Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible
- Thread starter presidente
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
B
In 1Cor 13:8 we know what a gift of tongues or prophecy is, but what is a spiritual gift of knowledge? How did the church receive it, who in the church received it and what is that gift of knowledge for? Many can give examples of the gift of tongues and of prophecy but can you give us an example of the gift of knowledge that Paul said would vanish away? Zone, if you need to help her on this, be my guest and help her out if you can. I want to know what you think the gift of knowledge is that SarahM777 is referring to in context. You liked her post so you must have an idea as to what it is.
B
Here is one more thought. Many of you reject the dispensational truth, when God does something for a period of time with a group of people and then God makes it cease and goes on to somthing else. Isn't that what you have done with these spiritual gifts? Haven't you allowed for God to administer and use these gifts for a time and then have them cease and vanish away with that which is perfect having come? Wouldn't that be a form of dispensational learning when you have told us that these gifts that operated for a time have now stopped operating and are no longer needed to edify the church?
R
The spiritual gift of knowledge is also known as the “word of knowledge” or “utterance of knowledge.”* The Greek word for this gift is Gnosis and it simply means knowledge and understanding.* The Scriptural emphasis in 1 Corinthians 12:8 is on the ability to speak this knowledge to others in a given situation.* In the opening passages of 1 Corinthians, Paul spoke of knowledge and recognized that the highest form of knowledge among men is the Gospel of Jesus Christ (i.e. the testimony about Christ, cf. 1 Corinthians 1:4-7).* What we can conclude then is the gift of knowledge is an understanding of the things in this world and in our lives that is founded in the Gospel and rooted in the Scriptures.* This gift is closely related to the gift of wisdom which is alluded to by Paul in 1 Corinthians 1:18-31.
The Holy Spirit gives this spiritual gift to some believers to bring about understanding and to inform the church or individual believers.* The person with this gift is usually well-versed in the Scriptures and often has much committed to memory.* They can retain the truth and communicate it effectively at the appropriate times.* The gift of knowledge allows a believer to relate the Scriptures, and particularly the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to all aspects of life in this world.* They can see how it connects to every situation and circumstance and how the reality and truth of the Gospel is to inform every decision a Christian makes
The Holy Spirit gives this spiritual gift to some believers to bring about understanding and to inform the church or individual believers.* The person with this gift is usually well-versed in the Scriptures and often has much committed to memory.* They can retain the truth and communicate it effectively at the appropriate times.* The gift of knowledge allows a believer to relate the Scriptures, and particularly the Gospel of Jesus Christ, to all aspects of life in this world.* They can see how it connects to every situation and circumstance and how the reality and truth of the Gospel is to inform every decision a Christian makes
Yep, 1 Corinthians 12:8 "word of knowledge" is the same "knowledge" used in 13:8 - gnosis. According to Vine's Expository Dictionary it refers subjectively to God's knowledge. The Holy Spirit leads us and guides us through our spirit with word of wisdom and word of knowledge. These are not gifts but manifestation of the gift of holy spirit given to every believer. Every believer should be lead by the Holy Spirit and that is done by word of wisdom and word of knowledge. When we study the word of God. . .who leads us unto all truth? and how is it accomplished?
John 16:12,13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come he will guide you into all truth:. . . .
through word of wisdom and word of knowledge.
BUT yes, knowledge can also be learned.
Where does it say this - "in their lifetime".?
John 16:12,13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come he will guide you into all truth:. . . .
through word of wisdom and word of knowledge.
BUT yes, knowledge can also be learned.
Where does it say this - "in their lifetime".?
Last edited:
It's not complicated Paul tells the Corinthians that tongues will be stilled,knowledge will vanish,and prophecies will cease. Paul tells them so they will know this is coming. He is preparing them for the time it is coming. He is telling them so they will not be in confusion as to WHY it is happening. What need does Paul have to tell them those things will all stop if they are to continue till Jesus comes back? That makes no sense what so ever.
Again you all confuse the gifts of the spirit that Paul speaks of with other things that the Bible speaks and then you make those the SPIRITUAL GIFTS. God healed people,God gave wisdom and knowledge to the OLD TESTAMENT BELIEVERS. Yet not one of you would ever say the Old Testament believers were given the spiritual gifts.
And again why is it that the very people who claim they have the spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues are often the very ones that lack DISCERNMENT? Why does that one seem to be the one that is LACKING? Who do you all think support TBN? Guys like Benny Hinn,Creflo Dollar,Perry Stone etc etc etc? Do you think it's the people who believe the gifts ceased or it the very people who claim have the gifts of the spirit and yet they can not spot many of the fakes? Why is it that the Holy Spirit is not leading them away from these things? And it wouldn't be so bad but often many of them can not even spot the more obvious ones.
Again you all confuse the gifts of the spirit that Paul speaks of with other things that the Bible speaks and then you make those the SPIRITUAL GIFTS. God healed people,God gave wisdom and knowledge to the OLD TESTAMENT BELIEVERS. Yet not one of you would ever say the Old Testament believers were given the spiritual gifts.
And again why is it that the very people who claim they have the spiritual gifts of speaking in tongues are often the very ones that lack DISCERNMENT? Why does that one seem to be the one that is LACKING? Who do you all think support TBN? Guys like Benny Hinn,Creflo Dollar,Perry Stone etc etc etc? Do you think it's the people who believe the gifts ceased or it the very people who claim have the gifts of the spirit and yet they can not spot many of the fakes? Why is it that the Holy Spirit is not leading them away from these things? And it wouldn't be so bad but often many of them can not even spot the more obvious ones.
B
I have read your response. Explain the (4) specific means in which Paul could speak to the believers at Corinth mentioned in 1 Cor 14:6.
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
Do any of these involve a gift or unction of the Spirit? According to your understanding, your experience and discernment, explain which means of speaking in this verse have ceased in the church and body of Christ and those means of speaking that have not ceased and remain to this day? Who are the ones that have been given to the church to speak, preach and teach according to (Eph 4:7-15).
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Have any of these, who have been given as gifts to the church mentioned in verse 11, ceased from operating in the present day church? If so, which ones and why have they ceased? Those who have not ceased and remain do so for the expressed purpose mentioned in verses 12-15 and must speak according to those means which have not ceased in 1 Cor 14:6).
6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
Do any of these involve a gift or unction of the Spirit? According to your understanding, your experience and discernment, explain which means of speaking in this verse have ceased in the church and body of Christ and those means of speaking that have not ceased and remain to this day? Who are the ones that have been given to the church to speak, preach and teach according to (Eph 4:7-15).
7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Have any of these, who have been given as gifts to the church mentioned in verse 11, ceased from operating in the present day church? If so, which ones and why have they ceased? Those who have not ceased and remain do so for the expressed purpose mentioned in verses 12-15 and must speak according to those means which have not ceased in 1 Cor 14:6).
What do I not understand that you are saying? You don't believe that speaking in tongues means speaking in tongues. You described what you think it means here:
Yet earlier, you acknowledged that tongues means languages.
Acts 2
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.
(NIV)
Yet earlier, you acknowledged that tongues means languages.
Acts 2
[SUP]6 [/SUP]When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.
(NIV)
1Co 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I am sure brother and with all due respect - I have studies this for years and decades Just as you have. The only way I can find to make all of the references in scripture form a cohesive dosctrine is the one I have presented in my articles --
http://brmicke.yolasite.com/tongues.php
I understand what you are saying and we simply disagree.
The following is copied from Robertson's New Testament word Pictures --
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak (ha kai laloumen). This onomatopoetic verb laleô (from la-la), to utter sounds. In the papyri the word calls more attention to the form of utterance while legô refers more to the substance. But laleô in the N.T. as here is used of the highest and holiest speech. Undoubtedly Paul employs the word purposely for the utterance of the revelation which he has understood. That is to say, there is revelation (verse 1Co 2:10), illumination (verse 1Co 2:12), and inspiration (verse 1Co 2:13). Paul claims therefore the help of the Holy Spirit for the reception of the revelation, for the understanding of it, for the expression of it. Paul claimed this authority for his preaching (1Th 4:2) and for his epistles (2Th 3:14). Not in words which man's wisdom teacheth (ouk en didaktois anthrôpinês sophias logois). Literally, "not in words taught by human wisdom." The verbal adjective didaktois (from didaskô, to teach) is here passive in idea and is followed by the ablative case of origin or source as in Joh 6:45, esontai pantes didaktoi theou (from Isa 54:13), "They shall all be taught by God." The ablative in Greek, as is well known, has the same form as the genitive, though quite different in idea (Robertson, Grammar, p. 516). So then Paul claims the help of the Holy Spirit in the utterance (laloumen) of the words, "which the Spirit teacheth (en didaktois pneumatos), "in words taught by the Spirit" (ablative pneumatos as above). Clearly Paul means that the help of the Holy Spirit in the utterance of the revelation extends to the words. No theory of inspiration is here stated, but it is not mere human wisdom. Paul's own Epistles bear eloquent witness to the lofty claim here made. They remain today after nearly nineteen centuries throbbing with the power of the Spirit of God, dynamic with life for the problems of today as when Paul wrote them for the needs of the believers in his time, the greatest epistles of all time, surcharged with the energy of God. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual (pneumatikois pneumatika sunkrinontes). Each of these words is in dispute. The verb sunkrinô, originally meant to combine, to join together fitly. In the LXX it means to interpret dreams (Ge 40:8,22; 41:12) possibly by comparison. In the later Greek it may mean to compare as in 2Co 10:12. In the papyri Moulton and Milligan (Vocabulary) give it only for "decide," probably after comparing. But "comparing," in spite of the translations, does not suit well here. So it is best to follow the original meaning to combine as do Lightfoot and Ellicott. But what gender is pneumatikois? Is it masculine or neuter like pneumatika? If masculine, the idea would be "interpreting (like LXX) spiritual truths to spiritual persons" or "matching spiritual truths with spiritual persons." This is a possible rendering and makes good sense in harmony with verse 1Co 2:14. If pneumatikois be taken as neuter plural (associative instrumental case after sun in sunkrinontes), the idea most naturally would be, "combining spiritual ideas (pneumatika) with spiritual words" (pneumatikois). This again makes good sense in harmony with the first part of verse 1Co 2:13. On the whole this is the most natural way to take it, though various other possibilities exist.
If unbelievers do not understand then it fits with the reason Jesus gave for speaking in parables.
Respectfully - Brian
1Co 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
I am sure brother and with all due respect - I have studies this for years and decades Just as you have. The only way I can find to make all of the references in scripture form a cohesive dosctrine is the one I have presented in my articles --
http://brmicke.yolasite.com/tongues.php
I understand what you are saying and we simply disagree.
The following is copied from Robertson's New Testament word Pictures --
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak (ha kai laloumen). This onomatopoetic verb laleô (from la-la), to utter sounds. In the papyri the word calls more attention to the form of utterance while legô refers more to the substance. But laleô in the N.T. as here is used of the highest and holiest speech. Undoubtedly Paul employs the word purposely for the utterance of the revelation which he has understood. That is to say, there is revelation (verse 1Co 2:10), illumination (verse 1Co 2:12), and inspiration (verse 1Co 2:13). Paul claims therefore the help of the Holy Spirit for the reception of the revelation, for the understanding of it, for the expression of it. Paul claimed this authority for his preaching (1Th 4:2) and for his epistles (2Th 3:14). Not in words which man's wisdom teacheth (ouk en didaktois anthrôpinês sophias logois). Literally, "not in words taught by human wisdom." The verbal adjective didaktois (from didaskô, to teach) is here passive in idea and is followed by the ablative case of origin or source as in Joh 6:45, esontai pantes didaktoi theou (from Isa 54:13), "They shall all be taught by God." The ablative in Greek, as is well known, has the same form as the genitive, though quite different in idea (Robertson, Grammar, p. 516). So then Paul claims the help of the Holy Spirit in the utterance (laloumen) of the words, "which the Spirit teacheth (en didaktois pneumatos), "in words taught by the Spirit" (ablative pneumatos as above). Clearly Paul means that the help of the Holy Spirit in the utterance of the revelation extends to the words. No theory of inspiration is here stated, but it is not mere human wisdom. Paul's own Epistles bear eloquent witness to the lofty claim here made. They remain today after nearly nineteen centuries throbbing with the power of the Spirit of God, dynamic with life for the problems of today as when Paul wrote them for the needs of the believers in his time, the greatest epistles of all time, surcharged with the energy of God. Comparing spiritual things with spiritual (pneumatikois pneumatika sunkrinontes). Each of these words is in dispute. The verb sunkrinô, originally meant to combine, to join together fitly. In the LXX it means to interpret dreams (Ge 40:8,22; 41:12) possibly by comparison. In the later Greek it may mean to compare as in 2Co 10:12. In the papyri Moulton and Milligan (Vocabulary) give it only for "decide," probably after comparing. But "comparing," in spite of the translations, does not suit well here. So it is best to follow the original meaning to combine as do Lightfoot and Ellicott. But what gender is pneumatikois? Is it masculine or neuter like pneumatika? If masculine, the idea would be "interpreting (like LXX) spiritual truths to spiritual persons" or "matching spiritual truths with spiritual persons." This is a possible rendering and makes good sense in harmony with verse 1Co 2:14. If pneumatikois be taken as neuter plural (associative instrumental case after sun in sunkrinontes), the idea most naturally would be, "combining spiritual ideas (pneumatika) with spiritual words" (pneumatikois). This again makes good sense in harmony with the first part of verse 1Co 2:13. On the whole this is the most natural way to take it, though various other possibilities exist.
If unbelievers do not understand then it fits with the reason Jesus gave for speaking in parables.
Respectfully - Brian
Paul is speaking to "the church of God at Corinth - to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord". . . . These things shall fail, shall cease and shall vanish away. . . all future. What future?
I am not confusing the "gifts". I have repeatedly said that these are manifestations . . there is only ONE gift. . . the gift of holy spirit. There are nine manifestations of that spirit . . . which people keep calling "gifts". 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal . . . The OT believers had holy Spirit to lead them and guide them only not within as we do but the holy spirit was upon certain OT believers.
Many people, even Christians, can be lead in the wrong direction. Many think that the more emotional or hyped up a service is - the more the "holy Spirit is in the place". What we are seeing today in Christian churches is the same thing that was happening in the church at Corinth. 1 Corinthians 12-14 is reproof for things not being done decently and in order. These chapters then give the correct way that these things should be done in the church and as noted not just the church of God at Corinth but to all who call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord. That's why I believe these chapters still stand as doctrine, reproof and correction concerning the manifestations of the Spirit, even for today, just as it was for needed for the church at Corinth. This has gone on so long and is a familiar way to worship for some and they see nothing wrong with it. They could be really good at discerning the right and wrong of other things but in this area they get emotionally wrapped up in what they are doing.
I really wish it was different . . . .
Last edited:
If a person speaks two languages they are able to discuss the works of God in two languages.
If a person speaks one language they can discuss the mysteries of God in one language.
If a person speaks three languages they can magnify God in three languages.
If a person speaks four languages the can speak discuss any of the 4 different forms of information mentioned in 1 Cor 14:6, in four different languages.
The mind of man is unfruitful, in other words it does not produce this fruit, the Holy Spirit bears this fruit and transfers the information to Christian people through the Holy Spirit.
If an unlearned Christian does not understand the doctrinal point being discussed then it must be interpreted, or explained, to them.
Non- Christians are not intended to understand these truths because they are Spiritually discerned. Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables to veil this information from non-believers.
If a person speaks one language they can discuss the mysteries of God in one language.
If a person speaks three languages they can magnify God in three languages.
If a person speaks four languages the can speak discuss any of the 4 different forms of information mentioned in 1 Cor 14:6, in four different languages.
The mind of man is unfruitful, in other words it does not produce this fruit, the Holy Spirit bears this fruit and transfers the information to Christian people through the Holy Spirit.
If an unlearned Christian does not understand the doctrinal point being discussed then it must be interpreted, or explained, to them.
Non- Christians are not intended to understand these truths because they are Spiritually discerned. Jesus spoke to unbelievers in parables to veil this information from non-believers.