back to what again?

Failing to ask if my church supports Tanzenian missions/evangelism?

 

[zone]

Back to what again? Sharing Christ with the Jewish people? Hmmm...Scripture teaches that we are to share Christ to all the lost, and it does say "to the Jew first" (Romans 1:16), but not neglecting lost Gentiles.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Evangelism of a particular group of people is not showing partiality or favoring on group of unbelievers over another. Do you not believe that lost Jewish people need to hear the Gospel of salvation and trust Christ just like lost Gentiles do? Or do you believe like John Hagee, that Jews can be saved without believing and trusting Christ? (Dual Covenant Theology)

Linda;
in your particular variation of this doctrine....what reason do you believe God has for removing His [complete?] 'church' (which you have apparently with some jews in it) - at which time He closes His mystery "parenthesis"....before He turns His attention back to Israel the nation?

does Israel left behind ever end up being part of, or referred to as the 'church (ekklesia) at all? if so....when?

what is happening on earth while you in the raptured church are in heaven? are you there for 7 years?
how long are you there before you come back to earth? do you come back at all?

what happens after you come back?

does Jesus stay in heaven with you during your time away?
or is He is on earth with Israel?

how does Israel [and whoever else] who gets left behind get saved while you are raptured away?
do the jews have an epiphany....find New Testaments? do they baptize one another...make disciples and carry on the great commission? - where can i find all this activity in the Bible?

 

[Linda70]

Failing to ask if my church supports Tanzenian missions/evangelism?

Your arrogance and sarcasm are blatantly obvious. You are unable to respond to a simple question without being sarcastic, arrogant and just plain rude.

 

[Elin]

Failing to ask if my church supports Tanzenian missions/evangelism?

Your arrogance and sarcasm are blatantly obvious. You are unable to respond to a simple question without being sarcastic, arrogant and just plain rude.

Your unbiblical assumptive favoritism never even occurred to you, did it?

Sorry you found its exposure so unpleasant.

 

[BradC]

ya think?
it's really a brilliant system. in an astonishing way.

i wonder who would want men to believe Jesus Christ did not come when He was prophesied to; accomplish what He came for; denying He was and is Messiah.

2 Corinthians 11:14
13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

[video=youtube;Auf-Su-xZVU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Auf-Su-xZVU[/video]

Do you have a problem with that because it came from the mouth of a preacher? Some of you are just pacifists and you never got beyond your 'hippie dippie' culture. You probably still like the Beatles and all those other peaceniks. If Iran had the cooperation of the other Arab nations and a turning of the head from the UN, I don't think there would be much consideration on the Arabs part as to what to do about Israel. Here in the US we better not be pacifists when it comes to being Israel's allie when the enemy raises their ugly head and we better not fold under pressure from China and Russia and any of the other nations that would oppose us, even it is is Britian or France. Israel would not hesitate to support us if we needed their help, you can count on it.

 

[Married_Richenbrachen]

Israel would not hesitate to support us if we needed their help, you can count on it.

Like they did in July 1954, you mean? Or June 1967? Or September 2001? And these are just the times they got caught out. A lot of times, the criminals probably got away with it. With friends like these, who needs enemies?