Is Jesus God?

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kenisyes

Guest
#61
#61
finnsbane said:
"Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

A claim made by Christ that was so profound and antithetical to every Jewish tradition and custom, that the religious leaders picked up stones to throw at Him. As Pharisees, they likely would have had entire portions, if not all, of the Torah committed to memory. There is no doubt this direct quote from Exodus 3:14 that Jesus is making about Himself would have escaped them. This was blasphemy to them, which is why they wanted Him dead. If there is any confusion as to Jesus Christ being YHWH GOD Almighty, let His words be the end of it!

To Him be the glory forever and ever! Amen-Amen!
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Yes, so I have heard. But could it not also mean, before Abraham, "I Am" created me? The argument being that The Word (who we have established was God) was asked to take human form (thus hypothetically losing Godhead, for those who do not believe Jesus is God) at the sin in the garden, which was before Abraham.

Again, I agree Jesus is God. I am presenting the other argument, since that is the OP.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#62
Jul 28, 2012
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#62
kenisyes said:
Again, the whole post great Greek-based reasoning, but I know of no parallels in Hebrew thought. Without that parallel, some can still argue that since everyone who wrote the Bible was a Hebrew, the Bible might still contain something that does not fit the Greek reasoning. Remember, the entire history of Chrisianity since 70AD is all Greek-Roman, but its foundation is all Hebrew. We have had many centuries to impose our cultural ideas on its interpretation.
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Plato and Socrates both came to the same basic conclusions about the triadic nature of the reality. Their problem was that they never knew what to make of it because their thinking was strictly dyadic. They never made the connection of the nature of reality to the nature of God.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#63
#63
phil36 said:

And I am sure if you ask a jew who is Christian to tell you about Jesus and how he is God they wil tell you.. or do you not think that there are thousand of jewish Christians who speak both English and Hebrew? (which voids your argument)
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I know there are Messianic Jews who speak English, but who believe that we need to return to Hebrew thinking about God and His Son, because Greek thinking, and thus the current gentile church, is confused on many issues.

Reading a Hebrew NT will not solve the issue, since it is not the original Hebrew text, but a modern translation (from the Greek), and hence subject to errors of bias. My Hebrew NT reads at John 1, bereshit hayah hadabar w-hadabar hayah et-haelohim w-ho w-hadabar hayah elohim. God is translated the creator God, elohim, and the word (dabar) is expressed as being creator with Him, but this is as stated in the next couple verses. At 1:14, it's hadabar labesh bashar, "the word 'clothed himself' (strongs 3847) flesh", which certainly implies he did not leave his Godhead behind, but added to it. But this does not translate egeneto correctly in the Greek, which means to be changed into something. You can see the bias. Or is it inspiration? It is certainly cause for argument.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#64
Jul 28, 2012
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#64
You have to remember that truth is not in the Hebrew nor the Greek culture. It is exclusively in the language of the biblical text. It is not necessary to understand either culture in order to understand the truth in scripture.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#65
#65
I repeat, culture defines the meanings of words, and the use of grammar, both of which are necessary to understand the Biblical text. The text of the Hebrew NT I just quoted from is the work of scholars, men, not of the inspiration of God, and so is subject to errors of cultural bias affecting their understanding.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#66
Jul 28, 2012
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#66
That would make sense if scripture were the product of those cultures but, it isn't. Scripture is a representational document that is solely the product of the mind of God. Truth is represented in the way that God uses the language, not the culture.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#67
#67
The choice of words God made is necessarily from a list generated by a culture. Even He could not use a word that men had not invented.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#68
Jul 28, 2012
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#68
Yes, but God is the one structuring the grammar. As we discussed earlier God clearly elevated the use of language in such a way as to explain thing of the non-natural world that man has no point of reference to understand. Culture cannot do this.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#69
#69
We appear to be getting closer to a comfortable middle-ground.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#71
Jul 28, 2012
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#71
kenisyes said:
We appear to be getting closer to a comfortable middle-ground.
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Since you seem to have some skill in the Greek (I am sure more than I), perhaps we could take a closer look at the John 1 text.
 
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ajiichi

Guest
#72
#72
My answer is Yes. Jesus Christ is a true God.

Biblical Evidence:
1 John 5:20 - "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.")

As a supporting verse, Jesus Christ is already existing in times when God creates human.
Genesis 1:26 - Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Proverbs 8:22-30 - The Lord possesses me in the beginning of his way.
Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#73
#73
oldhermit said:
Perhaps. What would you consider middle ground?
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I would think it would include latitude for the unavailablilty of certain words. Like Greek having only the word "theos" and Hebrew having several words for God the father, but none that answer to "God" unless it also includes "god".
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#74
#74
ajiichi said:
My answer is Yes. Jesus Christ is a true God.

Biblical Evidence:
1 John 5:20 - "And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.")

As a supporting verse, Jesus Christ is already existing in times when God creates human.
Genesis 1:26 - Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.
Proverbs 8:22-30 - The Lord possesses me in the beginning of his way.
Colossians 2:9 - For in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead bodily.
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I John seems to prove the case, but only if you assume that the word "this" applies to Jesus, and not to the God whose Son Jesus is said to be. Gen. 1:26 does not say who the "our" is; it could still be the "Son of God" and not God, if one believes those are different. Prov. 8 applies to wisdom; it still needs to shown that Jesus and wisdom are the same, if you wish to use that passage. Col. certainly proves Jesus has all the Godhead in Him at the time of writing, and adding "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever", proves He had the fulness of Godhead in Him at His birth as a man. The problem is that every son has the fulness of his father's inheritance. In my mind, Scripture proves Jesus is the SON of God, and that is very easy to establish. The issue hinges on, is the Son of God actually God? The son of a great musician might inherit all his father's talent, but choose never to pick up an instrument, so technically he is then not a musician.
 
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richie_2uk

Guest
#75
#75
JOHN 10: 30 Explains it the best. " I, and the father are one. "
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#76
Jul 28, 2012
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#76
kenisyes said:
I John seems to prove the case, but only if you assume that the word "this" applies to Jesus, and not to the God whose Son Jesus is said to be. Gen. 1:26 does not say who the "our" is; it could still be the "Son of God" and not God, if one believes those are different. Prov. 8 applies to wisdom; it still needs to shown that Jesus and wisdom are the same, if you wish to use that passage. Col. certainly proves Jesus has all the Godhead in Him at the time of writing, and adding "Jesus Christ, the same yesterday, today, and forever", proves He had the fulness of Godhead in Him at His birth as a man. The problem is that every son has the fulness of his father's inheritance. In my mind, Scripture proves Jesus is the SON of God, and that is very easy to establish. The issue hinges on, is the Son of God actually God? The son of a great musician might inherit all his father's talent, but choose never to pick up an instrument, so technically he is then not a musician.
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I think the answer to understanding what it means for Jesus to be the "Son of God" is understanding why the Holy Spirit chose the word υἱὸν rather than τέκνον to describe this relationship. Jesus is never called the τέκνον of God.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#77
#77
oldhermit said:
I think the answer to understanding what it means for Jesus to be the "Son of God" is understanding why the Holy Spirit chose the word υἱὸν rather than τέκνον to describe this relationship. Jesus is never called the τέκνον of God.
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Teknon implies Jesus is created. That reason alone implies the Holy Spirit would rule it out. Uion refers to inheritance rights.
 
oldhermit

oldhermit

Senior Member
#79
Jul 28, 2012
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#79
Exactly. It defines nature, not origin. But that raises a lit of important questions. What then is the nature of Jesus?
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#80
#80
How can we prove it defines nature? Isn't an adopted son also a uion?
 
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