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B
Rom 11:30-33 30 Just as you (Gentiles) were once disobedient and rebellious toward God but now have obtained [His] mercy, through their (Israel's) disobedience,31 So they (Israel) also now are being disobedient [when you (Gentiles) are receiving mercy], that they (Israel) in turn may one day, through the mercy you (Gentiles) are enjoying, also receive mercy [that they (Israel) may share the mercy which has been shown to you (Gentiles)—through you (Gentiles) as messengers of the Gospel to them].
32 For God has consigned (penned up) all men (Jew & Gentile) to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable (inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untraceable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)!
God is provoking Israel to jealousy in their partial blindness and disobedience by giving mercy to the Gentiles despite Israel's adherence to the Torah or the Talmud. This is also part of their blindness that rejects Christ at his first coming and the history and testimony of the scriptures that followed him. The prophecies of Christ and of God's son being born into this world at the appointed time which have already been fulfilled, they reject these through disobedience and that results in the blindness and hardness of heart. There is a remnant that have believed upon Christ, who has already come, and they trust in him by faith through grace and mercy being given to them through the gospel given to the Gentiles. They are only a remnant who have believed but all of Israel have not believed and have been blinded. The Gentiles who have received mercy is a testimony of God's merciful salvation and has provoked Israel to jealousy that has blinded their hearts to reject Christ all these years.
To say that Israel is not a people is to reject God's plan of mercy to save them through the same Messiah and Christ that came also for the Gentiles. Paul has revealed the mystery of this plan by revelation to the church body. Has God cast away HIS people, GOD FORBID!
Rom 11:7-12 7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).
8 As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day.
9 And David says, Let their table (their feasting, banqueting) become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a just retribution [rebounding like a boomerang upon them];
10 Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.
11 So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous.
12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel’s] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!
25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the in gathering of the Gentiles has come in,
26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.
28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
Paul is speaking to Gentile believers and if you are a gentile believer you should heed what Paul is revealing of a mystery and hidden truth.
32 For God has consigned (penned up) all men (Jew & Gentile) to disobedience, only that He may have mercy on them all [alike].
33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unfathomable (inscrutable, unsearchable) are His judgments (His decisions)! And how untraceable (mysterious, undiscoverable) are His ways (His methods, His paths)!
God is provoking Israel to jealousy in their partial blindness and disobedience by giving mercy to the Gentiles despite Israel's adherence to the Torah or the Talmud. This is also part of their blindness that rejects Christ at his first coming and the history and testimony of the scriptures that followed him. The prophecies of Christ and of God's son being born into this world at the appointed time which have already been fulfilled, they reject these through disobedience and that results in the blindness and hardness of heart. There is a remnant that have believed upon Christ, who has already come, and they trust in him by faith through grace and mercy being given to them through the gospel given to the Gentiles. They are only a remnant who have believed but all of Israel have not believed and have been blinded. The Gentiles who have received mercy is a testimony of God's merciful salvation and has provoked Israel to jealousy that has blinded their hearts to reject Christ all these years.
To say that Israel is not a people is to reject God's plan of mercy to save them through the same Messiah and Christ that came also for the Gentiles. Paul has revealed the mystery of this plan by revelation to the church body. Has God cast away HIS people, GOD FORBID!
Rom 11:7-12 7 What then [shall we conclude]? Israel failed to obtain what it sought [God’s favor by obedience to the Law]. Only the elect (those chosen few) obtained it, while the rest of them became callously indifferent (blinded, hardened, and made insensible to it).
8 As it is written, God gave them a spirit (an attitude) of stupor, eyes that should not see and ears that should not hear, [that has continued] down to this very day.
9 And David says, Let their table (their feasting, banqueting) become a snare and a trap, a pitfall and a just retribution [rebounding like a boomerang upon them];
10 Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.
11 So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous.
12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel’s] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!
25 Lest you be self-opinionated (wise in your own conceits), I do not want you to miss this hidden truth and mystery, brethren: a hardening (insensibility) has [temporarily] befallen a part of Israel [to last] until the full number of the in gathering of the Gentiles has come in,
26 And so all Israel will be saved. As it is written, The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will banish ungodliness from Jacob.
27 And this will be My covenant (My agreement) with them when I shall take away their sins.
28 From the point of view of the Gospel (good news), they [the Jews, at present] are enemies [of God], which is for your advantage and benefit. But from the point of view of God’s choice (of election, of divine selection), they are still the beloved (dear to Him) for the sake of their forefathers.
29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.]
Paul is speaking to Gentile believers and if you are a gentile believer you should heed what Paul is revealing of a mystery and hidden truth.
to make your 2000 year gap dispensationalism work, you have use the Dispensational Amplified Bible AND add to it yourself.
it's amazing to me that you don't mind making Paul contradict himself in his own lifetime.
Romans 11:14
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them. 15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
wasn't he not only wasting his time and energy, but going against God Himself according to your Mystery Gentile Church Age dogma??
what kind of God do you believe in?
what kind of God do you believe in Who would provoke the jews through jealousy WITHOUT PROVIDING SALVATION as a result of it?
and would supposedly be doing this for 2000 YEARS?
there's really no more excuse for this twisted doctrine.
i wonder where is the Holy Spirit working in someone who reads exactly the OPPOSITE of the TRUTH into those passages.
ALL ISRAEL < you better find out how badly you are distorting Paul's teachings.
you might want to get a clue as to how far reaching the damage this false doctrine has done, and is doing.
then that absurd pretribulation rapture fiasco mixed in.
what folly and mockery of God's perfect Plan.
D
Jews rejected Jesus.
Jews orchestrated the murder of Jesus.
The Jews still follow a useless set of laws that Christ "fulfilled" at His death.
The Jews killed God's prophets.
The Jews Constantly went after false gods and idols instead of perusing the one true God.
God referred to the Jews as "stiff necked".
The Jews continue to claim Jesus is not the messiah.
What part of the above should I support?
Yes, the Jews remain as God's people even though they rejected him and his Son many times. I am proud to be called Christian.
Jews orchestrated the murder of Jesus.
The Jews still follow a useless set of laws that Christ "fulfilled" at His death.
The Jews killed God's prophets.
The Jews Constantly went after false gods and idols instead of perusing the one true God.
God referred to the Jews as "stiff necked".
The Jews continue to claim Jesus is not the messiah.
What part of the above should I support?
Yes, the Jews remain as God's people even though they rejected him and his Son many times. I am proud to be called Christian.
This is a twist from the meaning of the text:
"Because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. . .I make much of my ministry to the Gentiles in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them." (Ro 11:11, 14)
Unless God and Paul are working at opposite purposes, conversion of the Gentiles to make Israel envious is not to harden and blind Israel, it is to cause them to want what the Gentiles have so they will be moved to accept Christ Jesus.
Their envy is not the cause of their hardness and blindness, God is the cause of their hardness and blindness.
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." (Ro 11:7-8)
Yes, the blindness that rejected Christ while he was on earth and preached to them was due to their disobedience, but their blindness and hardness of heart now is due to God giving them a spirit of stupor (Ro 11:7-8).
That is a twisting of the text's meaning.
God does not make them jealous in order to blind and harden them, but to save them.
And because he has not cast away his people, he is now saving a remnant of them.
Paul is speaking of the people Israel as a whole, not of an individual Israelite.
Any Israelite who dies in unbelief of Christ Jesus is irretrievable from utter spiritual ruin.
However, the whole people of Israel has not fallen beyond recovery because God is now saving a remnant.
"Full reinstatement" is "the fullness of their reinstatement," as in "the fullness of the Gentiles."
And to be raised from spiritual death and given new birth into eternal life in Christ Jesus will be a greater advantage than any advantage of being a Jew, as previously iterated (3:1-2, 9:4-5).
Yes, and that irrevocable gift and call to Israel is now being fulfilled, in a remnant.
"Because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. . .I make much of my ministry to the Gentiles in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them." (Ro 11:11, 14)
Unless God and Paul are working at opposite purposes, conversion of the Gentiles to make Israel envious is not to harden and blind Israel, it is to cause them to want what the Gentiles have so they will be moved to accept Christ Jesus.
Their envy is not the cause of their hardness and blindness, God is the cause of their hardness and blindness.
"God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day." (Ro 11:7-8)
Yes, the blindness that rejected Christ while he was on earth and preached to them was due to their disobedience, but their blindness and hardness of heart now is due to God giving them a spirit of stupor (Ro 11:7-8).
That is a twisting of the text's meaning.
God does not make them jealous in order to blind and harden them, but to save them.
And because he has not cast away his people, he is now saving a remnant of them.
Paul is speaking of the people Israel as a whole, not of an individual Israelite.
Any Israelite who dies in unbelief of Christ Jesus is irretrievable from utter spiritual ruin.
However, the whole people of Israel has not fallen beyond recovery because God is now saving a remnant.
"Full reinstatement" is "the fullness of their reinstatement," as in "the fullness of the Gentiles."
And to be raised from spiritual death and given new birth into eternal life in Christ Jesus will be a greater advantage than any advantage of being a Jew, as previously iterated (3:1-2, 9:4-5).
Yes, and that irrevocable gift and call to Israel is now being fulfilled, in a remnant.
B
When Christ comes again they (Israel) shall see him and realize what a terrible mistake they have made as a chosen and elect people who have lived in unbelief all this time. They will see him and they will believe in him and God will take away their sins and they will be saved and they will mourn greatly as one who mourns for their only son. God is faithful and never forget what he has promised.
There is no promise from God to take away anyone's sins when Jesus comes again.
Forgiveness of sin is only between his first and second comings.
The door is shut at the second coming, and no more can enter into salvation.
When Christ comes again, it will be to judge all mankind at the resurrection.
Peter says that "he must remain in heaven until the time comes to restore everything" (Ac 3:21)
in the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:12-13) at the end of time.
There is no more time, only resurrection, judgment and eternity, when Christ returns.
The letter to the Hebrews states the same thing: there will be no appearing of Christ prior to his
coming in judgment, for he appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge (Heb 7:28-29),
and not in between.
Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once
to judge (2Th 1:7-10), at which time he will "bring salvation," the resurrection of our bodies
and completion of our adoption as sons.
Forgiveness of sin is only between his first and second comings.
The door is shut at the second coming, and no more can enter into salvation.
When Christ comes again, it will be to judge all mankind at the resurrection.
Peter says that "he must remain in heaven until the time comes to restore everything" (Ac 3:21)
in the new heavens and new earth (2Pe 3:12-13) at the end of time.
There is no more time, only resurrection, judgment and eternity, when Christ returns.
The letter to the Hebrews states the same thing: there will be no appearing of Christ prior to his
coming in judgment, for he appears but twice, once to atone and once to judge (Heb 7:28-29),
and not in between.
Just as men die once and then face judgment, so Christ appears once to die and once
to judge (2Th 1:7-10), at which time he will "bring salvation," the resurrection of our bodies
and completion of our adoption as sons.
U
Can't the same be said for all of the world's inhabitants "when Christ comes again" ? Won't all realize what a terrible mistake they have made ? Won't all who rejected Christ mourn greatly ? Does God's promise to the Jews exempt them today from having to believe on the One whom God has sent ? What about all those other Jews that have passed on these last two-thousand years ? Will they be given the same "second chance" after seeing the Lord Jesus Christ ? Are we not all saved by grace thru faith Brad ? Do you realize that you are saying that the Jews will be saved ... even thou they did not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ ... i.e...no faith ? Faith is the substance of things hoped for ... things NOT SEEN. But yet, you claim that the Jews will be saved ... after Christ comes again ... and they have seen Him. Utterly ridiculous and false to it's core. The bible (God's Word) is a book that chronicles the history of national Israel ... but is essentially a book pertaining to spiritual Israel. Spiritual Israel is comprised of those who have believed on the Lord Jesus Christ ...i.e... His church.
What? I'm totally confused. Zone identifies as a Lutheran in her signature in every post she makes. A simple glance at Wikipedia....
In any case, "improve the world", yes, notice that Zone "Liked" this post from earlier in this thread and you didn't.
Why is that?
Is it because the Jewish people named in my post are self-defining (they really don't care what dispensationalists believe) and are very happy here in California and have zero intention of ever moving to Israel?
The US and the USSR defeated Hitler, we take credit, and the days of telling Jewish people who they are or where they should live, those days are over, which is strongly implied here:
Military Bases in Germany - US Military Bases
True facts: I'm a Christian. I'm a political Zionist. I support my local Jewish people. I support Israel. I eat at glatt kosher restaurants and delis here in Los Angeles quite often--it's delicious food and an interesting cultural experience.
Which part of that is antisemitic, CoooCaw?
If I don't support some dispensationalist fantasy or the slaughter of civilians, then my "propaganda" is labeled "antisemitic", by you.
In any case, "improve the world", yes, notice that Zone "Liked" this post from earlier in this thread and you didn't.
Why is that?
Is it because the Jewish people named in my post are self-defining (they really don't care what dispensationalists believe) and are very happy here in California and have zero intention of ever moving to Israel?
The US and the USSR defeated Hitler, we take credit, and the days of telling Jewish people who they are or where they should live, those days are over, which is strongly implied here:
Military Bases in Germany - US Military Bases
True facts: I'm a Christian. I'm a political Zionist. I support my local Jewish people. I support Israel. I eat at glatt kosher restaurants and delis here in Los Angeles quite often--it's delicious food and an interesting cultural experience.
Which part of that is antisemitic, CoooCaw?
If I don't support some dispensationalist fantasy or the slaughter of civilians, then my "propaganda" is labeled "antisemitic", by you.
Friendship with the world is enmity with Yahweh, though we are NOT here to destroy or harm the gift of the creation, this is not our home, and unbelievers are not our people. The sheep and the goats will be separated on that day, and until then we live caring for what is around us as best we are given to do.
B
Some of you are under this delusion that because the Jews had been debunked by God and rejected Christ that the Gentiles, who have received mercy, are under no obligation to give the gospel or to show God's lovingkindness unto them as you would any of the Gentiles who are also in unbelief. You make no effort in the plan of God's salvation to count them among those who have the shed blood of Christ for their redemption. You talk your way out of being merciful to them and are critical of any favor that might be showed to them. Do you love your neighbor as yourself even if they are of Israel as a Jew who practice the Torah and submit to the teachings of the Talmud? Is their rejection of Christ worthy of forgiveness through the blood of Christ or do you become stiff necked in your heart attitude toward them because they are Jews? No surprise if you do.
B
This was written to Gentile believers in Rome. I repeat.
Rom 11:10-12 10 Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.11 So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous.
12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel’s] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!
Some of you think that this only applies to a selected remnant, it applies to all of Israel, God's elect people. That is something that many of you will have to deal with. Some of you use to believe this with conviction but were turned away from it by the unscrupulous teachings of others who refuse to accept God's favor and unconditional promises that can not be altered. Don't some of you see that Paul was an example of the worst kind of Pharisee and a murderer, yet God had mercy upon him and called him by grace with a supernatural intervention? What does that say to some of you?
Is there a Jew of Israel alive today that God can not have mercy upon and when he comes again is their a Jew on the earth that will not see him for who he is and will they not believe upon him who they pierced and see coming in the glory they were looking for the first time he came? Look at all the Jews that have forfeited life because they refused to believe in Christ by faith. The same for the Gentiles during this dispensation of grace. Jesus was the king of the Jews and he returns as the king of kings and Israel will be saved when he returns after they had rejected him the first time. This has nothing to do with second chances but has everything to do with what God has promised and Israel will be reinstated contrary to what some of you believe.
Rom 11:10-12 10 Let their eyes be darkened (dimmed) so that they cannot see, and make them bend their back [stooping beneath their burden] forever.11 So I ask, Have they stumbled so as to fall [to their utter spiritual ruin, irretrievably]? By no means! But through their false step and transgression salvation [has come] to the Gentiles, so as to arouse Israel [to see and feel what they forfeited] and so to make them jealous.
12 Now if their stumbling (their lapse, their transgression) has so enriched the world [at large], and if [Israel’s] failure means such riches for the Gentiles, think what an enrichment and greater advantage will follow their full reinstatement!
Some of you think that this only applies to a selected remnant, it applies to all of Israel, God's elect people. That is something that many of you will have to deal with. Some of you use to believe this with conviction but were turned away from it by the unscrupulous teachings of others who refuse to accept God's favor and unconditional promises that can not be altered. Don't some of you see that Paul was an example of the worst kind of Pharisee and a murderer, yet God had mercy upon him and called him by grace with a supernatural intervention? What does that say to some of you?
Is there a Jew of Israel alive today that God can not have mercy upon and when he comes again is their a Jew on the earth that will not see him for who he is and will they not believe upon him who they pierced and see coming in the glory they were looking for the first time he came? Look at all the Jews that have forfeited life because they refused to believe in Christ by faith. The same for the Gentiles during this dispensation of grace. Jesus was the king of the Jews and he returns as the king of kings and Israel will be saved when he returns after they had rejected him the first time. This has nothing to do with second chances but has everything to do with what God has promised and Israel will be reinstated contrary to what some of you believe.