Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible
- Thread starter presidente
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
But the same argument can be made about those who believe they continued,often what gets left out is God gave OLD TESTAMENT Believers wisdom,knowledge,healing through prayer and study. Yet no one would say those were the spiritual gifts. No one would say Hanna was given the spiritual gift of healing,no one would say the David was given the spiritual gift of wisdom yet David talks about and knowledge and wisdom. Would you say they had the spiritual gifts or is there a difference in what Paul is saying between what is being in the Old Testament and what he is talking in 1 Corinthians?
My mentoring pastor was yiye avila blessed be his memory he shared with me his methods and presented it with evidence i personaly tried it i did prove it most effective the holy spirit presence is overwelming on others nature obeys i cast out many devils healings prophecying if you dont believe i dont knoe how its going to help
You know the way to win an argument is prove it, when you already know in self. Why would you need to prove what you know?
one says there is a God. another says prove it? They are looking for tangible proof. How can one prove the air. We know it is true and without it we physically die.
What is seen is temporal and what is not seek is forever. God is forever and loves us all, whether we speak in a tongue or not,
Whether we Prophesy or not.
Love you all, just give our lives to the living God known as Father to Christ our redeemer in the Spirit of God through the resurrected Christ.
Thanks
one says there is a God. another says prove it? They are looking for tangible proof. How can one prove the air. We know it is true and without it we physically die.
What is seen is temporal and what is not seek is forever. God is forever and loves us all, whether we speak in a tongue or not,
Whether we Prophesy or not.
Love you all, just give our lives to the living God known as Father to Christ our redeemer in the Spirit of God through the resurrected Christ.
Thanks
And I thin k the following is for us all today that believe God:
[h=3]Matthew 10:16-20[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[h=3]Persecutions Are Coming[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; [SUP]20 [/SUP]for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
[h=3]Matthew 10:16-20[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[h=3]Persecutions Are Coming[/h][SUP]16 [/SUP]“Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. [SUP]18 [/SUP]You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; [SUP]20 [/SUP]for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
It all goes back to "when that which is perfect has come".
Some say it is the scripture, funny how that perfect thing produced 2200 denominations.
I would figure if we are seeing face to face we would all be in one accord.
But yet, the 2200 denominations see through a glass darkly even now.
"When I was a child I spoke as a child", - same ones in the age of the gifts - speaking as children they say!
"But when I am grown I put away childish things", - they say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are the 'childish things'.
Then it should be clear, as to when the gifts ceased.
They cannot find it because it is not in the Holy Canon which they say they revere so much.
Watch what verse they try to encumber to reinforce their doctrine.
- (No......just watch......it's funny)
- - O.K. come on with it cessationists. (This is a hoot)
Some say it is the scripture, funny how that perfect thing produced 2200 denominations.
I would figure if we are seeing face to face we would all be in one accord.
But yet, the 2200 denominations see through a glass darkly even now.
"When I was a child I spoke as a child", - same ones in the age of the gifts - speaking as children they say!
"But when I am grown I put away childish things", - they say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are the 'childish things'.
Then it should be clear, as to when the gifts ceased.
They cannot find it because it is not in the Holy Canon which they say they revere so much.
Watch what verse they try to encumber to reinforce their doctrine.
- (No......just watch......it's funny)
- - O.K. come on with it cessationists. (This is a hoot)
[h=3]Ephesians 3:16-18[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]16 [/SUP]that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; [SUP]17 [/SUP]that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, [SUP]18 [/SUP]may be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
The fulfillment of all commands God's love that goes on forever.
Thanks Rick this came to me through your post
Still being carnal, is that not going on here, being carnal minded. Fights starting, so far under control, some baiting going on as in the Show everybody loves Raymond,
Oh boy is that Marie good as in acting dumb, twisting things and causing others to fight or flight, and usually the others flight, cause when they ever state to say how they feel as in Ray's wife it gets twisted as if she is wrong. Or Amy, even Ray shuts his mouth. All in comedy though yes. But think how real to life is this. Instead of just accepting each other and loving each other as we are all called to do, we would rather have control of the reins, and lead. I think this is flesh actions, don't you
And is God pleased with this?
Oh boy is that Marie good as in acting dumb, twisting things and causing others to fight or flight, and usually the others flight, cause when they ever state to say how they feel as in Ray's wife it gets twisted as if she is wrong. Or Amy, even Ray shuts his mouth. All in comedy though yes. But think how real to life is this. Instead of just accepting each other and loving each other as we are all called to do, we would rather have control of the reins, and lead. I think this is flesh actions, don't you
And is God pleased with this?
Thanks, seen and know, it is all God and none of me. Am available for God to use me as I use a water glass.
The water glass is always available in my cupboard for me to use at my desire. The glass is my vessel and is what it was created for.
And this is what I was created for to be God's water glass to use me whenever God desires to.
So by this one walks the same as Christ walked, in complete dependency on God as Chrsit gave us all the same example here on earth in Love of Father. Sent us the same Holy Ghost that led him. That came upon the disciples at Pentecost
Thanks for all your posts they have been edifying
The water glass is always available in my cupboard for me to use at my desire. The glass is my vessel and is what it was created for.
And this is what I was created for to be God's water glass to use me whenever God desires to.
So by this one walks the same as Christ walked, in complete dependency on God as Chrsit gave us all the same example here on earth in Love of Father. Sent us the same Holy Ghost that led him. That came upon the disciples at Pentecost
Thanks for all your posts they have been edifying
To me was seeing the new life God has given in God's Spirit through me agreeing to be dead to self which is the form of fasting to be as dead to self. Without food flesh dies.
So as by the cross at the death, I have asked to conformed to Christ's death. Co-crucified so that I might see the resurrection.
[h=3]Philippians 3:10-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead
So as by the cross at the death, I have asked to conformed to Christ's death. Co-crucified so that I might see the resurrection.
[h=3]Philippians 3:10-11[/h]Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
[SUP]10 [/SUP]that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; [SUP]11 [/SUP]if by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead
It all goes back to "when that which is perfect has come".
Some say it is the scripture, funny how that perfect thing produced 2200 denominations.
I would figure if we are seeing face to face we would all be in one accord.
But yet, the 2200 denominations see through a glass darkly even now.
"When I was a child I spoke as a child", - same ones in the age of the gifts - speaking as children they say!
"But when I am grown I put away childish things", - they say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are the 'childish things'.
Then it should be clear, as to when the gifts ceased.
They cannot find it because it is not in the Holy Canon which they say they revere so much.
Watch what verse they try to encumber to reinforce their doctrine.
- (No......just watch......it's funny)
- - O.K. come on with it cessationists. (This is a hoot)
Some say it is the scripture, funny how that perfect thing produced 2200 denominations.
I would figure if we are seeing face to face we would all be in one accord.
But yet, the 2200 denominations see through a glass darkly even now.
"When I was a child I spoke as a child", - same ones in the age of the gifts - speaking as children they say!
"But when I am grown I put away childish things", - they say the gifts of the Holy Spirit are the 'childish things'.
Then it should be clear, as to when the gifts ceased.
They cannot find it because it is not in the Holy Canon which they say they revere so much.
Watch what verse they try to encumber to reinforce their doctrine.
- (No......just watch......it's funny)
- - O.K. come on with it cessationists. (This is a hoot)
What About 1 Corinthians 13?
Noncessationists on prophecy and tongues feel most secure in their view biblically at 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. For them this is a "gotcha" text that by itself settles the issue. But this passage is not as unambiguous as they believe.
Primary is a comparison between the believer's present and future knowledge. Present knowledge is partial and obscured (vv. 8-9) in contrast to full, "face-to-face" knowledge that will be ours (v. 12) with the arrival of "the perfect" knowledge (v. 10), at Christ's return. With this accent on the partial quality of our present knowledge, the particular media of that knowledge are incidental. Prophecy and tongues are no doubt singled out given Paul's pastoral concern, within the wider context (chapters 12-14), with their proper exercise. But the time of their cessation is not a concern he has here. To insist on the contrary from verse 10 is gratuitous. His stress, rather, is on the duration, until Christ returns, of our present, opaque knowledge-by whatever revelatory means that knowledge may come (including, by implication, even inscripturation) and whenever they may cease.
This reading is reinforced in Ephesians 4:11-13, which says that the exalted Christ "gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, ... until we all reach unity in the faith ... and become mature [or, perfect] attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Almost certainly the "unity" or "fullness" of verse 13 is the same state of affairs as "the perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 (echoed perhaps as well in the use of "perfect" in Eph. 4:13), namely the situation brought by Christ's return. On that assumption, Ephesians 4, read as noncessationists insist 1 Corinthians 13 must be read, leaves us with the unavoidable conclusion that there will be apostles, as well as prophets (and tongues), until the Parousia, or Second Coming of Christ, a conclusion that many (though not all) noncessationists reject.
But how can they coherently? In terms of gifts related to the ultimate goal in view, how is this passage any different than 1 Corinthians 13:8ff? Those noncessationists who recognize, correctly, that there are no apostles today, in the sense of Ephesians 2:20 and 4:11, can't have it both ways. If these passages teach that prophecy/prophets and tongues continue until the Parousia, then so also do apostles. A sounder reading of both passages is to recognize that whether prophecy or tongues (or any other gift) will cease before the Parousia is not addressed by them but left an open question, to be settled from other passages.
A dilemma confronts noncessationists. If prophecy and tongues, as they function in the New Testament, continue today, then the noncessationist is faced with the quite practical and troublesome implication that Scripture alone is not a sufficient verbal revelation from God; the canon is at best relatively closed. Alternatively, if, as most noncessationists insist, "prophecy" and "tongues" today are nonrevelatory or less than fully revelatory, then these contemporary phenomena are misnamed and are something other than the New Testament gifts. Noncessationists are caught in a redemptive-historical anachronism, seeking within the superstructure of the Church's history what belonged to its foundational era. They are involved in the contradictory effort of trying to maintain along with a closed New Testament canon the presence of those revelatory gifts that were for the open canon period when the New Testament documents were in the process of being written.
Prophecy and tongues have ceased. What remains, supremely and solely sufficient and authoritative until Jesus comes, is "the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scriptures" (Westminster Confession of Faith, 1:10).
Modern Reformation - Articles
Noncessationists on prophecy and tongues feel most secure in their view biblically at 1 Corinthians 13:8-13. For them this is a "gotcha" text that by itself settles the issue. But this passage is not as unambiguous as they believe.
Primary is a comparison between the believer's present and future knowledge. Present knowledge is partial and obscured (vv. 8-9) in contrast to full, "face-to-face" knowledge that will be ours (v. 12) with the arrival of "the perfect" knowledge (v. 10), at Christ's return. With this accent on the partial quality of our present knowledge, the particular media of that knowledge are incidental. Prophecy and tongues are no doubt singled out given Paul's pastoral concern, within the wider context (chapters 12-14), with their proper exercise. But the time of their cessation is not a concern he has here. To insist on the contrary from verse 10 is gratuitous. His stress, rather, is on the duration, until Christ returns, of our present, opaque knowledge-by whatever revelatory means that knowledge may come (including, by implication, even inscripturation) and whenever they may cease.
This reading is reinforced in Ephesians 4:11-13, which says that the exalted Christ "gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, ... until we all reach unity in the faith ... and become mature [or, perfect] attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ." Almost certainly the "unity" or "fullness" of verse 13 is the same state of affairs as "the perfect" in 1 Corinthians 13:10 (echoed perhaps as well in the use of "perfect" in Eph. 4:13), namely the situation brought by Christ's return. On that assumption, Ephesians 4, read as noncessationists insist 1 Corinthians 13 must be read, leaves us with the unavoidable conclusion that there will be apostles, as well as prophets (and tongues), until the Parousia, or Second Coming of Christ, a conclusion that many (though not all) noncessationists reject.
But how can they coherently? In terms of gifts related to the ultimate goal in view, how is this passage any different than 1 Corinthians 13:8ff? Those noncessationists who recognize, correctly, that there are no apostles today, in the sense of Ephesians 2:20 and 4:11, can't have it both ways. If these passages teach that prophecy/prophets and tongues continue until the Parousia, then so also do apostles. A sounder reading of both passages is to recognize that whether prophecy or tongues (or any other gift) will cease before the Parousia is not addressed by them but left an open question, to be settled from other passages.
A dilemma confronts noncessationists. If prophecy and tongues, as they function in the New Testament, continue today, then the noncessationist is faced with the quite practical and troublesome implication that Scripture alone is not a sufficient verbal revelation from God; the canon is at best relatively closed. Alternatively, if, as most noncessationists insist, "prophecy" and "tongues" today are nonrevelatory or less than fully revelatory, then these contemporary phenomena are misnamed and are something other than the New Testament gifts. Noncessationists are caught in a redemptive-historical anachronism, seeking within the superstructure of the Church's history what belonged to its foundational era. They are involved in the contradictory effort of trying to maintain along with a closed New Testament canon the presence of those revelatory gifts that were for the open canon period when the New Testament documents were in the process of being written.
Prophecy and tongues have ceased. What remains, supremely and solely sufficient and authoritative until Jesus comes, is "the Holy Spirit speaking in the Scriptures" (Westminster Confession of Faith, 1:10).
Modern Reformation - Articles
The Bible says nothing about miracles, healing, words of wisdom, signs or wonders ceasing. So do you believe these continue?
I Corinthians 1 gives us an idea of at least how long the knowledge and utterance gifts will continue.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
I Corinthians 1 gives us an idea of at least how long the knowledge and utterance gifts will continue.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
[SUP]7 [/SUP]So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
zone wrote,
There is a very very simple solution to this dilemma. The noncessationist need only believe what the Bible teaches about the Bible and reject unbiblical concepts of sufficiency of scripture and this ceases to become an issue.
As far as 'sufficiency of scripture goes'-- there are plenty of extra-Biblical church pronouncements about this that a cessationist and a continualist would both agree with, but the cessationist reads ideas into the words that the continualist does not, interpreting the words a different way.
But these statements aren't inspired scripture. It's pretty foolish to reject the teachings of scripture based on some extra-biblical doctrine of scripture that theologians or church committees came up with.
There is a very very simple solution to this dilemma. The noncessationist need only believe what the Bible teaches about the Bible and reject unbiblical concepts of sufficiency of scripture and this ceases to become an issue.
As far as 'sufficiency of scripture goes'-- there are plenty of extra-Biblical church pronouncements about this that a cessationist and a continualist would both agree with, but the cessationist reads ideas into the words that the continualist does not, interpreting the words a different way.
But these statements aren't inspired scripture. It's pretty foolish to reject the teachings of scripture based on some extra-biblical doctrine of scripture that theologians or church committees came up with.
you're comparing apples to applesauce.
the things you're talking about are not same things Scripture recounts.
just read it.
then compare again.
this discussion has nothing to do with God changing.
it has everything to do with what He ordained He would do when He decided He would do it.
3 periods of outstanding, incredible miraculous activity:
Moses & Exodus
Elijah & Elisha
Jesus & The Apostles.
why didn't God perform the same kinds of miracles for the exodus from Babylon that He did from Egypt?
because He got tired, or because the poeple didn't have enough faith?
or because that's what HE did, or did not do - full stop.
the things you're talking about are not same things Scripture recounts.
just read it.
then compare again.
this discussion has nothing to do with God changing.
it has everything to do with what He ordained He would do when He decided He would do it.
3 periods of outstanding, incredible miraculous activity:
Moses & Exodus
Elijah & Elisha
Jesus & The Apostles.
why didn't God perform the same kinds of miracles for the exodus from Babylon that He did from Egypt?
because He got tired, or because the poeple didn't have enough faith?
or because that's what HE did, or did not do - full stop.
Last edited:
