Support your Local Jew!

Katy-follower · Oct 11, 2013

This is why we lean not on our own understanding. There is only one interpretation, lets not twist scriptures to fit with what we desire...

Daniel 9:26: "And after the sixty-two weeks
Messiah (Jesus) shall be cut off, but not for Himself;
And the people (Romans) of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary...."

Yes, Messiah was cut off (fulfilled)
The Romans then destroyed the temple (fulfilled)
The future prince who is to come (not yet fulfilled) - it says the people who destroyed the temple (Romans) are of the prince to come, so we know the future prince ('man of sin') is someone from Rome (aka revived Roman empire, as confirmed in various scriptures).

Continuing......

Daniel 9:27: "Then he (roman prince) shall confirm a covenant with many for one week (7 yrs);
But in the middle of the week (3.5 yrs)
he shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,
Even until the consummation, which is determined,
Is poured out on the desolate.”

Verse 27 is not Jesus, it is the future 'man of sin'.

In addition to this, throughout the entire bible God is always referred to with a capital - Him, He, His. Everyone else, especially the enemy, is always a lower case. Verse 26 shows "Himself" and verse 27 shows "he".

Same case in the scripture that speaks of the restrainer. The identity is a "He"

SarahM777 · Oct 11, 2013

Married_Richenbrachen said:

Remember only the high priest could go into the Holy of Holies once a year. With the veil torn in two someone could by accident look into the Holy of Holies. Remember what happened to the man that just touched the ark of the covenant? Remember they also tied a rope to the high priest in case he died before the Holy of Holies.

From what Josephus writes the veil was huge,heavy and thick. It took three hundred priests to handle the veil. It took 82 women a year to make one. (They did have to replace them from time to time) They had two in process at all times. If they had just recently replaced the one hanging in the temple it would be six months or more before they would be able to sacrifice again.

SarahM777 · Oct 11, 2013

Katy-follower said:

Do we then out the New Testament where the writers keep saying Jesus is the end of sacrifices? Can't understand why the MESSIAH would not be the end of the sacrifices when that is exactly why He came. Didn't Jesus come to be the final perfect sacrifice or not? Why would God look at something or someone else to end the the sacrifices as oppose to His only begotten Son who would be His perfect and acceptable sacrifice? Isn't that what Hebrews tells us? Or is that passed off? Did the writer of Hebrews get that wrong? How about the rest of the New Testament writers?

zone · Oct 11, 2013

Daniel 9
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

...

Matthew 24:15
"So when you see standing in the holy place 'the abomination that causes desolation,' spoken of through the prophet Daniel--let the reader understand--

Mark 13:14
"When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Luke 21:20
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near.

Geneva Bible Notes
"Revelation 12:14 {18} And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her {c} place, where she is nourished for a {19} time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

(18) That is, being strengthened with divine power: and taught by oracle, she fled swiftly from the assault of the devil, and from the common destruction of Jerusalem and went into a solitary city beyond Jordan called Pella as Eusebius tells in the first chapter of the third book of his ecclesiastical history: where God had commanded her by revelation.

(c) Into the place God had prepared for her.

(19) That is, for three and a half years: so the same speech is taken in see Geneva (q) "Da 7:25". This space of time is reckoned in manner from that last and most grievous rebellion of the Jews, to the destruction of the city and temple,for their defection or falling away, began in the twelfth year of Nero, before the beginning of which many signs and predictions were shown from heaven, as Josephus wrote, lib.7, chap.12, and Hegesippus lib.5, chap.44, among which this is very memorable. In the feast of Pentecost not only a great sound and noise was heard in the Temple, but also a voice was heard by many out of the Sanctuary which cried out to all, Let us depart from here. Now three and a half years after this defection by the Jews began, and those wonders happened, the city was taken by force, the temple overthrown, and the place forsaken by God: and the length of time John noted in this place. "

...

"...it is remarked by several interpreters, and which Josephus takes notice of with surprise, that Cestius Gallus having advanced with his army to Jerusalem, and besieged it, on a sudden without any cause, raised the siege, and withdrew his army, when the city might have been easily taken; by which means a signal was made, and an opportunity given to the Christians, to make their escape: which they accordingly did, and went over to Jordan, as Eusebius says, to a place called Pella; so that when Titus came a few months after, there was not a Christian in the city . . " - Gill

zone · Oct 11, 2013

zone said:

do you believe something like this?:

"e. Jesus came to earth bringing with him an "offer" of the kingdom to the Jews, who rejected him. God then turned to dealing with the Gentiles -- thus, the church age is a parenthesis of sorts. The rapture is the next event to occur in Biblical prophecy. The signs of the end of the age (i.e., the birth of the nation of Israel, the revival of the Roman empire predicted in Daniel as seen through the emergence of the EEC [common market], the impending Russian-Arab invasion of Israel, etc.) all point to the immediacy of the secret return of Christ for his church. Antichrist is awaiting his revelation once the believing church is removed."

Eschatology Chart

the revival of the Roman Empire predicted by Daniel

huh? lol.

Elin · Oct 11, 2013

BradC said:

Because the believers from those tribes were the people of God, which now includes believing Gentiles.

The people of God is one fold, one shepherd, one olive tree, one body of Christ, composed of believing Jews and Gentiles.
See Eph 2:15-16.

Have you read the NT?

Elin · Oct 11, 2013

Married_Richenbrachen said:

What "sheep" clothing?

That's goat clothing.

CoooCaw · Oct 11, 2013

come on zone, are you shy?????

WHEN, ACCORDING TO YOUR THEOLOGY, did Daniel's 70th week take place??????

a seven years from the ascension?
b some time after AD50

you keep avoiding the question

zone said:

zone · Oct 11, 2013

CoooCaw said:

i'm not avoiding the question...why don't you spend some time looking at the matter yourself?

the first half of daniel's 70th week happened during the Lord's 3.5 years public ministry - which ended in His being cut off (but not for Himself):

Question: "How long was Jesus' ministry?"

Answer: According to Luke 3:1, John the Baptist began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar’s reign. Tiberius was appointed as co-regent with Augustus in AD 11, and 15 years later would be AD 26. Jesus began His ministry shortly thereafter at approximately the age of thirty (Luke 3:23). This gives us a basis upon which we can approximate what year Jesus began His public ministry: around AD 26. As for the end of His ministry, we know that it culminated with His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.

According to John’s Gospel, Jesus attended at least three annual Feasts of Passover through the course of His ministry: one in John 2:13, another in 6:4, and then the Passover of His crucifixion in 11:55–57. Just based on that information, Jesus’ ministry lasted 2 years, at the very least.

Because of the amount of things that Jesus accomplished and the places He traveled during His ministry, many scholars believe there was another Passover, not mentioned in the Gospels, which fell between the Passovers of John 2 and John 6. This would lengthen Jesus’ ministry to at least 3 years.

We can add more time because of all that took place before the first Passover of Jesus’ ministry in John 2. By the time of that first Passover (in the spring of 27), Jesus had already traveled from the area of the Jordan to Cana to Capernaum to Jerusalem. He had been baptized by John (Matthew 3:13–17), been tempted in the wilderness (Matthew 4:1–2), began His preaching ministry (Matthew 4:17), called His first disciples (John 1:35–51), performed His first miracle (John 2:1–11), and made a trip to Capernaum with His family (John 2:12). All this would have taken several months, at least.

Add to that the 40 days between Jesus’ resurrection and His ascension (Acts 1:3), and we have a total length of Jesus’ earthly ministry. From His baptism to His ascension, the late summer of 26 to the spring of 30, we have approximately 3½ years.

gotquestions. org

the second half of the 70th week clearly followed the first half and was completed 3.5 years later. = 7 YEARS (70th week).

whatever marker you use here for the END of the 70th week (there are several to consider), signifies the END of all 70 weeks (each week = a period of 7 years). the 70 years that were decreed FOR DANIEL'S PEOPLE AND FOR THE CITY JERUSALEM.

.....

then the people (romans) of the Prince (Titus) who was to come (future to Daniel...not you) destroyed it...in 70AD - 70AD NOT being part of the 70 weeks.

CoooCaw · Oct 11, 2013

so Jesus 3 1/2 year ministry is in the first half of the 70th week followed IMMEDIATELY by the second 3 1/2 years!?

So who was it that caused the sacrifice and the oblation to cease????

zone said:

i'm not avoiding the question...why don't you spend some time looking at the matter yourself?

the first half of daniel's 70th week happened during the Lord's 3.5 years public ministry - which ended in His being cut off (but not for Himself):

Question: "How long was Jesus' ministry?"

Answer: According to Luke 3:1, John the Baptist began his ministry in the 15th year of Tiberius Caesar’s reign. Tiberius was appointed as co-regent with Augustus in AD 11, and 15 years later would be AD 26. Jesus began His ministry shortly thereafter at approximately the age of thirty (Luke 3:23). This gives us a basis upon which we can approximate what year Jesus began His public ministry: around AD 26. As for the end of His ministry, we know that it culminated with His crucifixion, resurrection, and ascension.

According to John’s Gospel, Jesus attended at least three annual Feasts of Passover through the course of His ministry: one in John 2:13, another in 6:4, and then the Passover of His crucifixion in 11:55–57. Just based on that information, Jesus’ ministry lasted 2 years, at the very least.

Because of the amount of things that Jesus accomplished and the places He traveled during His ministry, many scholars believe there was another Passover, not mentioned in the Gospels, which fell between the Passovers of John 2 and John 6. This would lengthen Jesus’ ministry to at least 3 years.

We can add more time because of all that took place before the first Passover of Jesus’ ministry in John 2. By the time of that first Passover (in the spring of 27), Jesus had already traveled from the area of the Jordan to Cana to Capernaum to Jerusalem. He had been baptized by John (Matthew 3:13–17), been tempted in the wilderness (Matthew 4:1–2), began His preaching ministry (Matthew 4:17), called His first disciples (John 1:35–51), performed His first miracle (John 2:1–11), and made a trip to Capernaum with His family (John 2:12). All this would have taken several months, at least.

Add to that the 40 days between Jesus’ resurrection and His ascension (Acts 1:3), and we have a total length of Jesus’ earthly ministry. From His baptism to His ascension, the late summer of 26 to the spring of 30, we have approximately 3½ years.

gotquestions. org

the second half of the 70th week clearly followed the first half and was completed 3.5 years later. = 7 YEARS (70th week).

whatever marker you use here for the END of the 70th week (there are several to consider), signifies the END of all 70 weeks (each week = a period of 7 years). the 70 years that were decreed FOR DANIEL'S PEOPLE AND FOR THE CITY JERUSALEM.

.....

then the people (romans) of the Prince (Titus) who was to come (future to Daniel...not you) destroyed it...in 70AD - 70AD NOT being part of the 70 weeks.

LT · Oct 11, 2013

CoooCaw said:

The New Covenant is in Jesus blood, and His death is the final and sufficient sacrifice for sin. I am pretty sure that every Christian can agree that this prophecy was fulfilled in Christ.

Could this prophecy also apply to the Great Tribulation?

Many believe it does, and no Scripture that I have found has removed this as a possibility. I would not be surprised if the Antichrist uses many messianic prophecies during that time. I am sure Satan would love to deceive Christians based on their eschatology views.

Why are you guys still debating prophecy? It seems pretty clear to me that neither of you will be right in the end. If God needed us to have a clear view of how the End would come, then these visions would have been interpreted in the text, like the other visions! What God has left a mystery, will man make it clear?!
The truth that we find in these prophecies is: that God does have a plan for the end, and it is coming soon.

Hizikyah · Oct 11, 2013

zone said:

Im not going to debate this, if you want I can point you in the direction to start your journey to this truth:

10 words were added to Yahchanan (John) that added an additional Passover Feast to Yahshua's ministry, if these 10 words are quthentic, then all 4 messages of the Messiah go completely blank for a year....

This extra Passover was added so the 7th week could be proclaimed fulfilled then, (and im not saying you buy THIS part) the pope can regin as "the vicar of christ" on earth.

I used to also believe this 31/2 yr ministry, but I found out it is not true.

Linda70 · Oct 11, 2013

Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel 9:24-27. God's timetable for restoring Israel and overthrowing the Gentile powers.

The Seventy Weeks. The occasion of the 70 weeks was Daniel's prayer that God would have mercy on Israel. The vision of the 70 weeks is God's answer. In this vision God reveals to Daniel the time schedule and major events which will lead to the establishment of Israel's Messianic kingdom.

The Length of Time of the 70 Weeks. The Hebrew term for weeks here (shebuah) simply means "sevens." The context must determine whether it is a week of days, or of years, etc.

(1) The weeks which have already been fulfilled demonstrate these are weeks of years rather than of days. It was almost 500 years from the rebuilding of the temple and of Jerusalem until the coming of Christ. This fits perfectly the testimony of Daniel 9:25, which places 69 weeks of years (483 years) between the two events. It is only reasonable to believe that the 70th week shall also be a week of years, or a seven year period.

(2) When this Hebrew term is used of weeks of days, the word "days" is added (Daniel 10:2-3).

(3) The concept of weeks of years was familiar to Jewish thinking (Leviticus 25:3-9).

(4) At the time of the vision, Daniel had been thinking in terms of weeks of years (Daniel 9:2 compared with 2 Chronicles 36:21).

The Divisions of the 70 Weeks. The 70 weeks are divided into distinct groups.

(1) During the first 7 weeks (49 years) Jerusalem was rebuilt in troublous times (compare Nehemiah).

(2) The next 62 weeks (434 years) extends from the rebuilding of Jerusalem until the coming of the Messiah.

(3) Between the 69th and 70th week is a period of undetermined time during which the Messiah is cut off (compare Matthew 27), Jerusalem is destroyed by Roman armies (A.D. 70), and there are desolations until the end. The Hebrew word translated "desolation" is also translated "destruction (Hosea 2:12). It refers to the fact that Jerusalem has been destroyed and overrun time and again throughout the interim period between the 69th and 70th weeks. Unforeseen by Daniel is the interlude of the church age, during which time the Messiah is resurrected and ascends back to Heaven to oversee the calling out of a people for His name from among the nations (Luke 19:11-27; Acts 15:14-18).

(4) The 70th week (the final seven years). The prince of the revived Roman Empire will make a covenant with Israel. That the Antichrist arises from the revived Roman Empire is evident by the fact that he is called the prince of the people who destroyed Jerusalem after Messiah's death; this was Rome. In the middle of the seven years the Antichrist will desecrate the Jewish temple (compare Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4). There will be desolations until Christ returns to overthrow the Antichrist (compare Matthew 24:16-21; Revelation 11:2). The abomination that makes desolate marks the middle of the seven years. Compare Matthew 24:15 where Jesus places this event in the Tribulation period. This abomination of desolation probably refers to the occasion when the Antichrist will set himself up as god (2 Thessalonians 2:4).

SOURCE: WAY OF LIFE ENCYCLOPEDIA: DANIEL

Daniel’s 70th week is still future. I’m not too interested in what preterism teaches, because what they teach is not sound biblical doctrine, but doctrines which originated in the 1500s by a Jesuit named Alcasar....straight from the Roman Catholic Church, which is a source that is full of paganism and heretical teachings.

jahsoul · Oct 11, 2013

And this is where I get confused. Honestly, that 70 week explanation sounds like a major stretch. If weeks 1 - 69 is a "week of years, as is week 70, why has one "week" between week 69 and 70 been nearly 4 times longer than all the other weeks combined? I understand that God's time is not our time but why would all the weeks fit except that one week? Also, why wouldn't God show Daniel the "church age" but shows him everything else?

LT · Oct 11, 2013

Hizikyah said:

This is an entirely unsubstantiated claim. There is no evidence for the adding of an extra Passover into John's gospel. In fact there is a higher probability that the feast mentioned in John 5:1 is a 4th Passover. The Gospel of John (Yahchanan) is not in pure chronological order. It is topical.
The comment you made is very destructive; and as you already know, it has no empirical proof(or else you would have been willing to debate/this is a well know hoax claim).

LT · Oct 11, 2013

jahsoul said:

This is a great observation. The problem is that we are dealing with a prophecy that was never interpreted within the text; therefor people can stretch it to fit whatever doctrine they want, and there is almost no way to disprove them.

Hizikyah · Oct 11, 2013

LT said:

here is a introduction to this topic, then seek what the oldest greek scripts say

Jonah Code & 70 Weeks of Daniel Full Disk 1 of 5 by Michael Rood - YouTube

5 part series about 9 hrs long, it will lead you to truth, Sabbath is coming up, great time to leave EVERYTHING else alone and just seek Yahweh. could watch it twice and still have 6hrs of sleep!

Linda70 · Oct 11, 2013

jahsoul said:

It's not a stretch at all. The context determines whether Daniel meant "weeks" or "years".

Linda70 said:

Daniel was writing to Jews.

The period between the 69th and 70th week is the church age. The church age was unknown in the OT...it was a "mystery" (which is something hidden in the OT and revealed in the NT). When the church ends at the rapture (which was also a unknown to Daniel, as was the Church age), the 70th week of Daniel will begin. This will be the 7 year Tribulation period. What would be the purpose in revealing the "church age" to Israel? They were looking for the coming Messiah/Redeemer and the "restored" Messianic kingdom...which is totally distinct from the Church. God revealed to Daniel only what He wanted Daniel to know....and that didn't include the Church age. I'm not sure what you mean by "everything else"?

Get out your Bible and use it as you read this article:

"The Redemption and the Reclamation"

LT · Oct 11, 2013

the Church age was never a mystery. It was prophesied in the OT that, through messiah, all nations would be saved. It may have been hidden from the eyes of the Hebrews, but it is still written into the Torah in many places, and throughout the Psalms and Prophets.
God would not have given Daniel a mathematical prophecy, and leave out nearly all of the of the equation... 1/3 of the human human history! God doesn't make mistakes; the Church was always in His plan. It had already made the 2nd covenant plain in other prophecies. By separating the last week from the other 69, it destroys the integrity of the mathematics, and the prophecy as a whole.

Just kidding....
You might be right about the break in the 70 weeks, but I will not give up on this one point: God did not give Daniel an interpretation for this vision, and there are many possible interpretations, so we should be very cautious about claiming our particular views to be perfect.

LT · Oct 11, 2013

Hizikyah said:

Dude... watching the video... need to ask you one major question...

In your words, explain to me how a person is able to get into heaven. One sentence if possible.
I am willing to take you through the Scriptures to show you exactly how you can know you are going to heaven. It will only take 5 minutes. The guy you are listening to may have some decent information, but he is leading people to hell.

Support your Local Jew!

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

CoooCaw

Guest

Senior Member

CoooCaw

Guest

LT

Guest

Senior Member

Linda70

Guest

jahsoul

Guest

LT

Guest

LT

Guest

Senior Member

Linda70

Guest

LT

Guest

LT

Guest