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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
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That's not "Protestant liberal Christianity"--it's one form of fake Christianity known as Dispensationalism.

Post #472 in this thread makes this quite clear.

ironic isn't it?
dispensationalism keeps "Israel & the Church separate"!
for all eternity (at it's roots...Darby et al...i wonder why that doesn't make dispies shiver)?

whereas:

Covenant Theology; NT Theology says jews are part of the family of nations.
the Gospel has gone out to all nations, beginning with Judea and Jerusalem.
it started with the devout Jews gathered for pentecost.
One Gospel; One Lord; One Faith; One Flock.

course if we keep playing the shell game with "who is Israel" i reckon we'll never figure it out.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
It appears that you and your friends' noses are pretty much "bent out of shape". It is your group who are "forcing your opinion" into the Bible.
Assertions without demonstrations are without merit.

The article I posted is not a "personal opinion"...
Then please support it Biblically.

There is no such thing as "NT Christianity"...
What other standard for Christianity is there?
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
it boils down to this; your doctrine of israel + your doctrine of the church

According to sound doctrine there was a time when the church did not exist and there will again come a time when the church is complete(and removed)

people were saved by faith before the church existed
people will be saved by faith after the church has been completed
God has always had a plan for Israel and God's dealings with Israel are not finished yet - in fact they never will be ended

ironic isn't it?
dispensationalism keeps "Israel & the Church separate"!
for all eternity (at it's roots...Darby et al...i wonder why that doesn't make dispies shiver)?

whereas:

Covenant Theology; NT Theology says jews are part of the family of nations.
the Gospel has gone out to all nations, beginning with Judea and Jerusalem.
it started with the devout Jews gathered for pentecost.
One Gospel; One Lord; One Faith; One Flock.

course if we keep playing the shell game with "who is Israel" i reckon we'll never figure it out.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
it boils down to this; your doctrine of israel + your doctrine of the church

According to sound doctrine there was a time when the church did not exist and there will again come a time when the church is complete(and removed)

people were saved by faith before the church existed
people will be saved by faith after the church has been completed
God has always had a plan for Israel and God's dealings with Israel are not finished yet - in fact they never will be ended
According to sound doctrine there was a time when the church did not exist and there will again come a time when the church is complete(and removed) < document the removed part please:confused: from the bible (you can use your Scofield notes if you like)

so, Israel NEVER joins the church?

there will again come a time when the church is complete + (and removed)

the church is complete - without the jews (Israel) - is that what you are saying...and the church is removed when it is complete (without the jews...Israel).

where are the jews...Israel....after the complete church is removed.

do they ever join.
 
B

BradC

Guest
It saddens me that you call yourself a Jew, yet resort to such anti-Semitism against your fellow Jews. If you are a real Jew (it sounds like you might be into some heresies, if not false doctrines, from that Dispensational Israelology comment), I guess this is an issue between you and Jesus.

Psychomom has kindly reposted for you the scripture you requested, proving that true Christians are true Jews. :D
The Jew and Gentile Christians who believe by faith are members of the body of Christ and have been made to be partakers of that one body. The Gentiles are not Jews and the Jews are not Gentiles but both have been made to be one in Christ because of the blood of Christ. The passage in Rom 2 that you and others refer to is completely misunderstood and falsely refers to Christians as true Jews. Paul is correcting the attitude of the heart of those Jews who believe they are a Jew by outward circumcision of the flesh through the letter, but instead they are truly Jews through the inward circumcision of the heart through the Spirit. That was meant for correction to the Jews (not Gentiles) but you misapply it and it becomes error and it leads into more error in your understanding and many of you refuse to see it, so perhaps you are also blind in a similar fashion.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
the church includes some jews and some gentiles

According to sound doctrine there was a time when the church did not exist and there will again come a time when the church is complete(and removed) < document the removed part please:confused: from the bible (you can use your Scofield notes if you like)

so, Israel NEVER joins the church?

there will again come a time when the church is complete + (and removed)

the church is complete - without the jews (Israel) - is that what you are saying...and the church is removed when it is complete (without the jews...Israel).

where are the jews...Israel....after the complete church is removed.

do they ever join.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
people will be saved by faith after the church has been completed
document please.
is the church complete and removed at this point.
who is on earth.
how are they saved by faith:confused:.....theres no church or Gospel or Holy Spirit...is that right:confused:

if they are saved by faith why CANT THEY JOIN THE CHURCH - HOW CAN THE CHURCH BE COMPLETE WITHOUT THEM:confused:

total heresy
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
the church includes some jews and some gentiles
jews that are NO LONGER ISRAEL , then.
because Israel and the Church are separate.

How come Paul gets to be part of the Chur.....hold on....does Paul get to be part of the Church...or does he come back to earth to be part of Israel.

since God is not the author of confusion....i wonder where this doctrine comes from.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
coocaw

According to sound doctrine there was a time when the church did not exist and there will again come a time when the church is complete(and removed) < document the removed part please:confused: from the bible (you can use your Scofield notes if you like)
..............
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.



document please.
is the church complete and removed at this point.
who is on earth.
how are they saved by faith:confused:.....theres no church or Gospel or Holy Spirit...is that right:confused:

if they are saved by faith why CANT THEY JOIN THE CHURCH - HOW CAN THE CHURCH BE COMPLETE WITHOUT THEM:confused:

total heresy
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
ironic isn't it?
dispensationalism keeps "Israel & the Church separate"!
for all eternity (at it's roots...Darby et al...i wonder why that doesn't make dispies shiver)?

whereas:

Covenant Theology; NT Theology says jews are part of the family of nations.
the Gospel has gone out to all nations, beginning with Judea and Jerusalem.
it started with the devout Jews gathered for pentecost.
One Gospel; One Lord; One Faith; One Flock.

course if we keep playing the shell game with "who is Israel" i reckon we'll never figure it out.
That's one thing that I never got about dispensations? If Israel and the Church are separate, it totally contradicts Acts and the earliest Christian's being Israelites. It also totally ignores that while Paul was going for the Gentiles, the other disciples were still trying to reach Judeans. It's just a whole lot of confusion with that, or I'm just not that good at "rightly dividing." (considering that there is no concrete time the "Church Age" started, I guess they aren't neither *shrugs*)
 
Dec 21, 2012
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According to this Christian document, Jewish history has become “Palestinian Arab history”
:eek:

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


[video=youtube;V1ovdA1VZ-c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ovdA1VZ-c[/video]
 
B

BradC

Guest
document please.
is the church complete and removed at this point.
who is on earth.
how are they saved by faith:confused:.....theres no church or Gospel or Holy Spirit...is that right:confused:

if they are saved by faith why CANT THEY JOIN THE CHURCH - HOW CAN THE CHURCH BE COMPLETE WITHOUT THEM:confused:

total heresy
This is where you like to use foolishness as arguments to discredit dispensationalism and justify your own beliefs. You have no capacity to think this through, because if you did you would have the answers to your questions, which are BTW rooted in unbelief all the way through. You have asked those questions a hundred times and they have been answered but not to your liking or approval so you have no grace to understand these things in the Spirit, who you are suppose to have dwelling in you to guide you into all truth. What has happened Zone, where have you been hindered and what is the obstacle that has been put in your understanding that has kept the light of these things from being revealed to you? You have to label these things as heresy because you have no peace or edification in your understanding because certain knowledge has puffed you up and obscured your faith.
 
C

CoooCaw

Guest
I personally have had rocks thrown at me by jewish children and more often by palestinian children
i have had a palestinian draw a gun on me
the other insight is that palestinians are notoriuous liars and propogandists

:eek:

Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of [these] little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Luke 17:2 It were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he cast into the sea, than that he should offend one of these little ones.


[video=youtube;V1ovdA1VZ-c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1ovdA1VZ-c[/video]
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
do you believe the JEWS at the Council at Jerusalem that AMOS was fuflilled?

here it is in the NASB which capitalizes OT so you can know for certain where to look.



Acts 15
The Council at Jerusalem


1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue. 3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

12All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

James’s Judgment

13After they had stopped speaking, James answered, saying, “Brethren, listen to me. 14“Simeon has related how God first concerned Himself about taking from among the Gentiles a people for His name. 15“With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written,

16‘AFTER THESE THINGS I will return,
AND I WILL REBUILD THE TABERNACLE OF DAVID WHICH HAS FALLEN,
AND I WILL REBUILD ITS RUINS,
AND I WILL RESTORE IT,

17SO THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY SEEK THE LORD,
AND ALL THE GENTILES WHO ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,’

18SAYS THE LORD, WHO MAKES THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM LONG AGO.

19“Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles, 20but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood. 21“For Moses from ancient generations has in every city those who preach him, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

22Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them to send to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas—Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, 23and they sent this letter by them,

“The apostles and the brethren who are elders, to the brethren in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia who are from the Gentiles, greetings.

24“Since we have heard that some of our number to whom we gave no instruction have disturbed you with their words, unsettling your souls,

25it seemed good to us, having become of one mind, to select men to send to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

26men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

27“Therefore we have sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will also report the same things by word of mouth.

28“For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay upon you no greater burden than these essentials:
29that you abstain from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication; if you keep yourselves free from such things, you will do well. Farewell.”

30So when they were sent away, they went down to Antioch; and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. 31When they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. 32Judas and Silas, also being prophets themselves, encouraged and strengthened the brethren with a lengthy message. 33After they had spent time there, they were sent away from the brethren in peace to those who had sent them out. 34[But it seemed good to Silas to remain there.] 35But Paul and Barnabas stayed in Antioch, teaching and preaching with many others also, the word of the Lord.



so should we believe James who declared Amos fulfilled?
could you please use the quote feature when you reply to this post, since it will be useful to see how you deny the Holy Spirit and the God-Breathed Scriptures.

t.y.
 
Dec 21, 2012
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I personally have had rocks thrown at me by jewish children
We already know that Israel is in line for some discipline; we also know that what you have been sowing you gonna reap bigtime!
:eek:

Eccl 2:17 Therefore I hated life; because the work that is wrought under the sun [is] grievous unto me: for all [is] vanity and vexation of spirit.
 

Elin

Banned
Jan 19, 2013
11,909
141
0
This is where you like to use foolishness as arguments to discredit dispensationalism and justify your own beliefs. You have no capacity to think this through, because if you did you would have the answers to your questions, which are BTW rooted in unbelief all the way through. You have asked those questions a hundred times and they have been answered but not to your liking or approval so you have no grace to understand these things in the Spirit, who you are suppose to have dwelling in you to guide you into all truth. What has happened Zone, where have you been hindered and what is the obstacle that has been put in your understanding that has kept the light of these things from being revealed to you? You have to label these things as heresy because you have no peace or edification in your understanding because certain knowledge has puffed you up and obscured your faith.
Less blame-shifting of your failure to answer questions Biblically,

less drip, drip of guilting to get people to do what you want them to do is in order here.

Answer the questions directly and Biblically.
You spend more time dancing around and dodging them than it would take to just simply answer them.
 
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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
This is where you like to use foolishness as arguments to discredit dispensationalism and justify your own beliefs. You have no capacity to think this through, because if you did you would have the answers to your questions, which are BTW rooted in unbelief all the way through. You have asked those questions a hundred times and they have been answered but not to your liking or approval so you have no grace to understand these things in the Spirit, who you are suppose to have dwelling in you to guide you into all truth. What has happened Zone, where have you been hindered and what is the obstacle that has been put in your understanding that has kept the light of these things from being revealed to you? You have to label these things as heresy because you have no peace or edification in your understanding because certain knowledge has puffed you up and obscured your faith.
speeches speeches.
defending the cult of dispensationalism.

there's no "understanding these things in the Spirit" as being from Him; His Plan.

there is understanding from Him, however, that these things are not from Him.
the fact you are not convicted by Him over this false doctrine ought to concern you.
i know it concerns me a great deal that you're not.

but, i will keep posting against dispensationalism - you go right on ahead and try to justify it - from the Scriptures.
we have nothing in common.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
document please.

is the church complete and removed at this point.

who is on earth.

how are they saved by faith:confused:.....theres no church or Gospel or Holy Spirit...is that right:confused:

if they are saved by faith why CANT THEY JOIN THE CHURCH - HOW CAN THE CHURCH BE COMPLETE WITHOUT THEM:confused:
This is where you like to use foolishness as arguments to discredit dispensationalism and justify your own beliefs. You have no capacity to think this through, because if you did you would have the answers to your questions, which are BTW rooted in unbelief all the way through. You have asked those questions a hundred times and they have been answered but not to your liking or approval so you have no grace to understand these things in the Spirit, who you are suppose to have dwelling in you to guide you into all truth. What has happened Zone, where have you been hindered and what is the obstacle that has been put in your understanding that has kept the light of these things from being revealed to you? You have to label these things as heresy because you have no peace or edification in your understanding because certain knowledge has puffed you up and obscured your faith.
Red33:

document from THE BIBLE only:

the church is separate from Israel
the church is a parenthesis in God's Plan for Israel
the church was unforeseen in the OT
the church reaches completion without Israel and is removed from earth (rapture)
Israel is not part of the church
Israel gets saved by faith on earth when the church is complete and gone.
Israel never joins the church even though ALL ISRAEL gets saved by faith on earth after the church is gone.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

15And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:

17That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
how can you folks continue to do this in good conscience?
i'd be very worried. about doing what you do AFTER you've seen it repeatedly.