Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

[zone]

The people believed first, before they saw the healing, and then they received.

really? could you document?

 

[zone]

Still not convinced in cessation has already happened - when the perfect comes - Jesus - it will

OT prophet what happened if you didn't listen - you died
NT prophet what happened if you didn't listen - maybe maybe not, something would happen, you didn't necessarily have to respond or believe what they said. Best example is Paul, even though the guy gave a prophecy about what would happen to him, he still went

What happened to most people Jesus/God spoke to audibly? Usually they had to hold onto that Word from God, very close to their heart because of the persecution, and hardships ahead.

For example - Mark Driscoll testifies that God audibly spoke to him a long time ago about 4 things, marry his wife, preach the bible, teach men, and plant churches. He also share how extremely difficult it was on him, his marriage, how he was clinically depressed for a good 12 years, and thought God hated him through it. Today he is married to grace, preaches the Bible, focuses on training men, and plants churches


People who casually say, I heard from God, sadly have no idea what that means. can people use the gifting of the Holy Spirit in the flesh, yes(though the Holy Spirit never led them to do it)

Prophecy isn't what is, but what will be - say you have a brother in christ and they are struggling with sin, and they can't see past it, but you can. Speak into his life what will be, by the power of the Holy Spirit in Christ

Mark Driscoll?
right. when you make a claim to having heard from God audibly....that's that, isn't it.
who is going to dare to question anything you say or do?
God spoke right to you.

as for prophecy being the ability to read people's mail - that old trick.
driscoll liked that, a lot.

 

[inge]

But I didn't address certain portions of your post because they had nothing to do with the subject matter. All that seek to defend todays gibberish as "biblical tongues" do as you did. Because you must (sad). God also spoke through a donkey to Balaam. Since God never changes, does He still do that today ? CONTEXT ... TIMEFRAME ... and most importantly ... PURPOSE.

"All that seek to defend todays gibberish as "biblical tongues" do as you did."

Where in any of my post do I defend "todays gibberish" as "biblical tongues"?
My opinion is that you often jump to conclusions with big generalizations.

All that seek? - Did you talk to all of them?
Todays gibberish? - What is exactly "todays gibberish". Do you know many persons speaking in tongues? And you are so an expert in it that you can tell clearly ALL people are talking gibberish because you know them all, and you know exactly what God's gift - tongues - is?

I wander, when someone whom never went to a museum told you that museums are gibberish and not biblical, based on youtube clips, do you believe that person?
​

"Because you must (sad)."
I did open the bible personally....not just talked some talk. I did show, from the bible the living word of God, what I believe. Tell me verses that show that "biblical tongues" (and I mean biblical) are NOT for now. When you can do that than lets talk about "must or must not".

I am not charismatic.
I am not pentecostal.
I am not in any movement than Gods movement.
I and the rest of my church do not talk tongues in church....unless someone interprets it (last time was 8 years ago).
I can tell you that the persons I know that speak in tongues are neat, descend, well learned founded sober Christians.
NOT TALKING GIBBERISH

If I would compare you to a criminal would that be nice? No. Because you aren't. You are a nice man and do not have any connection with criminals. So why compare me with your BAD internet experiences?? I would say, you have the opportunity to ask someone "why she thinks talking in tongues is ok". Whom even did read the bible personally, has "some personal knowledge" without internet articles or church bla bla. You could even just conclude: "may be your cup of tea, but it is not mine" But that is not what you do.

I do believe (from the bible) this:
The gifts are still for now.
Not everyone with the Holy Spirit does get the gift of tongues, nothing wrong with persons without speaking in tongues.
Gift should be personal first of all. No show, no church drama.
Asking for a gift is also personal and no church show either.
It is about me, God and the bible. And the church....should test my fruit and my words and deeds.

I personally did get the gift of speaking in tongues after I prayed personally to God in my bedroom. (And I had already knowledge about it from the bible because my pastor at that time (my grandfather) always said: search, test for yourself in the bible like a good Berean)

At that moment of prayer I did not ask for it. I asked God forgiveness, cried for something, and when I talked further I heard myself go on in a strange language. Unknown, new tongue

I love God

[video=youtube;9LwEBvxoH7Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LwEBvxoH7Y[/video]

 

[zone]

Gift should be personal first of all. No show, no church drama.
Asking for a gift is also personal and no church show either.

??

1 Corinthians 14:12
Prophecy and Tongues
11 If then I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be to the one who speaks a barbarian, and the one who speaks will be a barbarian to me. 12 So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church. 13 Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

 

[inge]

Gifts are first of all personal.
- About YOUR OWN relationship with God
- Your own attitude
- Your own thirst for God, His living water

It is about the Giver

Not
-My church says this is ok
-My church thinks I should prophecy
-My neighbour thinks...
- Internet or youtube says....

When your attitude is ok, God will use the fruit of your gifts.
So than you prophecy in church.

 

[notuptome]

"All that seek to defend todays gibberish as "biblical tongues" do as you did."

Where in any of my post do I defend "todays gibberish" as "biblical tongues"?
My opinion is that you often jump to conclusions with big generalizations.

All that seek? - Did you talk to all of them?
Todays gibberish? - What is exactly "todays gibberish". Do you know many persons speaking in tongues? And you are so an expert in it that you can tell clearly ALL people are talking gibberish because you know them all, and you know exactly what God's gift - tongues - is?

I wander, when someone whom never went to a museum told you that museums are gibberish and not biblical, based on youtube clips, do you believe that person?
​

"Because you must (sad)."
I did open the bible personally....not just talked some talk. I did show, from the bible the living word of God, what I believe. Tell me verses that show that "biblical tongues" (and I mean biblical) are NOT for now. When you can do that than lets talk about "must or must not".

I am not charismatic.
I am not pentecostal.
I am not in any movement than Gods movement.
I and the rest of my church do not talk tongues in church....unless someone interprets it (last time was 8 years ago).
I can tell you that the persons I know that speak in tongues are neat, descend, well learned founded sober Christians.
NOT TALKING GIBBERISH

If I would compare you to a criminal would that be nice? No. Because you aren't. You are a nice man and do not have any connection with criminals. So why compare me with your BAD internet experiences?? I would say, you have the opportunity to ask someone "why she thinks talking in tongues is ok". Whom even did read the bible personally, has "some personal knowledge" without internet articles or church bla bla. You could even just conclude: "may be your cup of tea, but it is not mine" But that is not what you do.

I do believe (from the bible) this:
The gifts are still for now.
Not everyone with the Holy Spirit does get the gift of tongues, nothing wrong with persons without speaking in tongues.
Gift should be personal first of all. No show, no church drama.
Asking for a gift is also personal and no church show either.
It is about me, God and the bible. And the church....should test my fruit and my words and deeds.

I personally did get the gift of speaking in tongues after I prayed personally to God in my bedroom. (And I had already knowledge about it from the bible because my pastor at that time (my grandfather) always said: search, test for yourself in the bible like a good Berean)

At that moment of prayer I did not ask for it. I asked God forgiveness, cried for something, and when I talked further I heard myself go on in a strange language. Unknown, new tongue

I love God

[video=youtube;9LwEBvxoH7Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LwEBvxoH7Y[/video]

I'm quite certain that you are a sincere person. You shun labels and that is fine. I do question your biblical understanding that tongues are for today. I simply disagree based on 1 Corinthians 13:8

I do know of prayer that is aided by the Holy Spirit but it is described as groanings which cannot be uttered. Perhaps this is what you experienced.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[inge]

I'm quite certain that you are a sincere person. You shun labels and that is fine. I do question your biblical understanding that tongues are for today. I simply disagree based on 1 Corinthians 13:8

I do know of prayer that is aided by the Holy Spirit but it is described as groanings which cannot be uttered. Perhaps this is what you experienced.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Thanks for your careful answer

I learned personally to never base a whole dogma or teaching based on one verse. But even so, when the tongues will cease, what about knowledge... look:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Cor 13:8
​

I do not think knowledge is gone...vanished. I think it will all cease, vanish when Jesus Christ returns and/or we enter heaven.

Lets even take the context, in Pauls time his letters had no chapters:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(Chapter14) 1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.​

I do not think Paul would first write "it all ceases after a while" and than write: "desire spiritual gifts". That does not make sense to me.

Groaning well I can understand that might be a thought. But in my case: I hear myself speak words, some words return, and than I would say these words make sentences. I do not speak "sounds" like you may see on this charismatic tv programs sometimes. It are words. I cannot learn this language myself. But sometimes I find out I speak new words that sound perfectly fine between the sentences I know. I hope this make sense to you

 

[SarahM777]

Thanks for your careful answer

I learned personally to never base a whole dogma or teaching based on one verse. But even so, when the tongues will cease, what about knowledge... look:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Cor 13:8
​

I do not think knowledge is gone...vanished. I think it will all cease, vanish when Jesus Christ returns and/or we enter heaven.

Lets even take the context, in Pauls time his letters had no chapters:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(Chapter14) 1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.​

I do not think Paul would first write "it all ceases after a while" and than write: "desire spiritual gifts". That does not make sense to me.

Groaning well I can understand that might be a thought. But in my case: I hear myself speak words, some words return, and than I would say these words make sentences. I do not speak "sounds" like you may see on this charismatic tv programs sometimes. It are words. I cannot learn this language myself. But sometimes I find out I speak new words that sound perfectly fine between the sentences I know. I hope this make sense to you

UMMM There two types of the knowledge in the Bible. 1 Corinthians speaks of the GIFT of knowledge. No one would say the old testament believers had the spiritual gifts yet they do speak of knowledge and wisdom. One is the spiritual gift of knowledge the other is LEARNED from study.

 

[zone]

But in my case: I hear myself speak words, some words return, and than I would say these words make sentences. I do not speak "sounds" like you may see on this charismatic tv programs sometimes. It are words. I cannot learn this language myself. But sometimes I find out I speak new words that sound perfectly fine between the sentences I know. I hope this make sense to you

inge....what would your explanation be for why God would empower you with a gift you do not know the purpose of, since you do not understand what you yourself are saying?

if you don't know what you are saying, how do you know it's a language?

new words come in and fit between the words you do know (but don't know what they mean), so at what point will this language actually be translated into something you and others can understand?

what's the purpose of something you don't understand?

and if you speak this language you don't understand, and others don't either - how is anyone built up?

what does it mean to be built up to you - is there a feeling you get from it that feels edifying somehow?

why would God give someone a gift of a language, that doesn't need to be a language, if the intention is a good feeling?

wouldn't He just give you a good feeling?

 

[Stephen63]

Hi Inge. A few questions to consider.

Question #1 : Were the miraculous tongues spoken at pentecost earthly languages ?

Question #2 : What language did God's messengers (angels) ever speak but the language of the people/person to whom God's message was given ?

Question #3 : If there are in fact "tongues of angels", is it a different language/dialect than God's ?

#1 Yes
#2 The peoples language. What language would you use? I wouldn't speak Spanish to people who didn't know it.
#3 Who knows? There's never a language of God mentioned. But...... understand if Paul is making a stretch statement to make a point as some say, the Holy Spirit will NOT lead him to lie. God cannot lie.

 

[Stephen63]

paul never mentions in 1 corinth that the pastoral or teaching gifts/offices would cease.

Read this when not signed in.
He never mentions that ANY gifts/offices cease

but he does tell pastor/teacher timothy how to proceed - read 2 timothy 3 - again.

Read it...... & found some innnnteresting things:
2 Timothy 3:1-9 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For men shall be lovers of their own selves (narcissistic),
covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Without natural affection,unloving

trucebreakers, irreconcilable

false accusers, malicious gossips

incontinent, without self-control,

fierce, brutal

despisers of those that are good haters of good....lots of those

Traitors, treacherous

heady, reckless

highminded, conceited

lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;

[SUP]5 [/SUP]Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power

from such turn away Avoid such men as these [SUP]
6 [/SUP]For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

invest some time in this.
your arguments are ludicrous.

We can not only see who's ludicrous, we also see who's guilty

 

[notuptome]

Thanks for your careful answer

I learned personally to never base a whole dogma or teaching based on one verse. But even so, when the tongues will cease, what about knowledge... look:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 1 Cor 13:8
​

I do not think knowledge is gone...vanished. I think it will all cease, vanish when Jesus Christ returns and/or we enter heaven.

Lets even take the context, in Pauls time his letters had no chapters:

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.

9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
(Chapter14) 1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. 2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. 4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.​

I do not think Paul would first write "it all ceases after a while" and than write: "desire spiritual gifts". That does not make sense to me.

Groaning well I can understand that might be a thought. But in my case: I hear myself speak words, some words return, and than I would say these words make sentences. I do not speak "sounds" like you may see on this charismatic tv programs sometimes. It are words. I cannot learn this language myself. But sometimes I find out I speak new words that sound perfectly fine between the sentences I know. I hope this make sense to you

Fair enough but lets consider what is meant by knowledge. Certainly at no point in time do we expect to know nothing. So what is scripture speaking to when it says knowledge shall cease? Extraordinary knowledge that is given by the Lord to those who have not been taught. A knowledge of the scriptures and workings of God that a natural man would not possess. So the question we ask is "when a person receives the Lord and is saved do they or do they not receive a comprehensive knowledge of the scriptures without years of study"? Did the apostles receive from the Lord a knowledge like the Lord demonstrated when He went up to the temple as a boy and reasoned with the teachers in the temple? If that is the knowledge spoken of in the passage then it is reasonable to conclude that it likely ended.

There are many gifts given to folks to serve the Lord. Only three are specifically cited as ending. The controversy is that men want the gifts that ended and not so much the ones that continue. Such is the nature of man.

My position on the "perfect" is the completed new testament. Gods word is perfect converting the soul. It's the only thing that I can see Paul looking forward to that he would describe as perfect. The Lords return will render an end to the need for gifts since the Lord Himself will be present.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Stephen63]

HMMM Just found out something in my studies and it's something that those who believe the gifts continued leave out. Luke records in Acts something about each and every time someone started speaking in tongues. The first Peter an apostle is a witness to the tongues,second time Peter an apostle witnesses the gentiles speaking in tongues,third and last time Paul an apostle is the witness to the tongues. (So why is that never mentioned?)

Why is THIS never mentioned by the cessationists?
Acts 9:10-17 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth, [SUP]12 [/SUP]And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. [SUP]13 [/SUP]Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem: [SUP]14 [/SUP]And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name. [SUP]15 [/SUP]But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: [SUP]16 [/SUP]For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. [SUP]17 [/SUP]And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

What apostle was in charge there?

Luke wrote that, too.

 

[inge]

inge....what would your explanation be for why God would empower you with a gift you do not know the purpose of, since you do not understand what you yourself are saying?

if you don't know what you are saying, how do you know it's a language?

new words come in and fit between the words you do know (but don't know what they mean), so at what point will this language actually be translated into something you and others can understand?

what's the purpose of something you don't understand?

and if you speak this language you don't understand, and others don't either - how is anyone built up?

what does it mean to be built up to you - is there a feeling you get from it that feels edifying somehow?

why would God give someone a gift of a language, that doesn't need to be a language, if the intention is a good feeling?

wouldn't He just give you a good feeling?

"what would your explanation be for why God would empower you with a gift you do not know the purpose of, since you do not understand what you yourself are saying?"

purpose: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself 1 Cor 14:4

empower according to the dictionary=

to give power or authority to; authorize, especially by legal or official means: I empowered my agent to make the deal for me. The local ordinance empowers the board of health to close unsanitary restaurants.
​

God instructs, builds, you I would say. See under in the picture why.

"what's the purpose of something you don't understand?"
I think you know now that it is something I understand by the word of God. But not what is said.
I simply also have faith in God, although I do not totally understand everything.

"what does it mean to be built up to you - is there a feeling you get from it that feels edifying somehow?"
To me (because I learned from talking about it with others that this experiences are personal) speaking in tongues is not specific emotional like feeling walking on air or lifted up.

I am a sober, analytic, down to earth and emotional person. I wrestled with a mild depression and tongues are not "a trick to have suddenly a smile and happy nature".

I learned that it is the same as reading the bible. Reading the same parts over and over does not make sense when you think that studying once is enough. But I believe the words in the Bible have a power (by Gods Spirit) that makes every time a new learning/building/instruct experience. Do I always sense that immediately? No. Sometimes I have read something for the 15 time and than after 3 weeks I see something else and than the verses comes back in my mind in a new way or a stronger way. (If this make sense) The same it is with tongues. I do not see big results after I have talked in the Spirit. It is the same with prayer by the way. I feel more peace but still wrestling with emotions. After a long time I can say it has effect.

It is as if my spiritual areal is healthier. If this make sense. I understand better where my, emotions, or actions are wrong in smaller details. Like I understand better how I secretly like admiration of my abilities although it might look like I just talk from the bible So it is fine-tuning the words of God I would say. And well, it makes me stronger inside because I learn to fight the battle between good and evil. I fight against my flesh.

"why would God give someone a gift of a language, that doesn't need to be a language, if the intention is a good feeling?"
It happens sometimes even that I feel even sadness when I pray in the Spirit. So it is not about "good feelings"
I do not think it is Gods intention to give good feelings with the gifts. I do not find that in the bible neither.
All apostles suffered. And so did the prophets in the old testament. Gifts come with pain, I would say.
When God speaks (weather it is by prophecy or out of His word) it can offend people.

"wouldn't He just give you a good feeling?"
I do not feel "good, happy and on the clouds" while speaking in tongues as I said. But I feel while praying, weather it is tongues or normal words, peace deep inside. Even in the midst of turmoil.

As I said before I have wrestled with a mild depression. And I am an emotional person. I can tell you God gives sometimes feelings but that is not specific connected with tongues. It is although connected with the Spirit.

And the disciples were filled with joy, and with the Holy Ghost. Acts 13:52
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.Rom 14:17
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,Gal 5:22​

I have had both feelings of warning when something was spiritual wrong. And I have felt peace, joy when I did meet fellow believers and we rejoiced and had community. And also I experienced deep good happy joyful feelings in some talking with God.

I hope this explains it a bit

 

[Stephen63]

Are you serious? Because I personally think you ask these questions not to ponder, wander and think honestly about the answers. To ask questions that you think you won't/ cannot get a clear answer on is a tactic often used in certain debates. But because I hope and pray you really consider it, I answer.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. Gen 1:2
Did God speak?
What language? We do not know that because God does not mention that.

I do not ad, nor take from the bible.
​

I do not ad Spirit gifts, nor take.
​

I do not ad languages, nor take.
​

God spoke before He created the first human language with Adam and Eve
And before He created the human languages -tower of Babel

When you can tell me what God's language is in Genesis 1 before He created Adam and Eve, I can tell you if the angels speak exactly the same. (Nice tactic isn't it?)

God did create tongues, human and angel tongues. And satan can only copy stuff like acting as an angel of light.

I know what can be said. That in the old testament He speaks with human in a human language. He speaks to human in a language they know. Or they hear it as language they know. Was that the same language with Abraham as it was in the period of Jesus? Or a dialect of it?

And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Math 3:17
​

But even a better example that God has (is able to speak) a mysterious language (no matter if He uses it or not) is this:

In the same hour came forth fingers of a man's hand, and wrote over against the candlestick upon the plaister of the wall of the king's palace: and the king saw the part of the hand that wrote. Then the king's countenance was changed, and his thoughts troubled him, so that the joints of his loins were loosed, and his knees smote one against another. The king cried aloud to bring in the astrologers, the Chaldeans, and the soothsayers. And the king spake, and said to the wise men of Babylon, Whosoever shall read this writing, and shew me the interpretation thereof, shall be clothed with scarlet, and have a chain of gold about his neck, and shall be the third ruler in the kingdom Then came in all the king's wise men: but they could not read the writing, nor make known to the king the interpretation thereof. Then was king Belshazzar greatly troubled, and his countenance was changed in him, and his lords were astonied. Now the queen, by reason of the words of the king and his lords, came into the banquet house: and the queen spake and said, O king, live for ever: let not thy thoughts trouble thee, nor let thy countenance be changed: There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom is the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, I say, thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, and soothsayers. Forasmuch as an excellent spirit, and knowledge, and understanding, interpreting of dreams, and shewing of hard sentences, and dissolving of doubts, were found in the same Daniel, whom the king named Belteshazzar: now let Daniel be called, and he will shew the interpretation.
​

Then was Daniel brought in before the king......... ​

Then was the part of the hand sent from him; and this writing was written. And this is the writing that was written, MENE, MENE, TEKEL, UPHARSIN. This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it. TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting. PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.
​

So tell me was this Gods language/writing? Are you sure you know all details of God's language and what He can or cannot do and does? Does God need to prove to you that He still can do what He can do? Than ask God for gifts/ tongues privately in your bedroom, while you pray honestly and without presumptions.

This is what Jesus says in Marc 16:17 (and I believe Him)

And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues
​

What do you think did Jesus mean with NEW tongues?

Now the tongues as mentioned by Paul, Peter and the whole congregation in Acts. All descent sober people.

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:4
​

HOW can one be so sure.....that this is al about human language? As far as I know God speaks in whatever language He desires, even His own.

Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
​

See the word multitude....you think they all heard all kinds of languages through one another? Hhmmm is possible, nothing mentioned here. But they clealy hear - every man in their own languages. How many? Well at least I count 17 names of cities and nations. When all would speak in 17 languages at one time....not sure if you hear something than. What do you think?

Lets go further...

For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Acts 10:16
​

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied. Act 19:6
​

No language mentioned here...tongues seems to be a new "label" to explain the phenomenon that Jesus already mentions in Mark 16:17 Why? When it would be a language they could mention: they spoke Persian, or Egyptian....nothing of it all...only "spake with tongues". Why?

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Cor 12:10
And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1Cor 12:28
Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 1 Cor12:30
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become [as] sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1C 13:1

I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 1 Cor 14:5,6

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: 1 Cor 14:8

Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. 1 Cor 14:22
If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 1 Kor 14:27
Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Kor 14:39
​

Can you tell me how you can derive from these (most of the) verses with "speaking with tongues" that it are only native languages? Or known languages? Human languages?
I cannot.

I see

1. Speak with tongues. "Tongues" mentioned in Strongs = the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired).
2. New tongue and unknown tongue What should that have been you think? A unknown human language...or unknown angel language?
3. Interpreter as gift next to tongues You think they use interpreter just as translator? Why on earth would God give the translating as gift when they can just learn the language? Why would God do that? And how do you think they translate new and unknown tongues than?
4. Tongues as gift of the Spirit. Think about it...why is this language so special? Because it is the Spirit in a human speaking. That is why with interpretor it is prophecy..... You think that would be also when it is always a human language and someone just translates that?
5. Paul wishes all should speak in tongues. When it would be a human language Persian, or Egyptian you think he would make this statement? "I wish all could speak a native human language"

The bible tells me that this tongues is something that can be given by God when someone is filled with the Holy Spirit. And not all Spirit filled christians do have this gift. And the bible does not tell me if the name of this language is specific "angelic", "mysterical", "humanly", or just "konabilibali" . It is simply named "speaking with tongues". No more, no less.

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.John 7:38,39
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NICE JOB! I never thought about the writing on the wall! Good looking out!

 

[inge]

NICE JOB! I never thought about the writing on the wall! Good looking out!

For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding. Prov 2:6
For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. Luc 21:15

God works in mysterious ways

 

[Stephen63]

You apparently have no idea of what was going on in the Corinthian church. Even so it is not what is going on today in the Pentecostal church. 1 Corinthians requires that the tongues be languages. Interesting that the visual appearance of the Holy Spirit as fire upon the heads of the disciples is lost in the confusion of todays interpretation of what went on that day.

Apparently you guys cannot make up your minds whether modern day Pentecostals are exactly like the Corinthian church or know nothing about the Corinthian church. Make up my mind.

If only the Pentecostals had a passion for souls like their passion for tongues that ended centuries ago. They lack faith to believe that God builds His church through souls that have been born again in Christ. God builds His church not men. God has chosen the foolishness of preaching not drama or other means that seem right to men.

If only cessationists had a passion for souls like their passion for destroying what Jesus has built. Instead, they teach the traditions of men which causes them to work harder to stay out of work....... God's work, that is.

No gifts = no responsibility, at least spiritual responsibility

No gifts = no fruit, or very little of it.

No gifts = no judgment for being responsible, at least that's what some think.
Hebrews 2:3-4 (KJV)How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; [SUP]4 [/SUP]God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I'm beginning to wonder.......

 

[Stephen63]

Now you are down to attempting to marginalize me. I'm beginning to detect the possibility that you value tongues above salvation. Tongues are no substitute for true born again salvation. Nor can one depend upon the so called evidence of tongues as an indicator of salvation.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

How did you do that......... through discernment? Oh, wait, that's a gift....... You don't believe in that, sooooo........... how exactly did you do that again? What' it called.....0h yeah, judging.

 

[Stephen63]

HMM Wonder why Jesus used this imagery? Those are His are called sheep,false prophets wolves in sheep's clothing. If they are all sheep no problem. But if one is a wolf then a big problem. It's not a pretty picture. See the thing is do we see it as if one is a sheep and the other is a wolf as they are TRYING TO EAT ME.

I see it every time the Gifts & the rapture threads are posted. It seems its YOUR group that's trying to gobble up everybody.

 

[ForthAngel]

Read this when not signed in.
He never mentions that ANY gifts/offices cease

Read it...... & found some innnnteresting things:
2 Timothy 3:1-9 (KJV) [SUP]1 [/SUP]This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For men shall be lovers of their own selves (narcissistic),
covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,

Aren't you guys the one's boasting of gifts you supposedly have? We boast in Christ that we don't need signs. Aren't you proud to go around making the claim God has given you some type of gift you don't have? Don't you feel high and mighty about it? Wouldn't claiming to have a gift of the Holy Spirit which you don't have be unholy? Wouldn't lying and claiming you have a gift that you don't have to "edify yourself" be loving yourself since it does absolutely nothing for others? Wouldn't attributing something to the Holy Spirit that the Holy Spirit hasn't caused be one of the worst kinds of blasphemy?

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Without natural affection,unloving
Telling the truth out of defense of the true Faith is loving
trucebreakers, irreconcilable
We aren't breaking any truces?
false accusers, malicious gossips
We aren't falsely accusing or talking behind anyone's back
incontinent, without self-control,
We are content without signs, you aren't. We have self-control, you lose all control when speaking "tongues", being slayed in the spirit, fall down shaking, etc.
fierce, brutal
You are the one that is getting so upset and defensive
despisers of those that are good haters of good....lots of those
What is good about false signs and wonders?
Traitors, treacherous
Treacherous is spreading false doctrines
heady, reckless
Reckless is claiming to have a gift of the Spirit that one doesn't have and teaching others to do so
highminded, conceited
Again, don't you feel high and mighty about your so called gifts? Aren't you filled with a self-serving pride and "special" in some way?
lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Aren't you filled with some sort of carnal pleasure when you spew this stuff from your mouth? Don't you feel some sort of carnal pleasure when you are admired by people for being such a "special" person that you were chosen to have some so called gift?
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power

from such turn away Avoid such men as these The power of godliness is not incoherent babbling or false signs. That would be "holding to a form of godliness" that one does not have. The power of Godliness is in true repentance, understanding of the word, and salvation in Christ, not false signs and wonders. I would avoid those as well.[SUP]

6 [/SUP]For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth. [SUP]8 [/SUP]Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith. [SUP]9 [/SUP]But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

All of this is addressed above.

We can not only see who's ludicrous, we also see who's guilty
Agreed.

[video=youtube;cQ4114XO-Xo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ4114XO-Xo[/video]