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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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Originally Posted by Katy-follower

Eschatology is a non salvational matter.


Revelation should not be your source for salvation, or even understanding of requirements for salvation.
You are making an argument about nothing.

If you believe that proper eschatology is an essential for salvation, you have fallen pretty far from the gospel.
i hope you are addressing someone else. because Revelation is NOT my source for salvation.

dispensationalism develops its doctrine of salvation FROM its eschatology.

if you would like proof - from their own material, please ask.
ill post resources.
you decide.

and just from whence come all these arguments and schisms....from the Dispensational camp - which did not exist 150 years ago.
one gospel for the jew and one for the gentile - no matter HOW you wrap it.

multiple Plans of God instead of ONE PLAN.
 
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R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
How is preterism from catholicism? The 1st century church believed that the prophecies were being fulfilled before their eyes: preterism is just agreeing with the Apostles.
preterism was invented by the roman catholic jesuit luis de alcasar during the counter reformation...so it did come from catholicism...preterism was introduced to the protestant church by the arminian ecumenist hugo grotius...

the eschatology held by the early church was closer to what is called 'historicism' nowdays...it is kind of a middle ground between preterism and futurism that allows for some prophecies to have been already fulfilled while other prophecies remain in the future...
 
R

RachelBibleStudent

Guest
If you believe that proper eschatology is an essential for salvation, you have fallen pretty far from the gospel.
i have pointed this out in another thread actually...by insinuating on numerous occasions that those who disagree with her eschatology are not saved...she is in fact espousing a false gospel that adds extra requirements to the biblical gospel of salvation by grace through faith in christ alone...
 
Dec 21, 2012
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Why are you trying to add to the gospel?
A discernment test for you Katy-follower: is it Spirit or spirit? (I was led to Heb 1:13)


All who are born again are of the same Spirit. Eschatology is a non salvational matter.
Well I got nagging feeling a few days ago that it's time to start studying eschatology. I hope that feeling came from the Holy Spirit.

I'm the first to admit it's over my head. I study sin, repentance and gospel generally. I love Revelation chaps. 1-3 & 22 but rest of it I get confused, Daniel as well. Prophecies and Davidic covenant I have no expertise. Dual covenants, dispensationalism, I just follow 2 Tim 4:2 and preach repent and the kingdom of God is at hand.

I don't like labels because I don't know all that comes with a title given by men. God did not want for there to be divisions within the body either. Because of my views on Israel in the last days I've been labeled as a dispensationalist, a heretic, someone who is not part of the true church, someone who is following Antichrist, someone that some say they are not called to fellowship with because I supposedly suppress truth.
No one says that about me because of my views on Israel--perhaps there's something in your writing style?

As an American and a supporter of Israel's right to exist as a democratic state, ...

My views on Israel in the last days does not make me a fake Christian. All born again believers agree that only through Jesus can one be saved.
All born-again believers, that's correct.

We've been studying that in a past few days here on CC and there are serious questions about dispensationalists and "Christian Zionists" as they're called.

Following Judah's Lion: Pastor Hagee says Keep Your Children Unsaved

"One of the “evangelical” leaders of this movement is Pastor John Hagee of San Antonio, Texas. He has a following of millions and he has changed the attitudes and beliefs of many believers. And at one of his pro-Israel rallies he was confronted by some non-believing Jews who were concerned that Christians would draw Jews into these rallies and convert them. They were unaware that Hagee believes that orthodox Jews can be saved without Jesus."

Praus - why not take a look at preterism, it's the predominant view held by many on this site. It's the worst lie to ever enter the church. It came from Catholicism.
Preterism may very well be incorrect, no idea yet, the preterists here on CC have never marketed their opinions to me.

What I can say it that when I read about the church at Ephesus and it seems like a warning for me!
:eek:

Rev 2:4
Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
Revelation is NOT my source for salvation.
Dispensationalism develops its doctrine of salvation FROM its eschatology.
And just from whence come all these arguments and schisms....from the Dispensational camp - which did not exist 150 years ago.
One gospel for the jew and one for the gentile - no matter HOW you wrap it.
Multiple Plans of God instead of ONE PLAN.
Much error by scholars has entered the Church throughout its history by
(mis)interpretation of prophecy in a way that contradicts clear and explcit NT teaching.

We see that same kind of (mis)interpretation of prophecy regarding Israel today in:

1) the error of a future of Israel apart from the Church which contradicts the clear and
explicit teaching of Ro 11:15-24 that the conversion of Israel means grafting them back
into the Church, the body of Christ, with Christians;

2) the error of an eternal title to earthly land which contradicts the clear and explicit
teaching of Heb 11:8-16 that the eternal title was not to earthly land, but to heavenly
land (vv. 10, 13, 16),
that this was the way Abraham understood the eternal title (vv. 13-16), as did Jesus
who said that the patriarchs are living now (in their eternal possession) - (Lk 20:37-38),
and that God was not ashamed to be called their God because he fulfilled his promise to
Abraham of that everlasting possession by giving him a (heavenly) city (v.16);
i.e. possession of eternal life (Jn 11:25-26);

3) the error that unbelieving Jews who reject the NT for the OT are God's people (inheriting
his promises) contradicts the clear and explicit teaching of:

a) Lk 10:16 - Christ rejecters are by definition God rejectors;
b) Lk 19:27 - Christ rejecters are enemies of God;
c) Heb 6:6 - all Christ rejecters are guilty of the blood of Christ;
d) Jn 3:18b, 36 - all Christ rejecters are eternally damned;
e) etc., etc., etc.

We are not free to interpret prophecy, nor to come up
with principles (e.g., all OT promises must have a literal, earthly fulfillment)
that contradict NT teaching, no matter how many sincere scholars endorse them.

Sincere scholars have been endorsing unbiblical teaching since the Church began
(Judaizers, Montanus, Menander, Saturninus, Marcion, Tertullian, Novatian, Valentinus, etc.).
The teaching that Israel has a future apart from and outside the Church is nowhere found
in the history of the Church, because it contradicts the whole NT.
It only made its appearance about 150 years ago.

We must not trim the sail of NT teaching to fit the wind of unsure interpretation
of prophetic riddles.

According to Jesus, Christ-rejecting Jews are enemies of God (Lk 19:27), as are all
Christ rejecters (Lk 10:16).
And according to Jesus, God's remedy for the Jews is the same as his remedy for all Christ
rejecters, faith in Christ Jesus (Jn 3:18).

There is no favor of God outside Jesus Christ (Jn 3:36), and
there is no special dispensation for Jews apart from and outside the Church, the Bride of Christ
(Rev 22:15; Jn 10:16; Ro 11:23; Heb 11:39-40, 12:22-23; Rev 21:9-14).
 
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BradC

Guest
your doctrine is a fantasy cooked up by evil men.
keep it or don't.

don't hang your weird speeches on me.
If anyone has a history of strange speeches that you relentlessly inflict on others, you need to examine your own propaganda and misplaced theology. It is a contrived travesty by those who can not bring themselves to charge God with favoritism toward Israel and the children of Israel, so they interpret the scripture to satisfy their own lust and charge those who believe scripture with heresy who are contrary to that lust. Perhaps you are the one that should be admonished and ignored as a propagator of subversion tactics. No one that has the Spirit of truth and is abiding in Christ should have anything to do with this or with those who ascribe to what you bring on this forum. You are partially delusional if you think we hang our head with shame over the truth that we have learned through the Spirit. At the same time we are not surprised with this opposition and should be prepared for greater measures that try to subvert believers away from the truth. You will not succeed no matter how much effort you make in your labors.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
except the blind jews who get unblind and saved magically when the mystery gentile church vanishes.

you teach some other gospel and another christ.

if His work wasn't finished for them, it's not finished for you.
magically???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

* welcome the wrong messiah
* get their temple built
* get betrayed by their false messiah
* get preached to by Moses and Elijah
* get attacked by the United Nations
* lose 2/3 of all Jews in the process
* hide in Petra
* pray for the true messah and FINALLY see that the christians were right all along and he came 2000 years before
* finally repent and witness Him appear in the heavens and rescue them after 7 years of agony

MAGIC INDEED!!!
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
magically???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

* welcome the wrong messiah
* get their temple built
* get betrayed by their false messiah
* get preached to by Moses and Elijah
* get attacked by the United Nations
* lose 2/3 of all Jews in the process
* hide in Petra
* pray for the true messah and FINALLY see that the christians were right all along and he came 2000 years before
* finally repent and witness Him appear in the heavens and rescue them after 7 years of agony

MAGIC INDEED!!!
The quickest cliff notes of Left Behind EVAR!!! :-D

In all seriousness, how does dispensation explain the "Jews" who received Christ. I mean, if the Gentile was just a glitch in the matrix, then what would those accepted Jews be considered?
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
The alternative is Replacement theology which you espouse - the inevitable result of which is antisemitism which you clearly practice. - just not smart (Gen 12:3)

A Biblical Critique of the Two-fold Theory
of Dispensationalism: The Distinction
between Israel and the Church


by
Dr Noel Woodbridge

Abstract
After a brief review of the historical development and essential characteristics of Dispensationalism, this article argues Dispensationalism’s sharp distinction between Israel and the church represents a serious departure from sound exegetical theology resulting in a distortion of key Biblical doctrines.

http://www.satsonline.org/userfiles/Woodbridge,Dispensationalism.pdf

...

"What is indisputably, absolutely, and uncompromisingly essential to the Christian religion is its doctrine of salvation… If Dispensationalism has actually departed from the only way of salvation which the Christian religion teaches, then we must say it has departed from Christianity. No matter how many other important truths it proclaims, it cannot be called Christian if it empties Christianity of its essential message. We define a cult as a religion which claims to be Christian while emptying Christianity of that which is essential to it. If Dispensationalism does this, then Dispensationalism is a cult and not a branch of the Christian church. It is as serious as that. It is impossible to exaggerate the gravity of the situation."

- John H. Gerstner, Wrongly Dividing the Word of Truth: A Critique of Dispensationalism (Brentwood TN: Wolgemuth & Hyatt, 1991), 150.

.....

In recent years a most dangerous deception known as the "secret rapture" has captivated many foremost ministers and teachers of the popular churches. This heresy is grouped with other pernicious teachings, equally dangerous and deceptive, in what is known as "modern dispensationalism." Many of the so-called Fundamentalist Bible schools sponsor the sevenfold errors of dispensationalism. The chief agency in its promulgation is the Scofield Reference Bible.

Near the beginning of the present century, this new and "strange" doctrine was first brought to America by Malachi Taylor, one of the Plymouth Brethren. Among those cap*tivated by it was Dr. C. I. Scofield, who became its leading exponent. He prepared a new edi*tion of the Bible, and with notes, headings, sub*headings, and summaries, imposed upon the Bible a system of error as subtle and Satanic as any that has ever been invented by the master deceiver. The very fact that these errors are bound together in one volume with the Scrip*tures of truth, may account for the rapidity with which the fire of evil has spread.

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1942/11/sevenfold-errors-of-dispensationalism

...

These seven dispensations are fittingly labeled as "arbitrary, fanciful, and destitute of Scriptural support." There is no Scriptural men*tion of a dispensation of human conscience dur*ing the period before the flood. Neither is there mention of the reign of human government dur*ing the period from the flood to Abraham. And while promises were made to Abraham, precious promises are likewise made to the children of Abraham, who are the blood-bought of the ages. But the most serious evils are found in the so-called fifth, sixth, and seventh dispensations. Every lover and teacher of truth ought to know the magnitude of these errors and battle against them, using the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. The seven principal errors of the Scofield Reference Bible may be listed as follows :

1. Dispensationalism.

2. Antinomianism.

3. False ideas of the antichrist.

4. The "secret rapture."

5. The return of the Jew to Jerusalem.

6. False teachings in regard to the kingdom.

7. False hope of a second chance.

It is impossible to give an exhaus*tive study of these errors in the Ministry. More complete study was given them in a series of articles in the Review and Herald, starting Nov. 13, 1941. An exposure of the heresy in all its aspects is given by Philip Mauro, noted Fun*damentalist, member of the bar of the United States Supreme Court, in his book, "The Gos*pel of the Kingdom, With an Examination of Modern Dispensationalism."

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1942/11/sevenfold-errors-of-dispensationalism

...

Scofield devised the timetables utilized by men like Hal Lindsay and Tim LaHaye.Scofield’s notes advocated the “ gap” theory regarding creation. The gap theory refutes God’s statement of His literal six day creation. D.L. Moody was apparently responsible for perpetuating dispensationalism in America, incidentally. In 1890 Scofield began a Bible Correspondence Course which was eventually taken over by Moody Bible institute which spread worldwide the dispensational heresy. Scofield was the head of the Southwestern School of the Bible in Dallas for a while. This was the forerunner of Dallas Theological Seminary. Dispensationalists assert they have special claim to truth.

Foolishly, most people sear their consciences when they hear or read heresy in seminaries. They know what they are reading or hearing is Biblically incorrect, but are afraid to challenge the disseminators of false information.

David Jeremiah blasphemy: Dispensational Heresy

....

The new doctrine was widely accepted in America, due to popular prophetic meetings such as the Niagara Bible Conferences. C.I. Scofield promulgated dispensational thought in his Scofield Reference Bible. Dispensational Bible institutes by the hundreds have sprung up across the continent – notably Moody Bible Institute and Dallas Theological Seminary. Media evangelists such as Jerry Fallwell, Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, and Hal Lindsey popularize dispensational eschatology today. Most likely you have heard these doctrines taught over Christian radio programs, and yes, from your own church’s pulpit, though probably no one defined the theological system as dispensationalism nor the origination as Darby circa 1832.

Dispensationalists view the teaching as a return to Biblical theology, after nearly 1,800 years of darkness. But, since the day Darby began to preach the doctrine, Godly men have opposed. Many books have been published exposing the flaws in the intricate system. Most hack away at the branches, arguing peripheral issues. We intend to lay the axe to the root of the tree.

‘My brother, I am a constant reader of my Bible, and I soon found that what I was taught to believe (by Darby’s doctrine) did not always agree with what my Bible said. I came to see that I must either part company with John Darby, or my precious Bible, and I chose to cling to my Bible and part from Mr. Darby.’ – George Müeller, a contemporary and one time supporter of Darby quoted by Robert Cameron in his book SCRIPTURAL TRUTH ABOUT THE LORD’S RETURN, pp.146-7

Dispensationalism: A Return to Biblical Theology or Pseudo Christian Cult – Part I by Gospel Plow
 
Jan 21, 2013
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If we support people who hate Jesus Christ just because of their ethnicity, then we love a persons skin/flesh over Jesus Christ ! That is Idolatry !
 
M

Married_Richenbrachen

Guest
magically???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Here's where I get a little confused. So do all Dispensationalists believe (like Hagee) that those calling themselves Jews (e.g. the synagogue of Satan) shouldn't be preached to, because they will repent at the coming of Jesus? And if some Dispensationalists do preach to the Jews, what reason would the Jews have for believing (now), if they are told they will automatically believe when Jesus comes? (Sure, *every* knee will bow, and *every* tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord. But this will be too late for many of them).

Can't Dispensationalists see this doctrine is as false as the JW doctrine that everyone will get a second chance to repent after the resurrection? Or have I misrepresented the Dispensationalist position?
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
The alternative is Replacement theology which you espouse - the inevitable result of which is antisemitism which you clearly practice. - just not smart (Gen 12:3)
You know God was speaking directly with Abraham right? Scoffield took seriously liberties with twisting that scripture and I guess totally overlooked the fact that God specified "your descendants" in verse 7.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the cabinet on Sunday that a recent upsurge in terrorist attacks in the West Bank were partially the result of incitement which the Palestinian Authority itself was largely responsible for. "We are not satisfied that because of the [government's] aggressive security policy, this year has been the quietest in more than a decade," he said, noting attacks such as the one that almost killed 9-year old Noam Glick in the settlement of Psagot on Saturday. Glick was shot in her home by a terrorist who penetrated the community's perimeter fence. Adding that terrorists must understand the futility of such attacks in trying to intimidate Jews into leaving Israel, Netanyahu declared "we are here, and we are here to stay.


:eek:

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


[video=youtube;V1ovdA1VZ-c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ovdA1VZ-c[/video]
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu told the cabinet on Sunday that a recent upsurge in terrorist attacks in the West Bank were partially the result of incitement which the Palestinian Authority itself was largely responsible for. "We are not satisfied that because of the [government's] aggressive security policy, this year has been the quietest in more than a decade," he said, noting attacks such as the one that almost killed 9-year old Noam Glick in the settlement of Psagot on Saturday. Glick was shot in her home by a terrorist who penetrated the community's perimeter fence. Adding that terrorists must understand the futility of such attacks in trying to intimidate Jews into leaving Israel, Netanyahu declared "we are here, and we are here to stay.
You do know that alot of people believe that the State of Israel is an apartheid state with pretty damaging evidence to back it up..I'm just saying.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
I dont know what notes you are reading but I will tell you what the Bible says,

"your seed will be as the sand on the seashore" - ie physical descendants = jews
"and as the stars in the sky" - ie spiritual descendants = saved from all dispenstions


You know God was speaking directly with Abraham right? Scoffield took seriously liberties with twisting that scripture and I guess totally overlooked the fact that God specified "your descendants" in verse 7.
 
B

BradC

Guest
If we support people who hate Jesus Christ just because of their ethnicity, then we love a persons skin/flesh over Jesus Christ ! That is Idolatry !
Is it wrong for the US to support Israel because they live in unbelief? Is it wrong for Christians to identify with the US in their support of Israel against those who hate them and are their enemies? What does flesh/skin have to do with anything? They are a nation of people that have been gathering back into their homeland since 1948 and have been very productive in doing so and in a short time have become a great power in their own region and around the world. I suppose that God has had nothing to do with their return or in their fruitfulness that has been produced in that barren land? Do they look like a forsaken people who have no favor from God? Are you jealous of their progress and success in Israel or do you commend them for what they have accomplished? There will always be those that will think evil of the Jews but does that mean that you have to take on that spirit?
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,398
8,936
113
The alternative is Replacement theology which you espouse - the inevitable result of which is antisemitism which you clearly practice. - just not smart (Gen 12:3)

You have very succinctly nailed why some of these people have no problem with disparaging Jewish people so easily. "because of sin, the love of many will grow cold".

I guess there is fruit in exposing them for what they are to the casual reader, but don't delude yourself into thinking you can change their mind. Maybe God will soften their hearts, but I suspect their ever growing appetite for anti-semitism is only being fed and made stronger here.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
You do know that alot of people believe that the State of Israel is an apartheid state with pretty damaging evidence to back it up..I'm just saying.
you havn;t seen an apartheid state until you have been a jew or a christian in a moslem country
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
your trouble is you are not as clever as zone
so your intellectual dishonesty sticks out

I never said dont preach to jews (Rom 1:16)

you are setting up a straw man

this is dishonest



Here's where I get a little confused. So do all Dispensationalists believe (like Hagee) that those calling themselves Jews (e.g. the synagogue of Satan) shouldn't be preached to, because they will repent at the coming of Jesus? And if some Dispensationalists do preach to the Jews, what reason would the Jews have for believing (now), if they are told they will automatically believe when Jesus comes? (Sure, *every* knee will bow, and *every* tongue confess, that Jesus Christ is Lord. But this will be too late for many of them).

Can't Dispensationalists see this doctrine is as false as the JW doctrine that everyone will get a second chance to repent after the resurrection? Or have I misrepresented the Dispensationalist position?
 
L

LT

Guest
i hope you are addressing someone else. because Revelation is NOT my source for salvation.

dispensationalism develops its doctrine of salvation FROM its eschatology.

if you would like proof - from their own material, please ask.
ill post resources.
you decide.

and just from whence come all these arguments and schisms....from the Dispensational camp - which did not exist 150 years ago.
one gospel for the jew and one for the gentile - no matter HOW you wrap it.

multiple Plans of God instead of ONE PLAN.
I thought what I was saying was pretty clear.... Dispensationalism is not heresy. I do disagree with it, the same as you do; and I believe it often produces zealous Zionists instead of witnessing Christians, but it still preaches the Lordship of Jesus Christ, and salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. I'm just asking you to argue the points, and stop calling things heresy that are debatable in Scripture.

I hold to much of your position, so I'm not trying to rebuke your points, just the attitude.