Churches that Don't Allow Tongues and Prophecy in Meetings disobey Bible

[Cee]

Here's another question for you for those who will answer and not ignore it...

cts 10:44-48 (KJV) 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Notice it says, they were ASTONISHED... why were they astonished? Because the Holy Ghost fell upon them... let me ask you this, how did they know the Holy Ghost fell upon them?

Well the Bible says this: because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.

Don't miss this: they knew that the Holy Ghost fell upon them because why? They heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

If it was simply there native tongue and not words they didn't know, how would they know it was tongues? And wow how did they know they were magnifying God... perplexing isn't it. Unless, maybe what we're saying is true.

Speaking in tongues is an unknown tongue, except for those who God uses a miracle for them to hear their native tongue. This happens at time, but even here we see that the disciples didn't think it was a bunch of people just praising God in their own native tongues... no. There was a distinction, they knew what was going on... so did the people who thought they were drunk.

They didn't see a bunch of people praising God in normal language. No, they saw a bunch of crazy dudes freaking out, falling all over the place, praising God in an unknown tongue... sounds a lot like what people today say isn't from God. Hmm, but the disciples said it was the gift of God. And then they baptised them.

Here's another finer point, notice the disciples weren't think what is happening!! Nope, they have seen this before... they knew what was up. Acts 2 anyone.

C.

 

[ForthAngel]

I seem to see another person picking and choosing their favored scriptures instead of studying all scriptures that have context to teach on a subject.
Acts 10:44-48 (KJV) 44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. 45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, 47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Peter was in the house of one Cornelius from Ceasarea, who presumably spoke Greek and possibly Hebrew. Read the chapter in context:

10 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]About the ninth hour of the day[SUP][a][/SUP] he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]When the angel who spoke to him had departed, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who attended him, [SUP]8 [/SUP]and having related everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.

Even if Cornelius understood Peter (presumably a natural speaker of Hebrew), there were others in the house when Peter visited him:

The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. [SUP]25 [/SUP]When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.

I think it's safe to assume that not all of his relatives and friends spoke Hebrew. It's also safe to assume that not all of them shared Cornelius' faith making it again a sign for unbelievers just like Pentecost.

 

[Stephen63]

Peter was in the house of one Cornelius from Ceasarea, who presumably spoke Greek and possibly Hebrew. Read the chapter in context:

10 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion of what was known as the Italian Cohort, [SUP]2 [/SUP]a devout man who feared God with all his household, gave alms generously to the people, and prayed continually to God. [SUP]3 [/SUP]About the ninth hour of the day[SUP][a][/SUP] he saw clearly in a vision an angel of God come in and say to him, “Cornelius.” [SUP]4 [/SUP]And he stared at him in terror and said, “What is it, Lord?” And he said to him, “Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. [SUP]5 [/SUP]And now send men to Joppa and bring one Simon who is called Peter. [SUP]6 [/SUP]He is lodging with one Simon, a tanner, whose house is by the sea.” [SUP]7 [/SUP]When the angel who spoke to him had departed, he called two of his servants and a devout soldier from among those who attended him, [SUP]8 [/SUP]and having related everything to them, he sent them to Joppa.

Even if Cornelius understood Peter (presumably a natural speaker of Hebrew), there were others in the house when Peter visited him:

The next day he rose and went away with them, and some of the brothers from Joppa accompanied him. [SUP]24 [/SUP]And on the following day they entered Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his relatives and close friends. [SUP]25 [/SUP]When Peter entered, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. [SUP]26 [/SUP]But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I too am a man.

I think it's safe to assume that not all of his relatives and friends spoke Hebrew. It's also safe to assume that not all of them shared Cornelius' faith making it again a sign for unbelievers just like Pentecost.

Peter, being a fisherman & in business probably spoke Greek as well.

 

[ForthAngel]

Peter, being a fisherman & in business probably spoke Greek as well.

Probably is just an assumption based on nothing though man. Acts 2 clearly defines the miraculous gift, so a safer assumption here is that Latin, Greek, and few Hebrew speaking members were present in Cornelius' home and not everyone understood each other. It would make more sense to say Peter was speaking his native language, just like they were at Pentecost, and those who didn't understand his native language miraculously understood in their own language.

 

[notuptome]

(BLACK)Acts 2:8-11 (KJV) [SUP]8 [/SUP]And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born? [SUP]9 [/SUP]Parthians, and Medes, and Elamites, and the dwellers in Mesopotamia, and in Judaea, and Cappadocia, in Pontus, and Asia, [SUP]10 [/SUP]Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes, [SUP]11 [/SUP]Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

The wonderful works of God isn't judgement on Israel.
[HR][/HR]Acts 10:44-46 (KJV) [SUP]44 [/SUP]While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. [SUP]45 [/SUP]And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. [SUP]46 [/SUP]For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Magnifying God isn't judging Israel
[HR][/HR]1 Corinthians 14:5 (KJV) [SUP]5 [/SUP]I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

Edification isn't judgement on Israel


(BLUE)

Classic attempt to compare apples and oranges. None of the above examples apply to the present NT church. How you see tongues and how the Jews saw tongues are so different. Despite all the evidences provided by God the Jews still turned their back on Jesus. The Jews to this day are apostate and virtually uninterested in God. They are all about the land and not about the God who promised them the land.

I always wonder if the Pentacostals with whom I am conversing know if they are saved. Many cannot claim any certainty of salvation. Those who dare to claim salvation are worried that they will lose it if they fail to maintain works and demonstrate gifts like tongues.

Scriptural requirements for tongues in the church according to 1 Cor. Unsaved Jews must be present. Tongues are not for those who know the Lord but for those who are unsaved. Is this condition met in the modern Pentacostal church?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[presidente]

Classic attempt to compare apples and oranges. None of the above examples apply to the present NT church. How you see tongues and how the Jews saw tongues are so different. Despite all the evidences provided by God the Jews still turned their back on Jesus. The Jews to this day are apostate and virtually uninterested in God. They are all about the land and not about the God who promised them the land.

Blindness IN PART is happened to Israel. Some Jews care about God and believe in Yeshua. Some unbelieving Jews seek after righteousness as if it were by the works of the law. They aren't all secular.

I always wonder if the Pentacostals with whom I am conversing know if they are saved. Many cannot claim any certainty of salvation.

I have assurance of my salvation. Pentecostals tend to have Wesleyan thought in their approach to these things, though not all. And among Charismatics, some have beliefs more like Baptists, while some are more Wesleyan in the way they see things.

From what you posted earlier, it seemed to imply that you think you are saved from listening to sermons in church every week. Is that right? If you miss a week of sermons, are you not saved?

Those who dare to claim salvation are worried that they will lose it if they fail to maintain works and demonstrate gifts like tongues.

This is another time where you don't seem to know what you are talking about. Maybe, just maybe, some of the Oneness folks think that way, but I've never heard of a Oneness who once he spoke in tongues, thought if he couldn't again, though he lost his salvation. I have no evidence to support that idea. It's just a guess that someone out there in the Oneness camp might think that way. But I don't hang around Oneness folks. That's a small percent of Pentecostalism. I've never met someone outside of that group who thought you had to speak in tongues to be saved.

Scriptural requirements for tongues in the church according to 1 Cor. Unsaved Jews must be present.

That's unbiblical. The Bible teaches no such thing.

Tongues are not for those who know the Lord but for those who are unsaved.

That's unbiblical. All the spiritual gifts are FOR believers. Tongues are a SIGN FOR UNBELIEVERS, but they are for believers, too. They aren't a sign for believers, but they are for believers for edification. If speaking in tongues is accompanied by interpretation, it edifies the church. Notice it says the church, not the world.

 

[presidente]

Probably is just an assumption based on nothing though man. Acts 2 clearly defines the miraculous gift, so a safer assumption here is that Latin, Greek, and few Hebrew speaking members were present in Cornelius' home and not everyone understood each other. It would make more sense to say Peter was speaking his native language, just like they were at Pentecost, and those who didn't understand his native language miraculously understood in their own language.

If it says they spoke in other languages, why would you assume all that?

 

[ForthAngel]

If it says they spoke in other languages, why would you assume all that?

Because our first example of miraculous tongues from acts states that the disciples were speaking their native language and all heard them in their own native languages. That is our basis for tongues for the rest of the time they are mentioned. If there were two types of tongues, one coherent and one incoherent, the bible would have made it clear. It doesn't seem to make a separation between any types of tongues.

In this example here, the man Peter was gone to see was a Roman Centurion. If he was a Roman Centurion, it's safe to say that his native language was Latin or Greek. It said he invited relatives and close friends. It's safely presumable that his close family most, if not all, only spoke Greek or Latin. His close friends in the area could have been a mix of Romans and Jews, some speaking Hebrew and others not. So we see another crowd of people speaking different languages, just like in Acts 2.

Acts 2 is clearly talking about miraculously speaking or understanding other languages. Since Acts 2 is our only definite source for how the miracle of tongues works, it's safe to assume that every time tongues are spoken, it's the same thing. Taking Acts 2 as an example and also seeing that there is a mix of languages in this instance, it further proves that something miraculous happens when tongues are spoken, not incoherent babbling that no one understands.

I got a question for you. Do you know when someone is faking tongues? Is there any way to know at all?

 

[presidente]

Because our first example of miraculous tongues from acts states that the disciples were speaking their native language and all heard them in their own native languages. That is our basis for tongues for the rest of the time they are mentioned. If there were two types of tongues, one coherent and one incoherent, the bible would have made it clear. It doesn't seem to make a separation between any types of tongues.

I find your reasoning to be rather fuzzy and contradictory to other scripture. In I Corinthians 14, no one understands the tongues. These are genuine gifts of the Spirit, and interpretation is required. We don't have any evidence that God set it up where people present understood the tongue except for Acts 2.

In this example here, the man Peter was gone to see was a Roman Centurion. If he was a Roman Centurion, it's safe to say that his native language was Latin or Greek.

I don't think being a Roman soldier or centurion was evidence of fluency in Latin at that time since the eastern part of the empire spoke Greek. Now the fact that he was a member of the Italian band would seem to be some pretty good evidence.

It said he invited relatives and close friends. It's safely presumable that his close family most, if not all, only spoke Greek or Latin. His close friends in the area could have been a mix of Romans and Jews, some speaking Hebrew and others not. So we see another crowd of people speaking different languages, just like in Acts 2.

You've got a possible scenario, but still no evidence that they spoke in languages people did not understand. Probably everyone knew some Greek there and that was the lingua franca. If the Gentiles spoke in 'tongues'-- plural, how many languages could they speak that they did not know naturally?

Acts 2 is clearly talking about miraculously speaking or understanding other languages. Since Acts 2 is our only definite source for how the miracle of tongues works, it's safe to assume that every time tongues are spoken, it's the same thing.

I Corinthians 14 is inspired scripture, too. Why can't that be 'definitive'? Why wouldn't things work the I Corinthians 14 way at times? The idea that people have to be present to understand whenever tongues occur is what you are assuming. The text says they spoke in languages. It doesn't say whether people present understood. Now in chapter 2, it tells us they spoke in tongues and that people present understood in their own languages.

If you speak in a foreign language, does that mean someone present understands? Let's say you learn German naturally. Does the fact that you speak German in the mall guarantee that someone present will understand? Why would that idea be inherent in the word glossalalia? It doesn't make sense. You are making assumptions.

Taking Acts 2 as an example and also seeing that there is a mix of languages in this instance, it further proves that something miraculous happens when tongues are spoken, not incoherent babbling that no one understands.

A foreign language sounds like babbling if you do not know the language. Foreigners sound like Barbarians ("bar bar bar bar").

I got a question for you. Do you know when someone is faking tongues? Is there any way to know at all?

I can't tell every time. I can use my Linguistics training and my experience traveling and hearing languages, and some tongues do sound like real languages. I have actually heard a tongue overseas, and I thought someone was just praying in one of the regional languages that I did not know, but it turned out the person was praying in tongues, and I didn't know until it was interpreted.

People have different gifts, and there may be someone with the gift of discernment who can tell. On several occasions, even at the Azusa Street and since, there have been times I've read about where someone present actually knew the language in tongues. There was a whole book of similar incidents published around 1971 that was available online several years ago.

 

[Stephen63]

Classic attempt to compare apples and oranges. None of the above examples apply to the present NT church. How you see tongues and how the Jews saw tongues are so different. Despite all the evidences provided by God the Jews still turned their back on Jesus. The Jews to this day are apostate and virtually uninterested in God. They are all about the land and not about the God who promised them the land.

I always wonder if the Pentacostals with whom I am conversing know if they are saved. Many cannot claim any certainty of salvation. Those who dare to claim salvation are worried that they will lose it if they fail to maintain works and demonstrate gifts like tongues.

Scriptural requirements for tongues in the church according to 1 Cor. Unsaved Jews must be present. Tongues are not for those who know the Lord but for those who are unsaved. Is this condition met in the modern Pentacostal church?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

I have never doubted my salvation. I won't let the likes of Jew haters & Pentecostal haters dissuade me from the prize.

As far as works are concerned:
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​ .......so take that up with Him.

Jews must be present? What web site did you copy that off of? Scripture please...... this oughta be good!

 

[Stephen63]

As for all of these statements about Pentecostals, of which I am one, who do you think is truly going to listen to all this heretical nonsense/garbage about us? If I am not saved, How can I go toe-to-toe with any hater on here & use on average of twice as much scripture to back my beliefs than my opponents? If I'm doing that unsaved, what does that say about my opponents' commitment & salvation?

NOT MUCH!
​

Congratulations...... you guys that judged us just judged yourselves!

 

[Kerry]

As for all of these statements about Pentecostals, of which I am one, who do you think is truly going to listen to all this heretical nonsense/garbage about us? If I am not saved, How can I go toe-to-toe with any hater on here & use on average of twice as much scripture to back my beliefs than my opponents? If I'm doing that unsaved, what does that say about my opponents' commitment & salvation?

NOT MUCH!
​

Congratulations...... you guys that judged us just judged yourselves!

I have often wondered why there is so much hostility against tongues. I mean its in the bible and included as one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I think it scares people, because it shows the reality of God and it something they can't control. It goes against flesh. I mean we are told not to deny the Holy Spirit, but isn't the Holy Spirit that gives the utterance?

 

[ForthAngel]

I Corinthians 14 is inspired scripture, too. Why can't that be 'definitive'? Why wouldn't things work the I Corinthians 14 way at times? The idea that people have to be present to understand whenever tongues occur is what you are assuming. The text says they spoke in languages. It doesn't say whether people present understood. Now in chapter 2, it tells us they spoke in tongues and that people present understood in their own languages.

It is definite.

Big difference in what was happening in Corinth and what the Apostles were doing. The church at Corinth are being told to keep their nonsense to themselves because it serves no purpose.

1 Pursue love, and earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that you may prophesy. [SUP]2 [/SUP]For one who speaks in a tongue speaks not to men but to God; for no one understands him, but he utters mysteries in the spirit. [SUP]3 [/SUP]On the other hand, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding and encouragement and consolation.

The chapter is starts off by telling them to seek love and that their type of tongues does not show love. He calls it speaking in mysteries.

mys·ter·y[SUP]1[/SUP]
ˈmist(ə)rē/
noun
noun: mystery; plural noun: mysteries
1.
something that is difficult or impossible to understand or explain.
"the mysteries of outer space"
[TABLE="class: vk_tbl vk_gy"]
[TR]
[TD="class: lr_dct_nyms_ttl"]synonyms:[/TD]
[TD]puzzle, enigma, conundrum, riddle, secret, problem, unsolved problem More[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]


He goes on to say that prophesying is more important because the church benefits.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]He who speaks in a tongue edifies himself, but he who prophesies edifies the church. [SUP]5 [/SUP]I wish you all spoke with tongues, but even more that you prophesied; for[SUP][a][/SUP] he who prophesies is greater than he who speaks with tongues, unless indeed he interprets, that the church may receive edification.

He just got through saying that the tongues they were speaking here could not be understood so by telling them to interpret, it's not possible that they do so. He's telling them to keep quiet unless they know what they are saying because it serves no purpose. He said he who speaks with tongues edifies himself. He is obviously taking the focus off of tongues for the church at Corinth.

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]Now, brothers,[SUP][a][/SUP] if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I benefit you unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or teaching?

It's again being stressed that if no one can understand you, you are serving no purpose.

[SUP]7 [/SUP]If even lifeless instruments, such as the flute or the harp, do not give distinct notes, how will anyone know what is played? [SUP]8 [/SUP]And if the bugle gives an indistinct sound, who will get ready for battle? [SUP]9 [/SUP]So with yourselves, if with your tongue you utter speech that is not intelligible, how will anyone know what is said? For you will be speaking into the air. [SUP]10 [/SUP]There are doubtless many different languages in the world, and none is without meaning, [SUP]11 [/SUP]but if I do not know the meaning of the language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.


Again, the point is made that what they are doing at Corinth is not what they need to be doing, because it serves no purpose. It does nothing for the church. They are being told to keep quiet with their nonsense.

[SUP]13 [/SUP]Therefore, one who speaks in a tongue should pray that he may interpret. [SUP]14 [/SUP]For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays but my mind is unfruitful. [SUP]15 [/SUP]What am I to do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will pray with my mind also; I will sing praise with my spirit, but I will sing with my mind also. [SUP]16 [/SUP]Otherwise, if you give thanks with your spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider[SUP][b][/SUP] say “Amen” to your thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying? [SUP]17 [/SUP]For you may be giving thanks well enough, but the other person is not being built up. [SUP]18 [/SUP]I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you. [SUP]19 [/SUP]Nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my mind in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a tongue.

And yet again, this is very self-explanatory. It's being stressed how what the church at Corinth is doing serves absolutely no purpose. They are being told to keep quiet. They were probably doing the same nonsense that we see today which also serves absolutely no purpose.


[SUP]20[/SUP]Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature. [SUP]21 [/SUP]In the Law it is written, “By people of strange tongues and by the lips of foreigners will I speak to this people, and even then they will not listen to me, says the Lord.” [SUP]22 [/SUP]Thus tongues are a sign not for believers but for unbelievers, while prophecy is a sign[SUP][c][/SUP] not for unbelievers but for believers. [SUP]23 [/SUP]If, therefore, the whole church comes together and all speak in tongues, and outsiders or unbelievers enter, will they not say that you are out of your minds? [SUP]24 [/SUP]But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, [SUP]25 [/SUP]the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

This is getting repetitive now. The church at Corinth is being told NOT to speak in tongues. It's not the same tongues that Peter was speaking in Acts because when he spoke them everyone understood. When the church is Corinth speaks them, no one understands.

 

[ForthAngel]

I Corinthians 14 is inspired scripture, too. Why can't that be 'definitive'? Why wouldn't things work the I Corinthians 14 way at times? The idea that people have to be present to understand whenever tongues occur is what you are assuming. The text says they spoke in languages. It doesn't say whether people present understood. Now in chapter 2, it tells us they spoke in tongues and that people present understood in their own languages.

They were being told to keep quiet because their "tongues" led to heresies such as this one:

[video=youtube;eQQ2bFJQYEY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eQQ2bFJQYEY[/video]

 

[zone]

wait....around 3:50 he mentions an english plumber who has raised more than 10 people from the dead.
do we know who the guy is?

 

[ForthAngel]

I don't know who he's talking about Zone. He also contradicts Paul to the church at Corinth and says it's better to speak in tongues than to know what you are praying for. He said it's better to not know what was gonna happen, than to know, when Paul clearly says it's better to prophecy and to understand. He claims that everyone baptized in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues which goes against what the bible says. He's not even preaching from the bible. He's standing up there contradicting it. He doesn't understand Acts. He says there is a benefit of speaking in this form of tongues when Paul clearly states there is no benefit. He said when you pray in tongues you don't pray selfishly when Paul says it only benefits oneself.

This is what this nonsense leads to. From there it goes on to fake healing, holy laughter, slayed in the spirit, GOLD GLITTER, and people claiming to have raised someone from the dead. It's like weed is the gateway drug, tongues are the gateway blasphemy.

 

[SarahM777]

Acts 2:4 (KJV) 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


No, the problem you have is you don't even read scripture that's been posted on here several times. That & you judge people according to your personal preferences instead of scripture. Maybe it's not the rest. Maybe it's you

Perhaps the problem is the one that is at the heart of the matter that never seems to get answered. IS THIS STUFF FROM THE LORD OR NOT? If it's not it's witchcraft,divination and idolatry. How hard is that to understand? How hard is it to understand the Israel was destroyed because of it and Judah was sent into captivity? Did God kid around with that stuff or did He take it very very seriously?

And once again is this stuff truly from the Lord or not? That is the main issue which you never seem to want to deal with. You can't keep letting it slide by because one's soul is at stake here.

Is Jesus kidding around here?

Matthew 7

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Why does He make so plain that those very people CAN PROPHESY,CAST OUT DEMONS AND DO MIRACLES?

The question that NEEDS TO BE ANSWERED IS WHO IS THE SOURCE of this stuff?

 

[SarahM777]

Taking that verse a bit further. Jesus limits it to one group of people and they are those who truly believe they are saved and can do all those signs and wonders. Jesus never says they could NOT do those things. The sad part is they never understand the source of those signs and wonders,they believe they are from God but they NEVER were.

So once again what is the source of all these signs,prophecies and tongues? Is it or is it not of the Lord?

 

[notuptome]

I have never doubted my salvation. I won't let the likes of Jew haters & Pentecostal haters dissuade me from the prize.

My, my aren't we a bit testy. You should rejoice at the opportunity to testify of how Christ has saved you by His grace.

As far as works are concerned:
Ephesians 2:10 (KJV) [SUP]10 [/SUP]For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.​ .......

so take that up with Him.

So are you saying you can lose your salvation if you do not do works?

Jews must be present? What web site did you copy that off of? Scripture please...... this oughta be good!

Such an accusatory tone. 1 Cor 14:22 is where Paul makes it clear that tongues are not for believers but unbelievers.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[notuptome]

Blindness IN PART is happened to Israel. Some Jews care about God and believe in Yeshua. Some unbelieving Jews seek after righteousness as if it were by the works of the law. They aren't all secular.

At the time of the Apostles the majority of believers were Jewish. Today the majority of believers are Gentile.

I have assurance of my salvation. Pentecostals tend to have Wesleyan thought in their approach to these things, though not all. And among Charismatics, some have beliefs more like Baptists, while some are more Wesleyan in the way they see things.

Many claim to be Christian but few can give reason why. Romans 10:9-10

From what you posted earlier, it seemed to imply that you think you are saved from listening to sermons in church every week. Is that right? If you miss a week of sermons, are you not saved?

Scripture says that faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Hearing or reading seems the same. Rom 10:17

This is another time where you don't seem to know what you are talking about. Maybe, just maybe, some of the Oneness folks think that way, but I've never heard of a Oneness who once he spoke in tongues, thought if he couldn't again, though he lost his salvation. I have no evidence to support that idea. It's just a guess that someone out there in the Oneness camp might think that way. But I don't hang around Oneness folks. That's a small percent of Pentecostalism. I've never met someone outside of that group who thought you had to speak in tongues to be saved.

Point being that many Pentacostals with whom I have discussed this subject believe they can lose their salvation if they fail to maintain sufficient good works. Many Evangelicals have espoused a similar belief so they are in the same circumstance. We are saved by grace a gift of God received by faith. We are created in Christ to good works but there is no salvitic benefit to good works. They are a result of salvation not a cause of salvation.

That's unbiblical. The Bible teaches no such thing.

Tongues are a sign gift. Paul restates this in 1 Cor and Jesus rebuked the Jews for seeking a sign instead of receiving Him as their Messiah despite the miracles He demonstrated to affirm His authority.. Signs are for Jews not Gentiles. Further tongues are for unbelievers not believers. 1 Cor 14:22

That's unbiblical. All the spiritual gifts are FOR believers. Tongues are a SIGN FOR UNBELIEVERS, but they are for believers, too. They aren't a sign for believers, but they are for believers for edification. If speaking in tongues is accompanied by interpretation, it edifies the church. Notice it says the church, not the world.

Edification results from prophesying or forth telling of the word of God. There is no edification in tongues. You cannot appropriate gifts intended for Jews and give them to the Gentiles. Joel's prophecy will be fulfilled in the Jews not in the Gentiles. All men who receive Christ as Savior receive the same Spirit at the moment they are born again. This quickening is essential to be a Christian. Christians receive a filling of the Holy Spirit many times throughout their lives to enable them to serve the Lord. Spirit filled pastors and Spirit filled teachers are what we have in Eph 4:11. Every believer is to be Spirit filled to give witness to the lost about the Lord's desire to save them from their sins. The great commission in Mat 28, Acts 1.

For the cause of Christ
Roger