Is Jesus God?

kenisyes · Aug 16, 2013

You are absolutely correct. But a proof that Jesus is God that will work in Hebrew still appears to elude us, for the reasons I mentioned. That is not to say one cannot be developed. But the language may have to change to do so; that is a job for all the speakers of Hebrew. If any Christian groups are teaching the trinity, those linguistic changes will start with them, as it is vital to their pupose that jesus is God.

phil36 · Aug 16, 2013

You have to ask them what do they mean by son of God?

It's quite simple, have you taken them from Genesis to revelation, like that of the Emmaus road?

I understand the scope Kenisyes, and if they believe that Jesus was just the son of God and not God himself then they are not Christian, they are denying who Jesus. we can't force anyone to believe the truth, but we can use the Gospel:

[SUP]16 [/SUP]For I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile. [SUP]17 [/SUP]For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last,just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”[SUP] Romans 1

[/SUP]Most Jewish Christians that I know of do not struggle that Jesus is God, mainly because they are Christian. The ones you are talking too must be being taught a false gospel.

oldhermit · Aug 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

I think it is critical that we recognize this point. Some time back I did some work on the concept of triadic reality and the nature of God. This is a part of the chapter on the triadic function of God. Perhaps this may more closely represent, at least in part, how the Hebrews of the O.T. understood the concept of God. Tell me what you think.

When we try to get our mind wrapped around the concept of a triune God that the scriptures describes as ONE GOD, we typically regard this as a paradox that is beyond the ability of the human mind to grasp or explain, so we simply accept it and move on. Over the past two centuries, four major theological theories have surfaced that have attempted to either explain the unity of one God or to refute or at least minimize the idea of triadic unity altogether. These are Monotheism (which is divided into two camps – Adoptionism and Modalism), Unitarianism, Tritheism, and Trinitarianism. To me, these terms are quite irrelevant. I really do not care what difference or similarities may exist between these four theological theories. I am only concerned with trying to understand how the Word of God represents the triadic unity without regard to any human classifications.

Scripture reveals God in three hypostatic distinctions. These three distinct functions involve intelligent design, active cause, and organization. For now, I will only refer to each of these in terms of his respective position within the triadic structure. As we look at functionality, we should not assign identity to any member of the triadic unity. Scripture will do this as we move along. For now, I will simply refer to each member according to his respective functional position within the triad. I use the idea of position
simply to show the functional relationship that each appears to have with the others and to define the role that each has within the
triadic structure. The First Position will always appear as the one who represents the idea or the planning. It is also the position of
command. The Second Position will always be the avenue of communication between the two worlds as well as the causative agent. He will be the one who gives substance to the idea. He takes what is abstract (the idea) and gives it form and substance. The Third Position will always serve as the linking agent. He is the one who brings order to the work of the Second Position. He organizes the work of the Second Position so that it conforms exactly to the idea of the First Position. He shapes a finished product.

These positional functions of each appear to be exclusive. In all of my studies in scripture, I find it quite interesting that I have been unable to find a single textual example where one member of the Triadic Unity is seen operating in the function of another member. For example, we never seem to find the Third Position functioning as the active cause or the Second Position functioning as the linking agent. Each member of the triadic unity always appears to function within the parameters of his exclusive dynamic. (If anyone can show me an example in scripture to the contrary, then I stand corrected). There are places where some of these may appear to overlap but this does not change the basic parameters of positional function. This simple diagram may help to explain the idea of divine triadic structure as it relates to the function of each member of the Triadic Unity in relationship to creation.
Something to think about?????
When God told Moses that he would grant him the exclusive privilege of seeing God, the Lord told Moses “I will allow all of my goodness to pass before you.” Goodness seems to be a collective term used to refer to all of the extended attributes that represent the character of God. All God allowed Moses to see was what was left behind after he had allowed only his extended attributes to pass by. (The terms back and face are anthropomorphic terms for man’s benefit. Could the term “all my goodness” be used by God to represent the full spectrum of the extended properties of God? If so, would this be comparable to the hinder parts or as some have regarded it, “the lesser glory?” If so, would then “my face” represent the primary attributes that Moses was not permitted to look upon)?

We attempt to describe God as a being with a spiritual substance that encapsulates three persons. This seems to be the only way we have been able to conceptualize the idea of a triadic ONE. The Hebrew term in Deuteronomy 6:4 defines a unique ontological quality, not a numeric essence of being.

I am not sure if there is a better word to be used here than essence, but this emphasizes my point that the nature of God cannot be
understood within theparameters of human language. The use of this term is one of our own creation. This word conveys on onelevel the idea of material existence suggesting form or shape, but this definition does not seem to be expressed in scripture. At the same time, it defines intrinsic qualities and characteristics that may have nothing to do with form, shape, or substance. It often refers to intrinsic attributes that are abstract. For example, one cannot see love. One can only see the evidence of love when it demonstrated in one's conduct. One cannot see kindness. One can only see the effects of kindness. This is how the wordessence
should be understood in relation to the nature of God. It is important that we do not equate essence with matter, form, or some type of spiritual equivalent to material substance. Remember, we are attempting to use human language to explain what is unexplainable this side of the eternal dimension. There have been many attempts to create models to help us understand the unity of ‘One’ God. This writer is no different in this regard. However, we must acknowledge the fact that it is impossible to create a definitive model of something we cannot see. How does one reduce God to a diagram on a piece of paper?

John 1 was written in order to create a clearer picture of this God of the O. T. who until now, had revealed very little of himself. Jesus is introduced according to his function in the triadic unity. He is the conduit of communication between the mind of God and the mind of man - He is the λόγος. He is also represented as the active cause of creation. This introduction culminates in verse 18 when John says, "No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God (Son) who is in the bosom of the Father, He has eἐξηγήσατο Him.

kenisyes · Aug 16, 2013

phil36 said:

This is the critical issue. You see, they believe they are Christian thinking that Jesus is the son of God, and I think that in their minds the son of God is God, even though that proposition cannot be formulated properly in the Hebrew language. and until it can be, we really can't ask them.

kenisyes · Aug 16, 2013

oldhermit said:

I have come up with somewhat the same idea. It is certainly Scriptural (to within the limits of our language to express the relationship), and is another way to say, Elohim, Messiah, and Ruach HaKodesh. The functions follow from thoughts like in Pythagorean philosophy of the universe as number made manifest, and so are easy to demonstrate as a satisfactory model for reality (you must have exactly 3 dimensions for physical life with repentance possible, so any model used by God to minister to us on condition of repentance must have exactly 3 axes). Scripture presents God in all three capacities as you say. It's almost a circular argument though, since it starts with "Scripture presents God in three..."; this is assuming that these three capacities are the three "persons" in which God chooses to manifest (as opposed, say, to three functions shared by God and an angel). Since it assumes that "active cause" is part of God, and not just a function He carries out through an angel) you cannot use it to prove that "active cause" (as Jesus is presented in Scripture) is God. (The communicative faculty is in fact, presented in the Book of Jubilees as the "angel of the presence", creating arguments among scholars whether this angel is meant to be the Messiah or not. So I am speaking not just about theoretical possibility, but actually a contrary argument witnessed in early Christian history.)

The argument to the contrary runs also like this: Suppose a fourth facet of God were discovered in Scripture. Since the first part of the theory requires God to be in three parts, one of the first supposed three must be eliminated to allow for the newly discovered fourth. Persian philosophy entered late Judaism and proposes that there are two equal creators, one good one evil, for example. (There was a thread on this last week, I believe, something like "Is Satan God"). Early gnosticism proposed the creation by God of a creative intermediary for the earth (a demiurge), who could also be linked to the active cause. Either of these would be a fourth function of God, and they are just two examples. At this point, the "Son of God" would cease to be God, merely some kind of divine offspring whose mission is to set right our understanding of the relationship between the equal creators or the creator and the demiurge.

You will certainly answer, "but these theories are unscriptural". I would agree. But history witnesses early Christians, sometimes many and educated, who believed they were Scriptural. And there is no way to determine that there is not a fourth function of God in Scripture somewhere (in fact Pentecostals of Dover, a denomination with which I have some personal acquaintance) will not teach the trinity simply becuase they believe a fourth "person" may one day be found in Scripture, and they do not wish to prejudice future Biblical studies.

Trax · Aug 16, 2013

Antoni123 said:

Jesus made it clear who He is, you just got to know the "OT" because that is what Jesus used.
Jesus didn't say "I'm God", but He did what only God does, as mentioned in the OT.
And cause He did what only Jehovah could do, Jesus didn't have to explain it.

1. Only Jehovah rules over the sea and waves
Psa 89:8-9 O LORD [Jehovah] God of hosts, who is a strong LORD like unto thee? or to thy
faithfulness round about thee? (9) Thou rulest the raging of the sea: when the waves thereof
arise, thou stillest them.

Luk 8:24-25 And they came to him, and awoke him, saying, Master, master, we perish. Then he [Jesus]
arose, and rebuked the wind and the raging of the water: and they ceased, and there was a calm.
(25) And he said unto them, Where is your faith? And they being afraid wondered, saying one to another,
What manner of man is this! for he commandeth even the winds and water, and they obey him [Jesus].

2. Jehovah is the source of Living Waters

Jer 2:12-13 Be astonished, O ye heavens, at this, and be horribly afraid, be ye very desolate, saith the
LORD [Jehovah]. (13) For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters,
and hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

Joh 4:7-10 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.
(9) Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which
am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans. (10) Jesus answered and said
unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest
have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.

3. Jehovah the Good Shepherd

Eze 34:11 For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.
Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up
that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong;
I will feed them with judgment.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.

4. Only Jesus has seen the Father
Joh 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

So who did Abraham see? Gen 17:1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine,
the LORD [Jehovah] appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me,
and be thou perfect. Gen 18:1 And the LORD [Jehovah] appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre:
and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Joh 8:56 [Jesus speaking] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

5. If you haven't figured it out or having trouble putting it together, Jesus tells how you are to respond
to Him: Joh 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth
not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.
Jesus rules out "love Him as your neighbor", that is, another human. No, He says you got to
put Me on the same level as the Father. This is also saying, if you treat the Son (Jesus) as just
a good man, then you giving that same type of honor to the Father.

This is just a few examples from the OT. Jesus did what Jehovah did and claimed to do what only
Jehovah could do. He even said before Abraham was, I Am. He says to put me on the same level
as the Father. To miss all this, is to NOT want to believe who Jesus is.

oldhermit · Aug 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

I have come up with somewhat the same idea. It is certainly Scriptural (to within the limits of our language to express the relationship), and is another way to say, Elohim, Messiah, and Ruach HaKodesh. The functions follow from thoughts like in Pythagorean philosophy of the universe as number made manifest, and so are easy to demonstrate as a satisfactory model for reality (you must have exactly 3 dimensions for physical life with repentance possible, so any model used by God to minister to us on condition of repentance must have exactly 3 axes). Scripture presents God in all three capacities as you say. It's almost a circular argument though, since it starts with "Scripture presents God in three..."; this is assuming that these three capacities are the three "persons" in which God chooses to manifest (as opposed, say, to three functions shared by God and an angel). Since it assumes that "active cause" is part of God, and not just a function He carries out through an angel) you cannot use it to prove that "active cause" (as Jesus is presented in Scripture) is God. (The communicative faculty is in fact, presented in the Book of Jubilees as the "angel of the presence", creating arguments among scholars whether this angel is meant to be the Messiah or not. So I am speaking not just about theoretical possibility, but actually a contrary argument witnessed in early Christian history.)

The argument to the contrary runs also like this: Suppose a fourth facet of God were discovered in Scripture. Since the first part of the theory requires God to be in three parts, one of the first supposed three must be eliminated to allow for the newly discovered fourth. Persian philosophy entered late Judaism and proposes that there are two equal creators, one good one evil, for example. (There was a thread on this last week, I believe, something like "Is Satan God"). Early gnosticism proposed the creation by God of a creative intermediary for the earth (a demiurge), who could also be linked to the active cause. Either of these would be a fourth function of God, and they are just two examples. At this point, the "Son of God" would cease to be God, merely some kind of divine offspring whose mission is to set right our understanding of the relationship between the equal creators or the creator and the demiurge.

You will certainly answer, "but these theories are unscriptural". I would agree. But history witnesses early Christians, sometimes many and educated, who believed they were Scriptural. And there is no way to determine that there is not a fourth function of God in Scripture somewhere (in fact Pentecostals of Dover, a denomination with which I have some personal acquaintance) will not teach the trinity simply becuase they believe a fourth "person" may one day be found in Scripture, and they do not wish to prejudice future Biblical studies.

This would certainly be inconsistent with everything God has already revealed about himself in scripture. Everything in creation is rooted in the triadic nature of God. Even the simplest task of everyday human existence and our experiences in the natural world are rooted in this triadic structure. You can not escape it. The triadic structure of creation rests exclusively on the fact that God himself is triadic. Do not confuse multi-faceted function as representing something beyond the triadic unity. God is triadic in nature and each member of that unity has a functional dynamic yet, each one independently represents more than one function.

kenisyes · Aug 16, 2013

oldhermit said:

I won't. But my experience is that it is very difficult to make that clear to certain people, especially certain Messianic Jews, and possibly the author of the OP.

Your statement "everyday human existence and our experiences in the natural world are rooted in this triadic structure" is clear to me, but is the product of Greek thinking, not Hebrew thinking, and this is a big part of the problem.

oldhermit · Aug 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

I won't. But my experience is that it is very difficult to make that clear to certain people, especially certain Messianic Jews, and possibly the author of the OP.

Your statement "everyday human existence and our experiences in the natural world are rooted in this triadic structure" is clear to me, but is the product of Greek thinking, not Hebrew thinking, and this is a big part of the problem.

Delete......

kenisyes · Aug 16, 2013

oldhermit said:

I don't know about Greek thought on this matter. All I can do is relate the concept as it is represented in scripture. Let me see if I can explain it in this way.
Triadic
reasoning is reason that involves three supporting components that
have a particular kind of relationship to one another. Triadic
reality is made up of the eternal, this is the part of reality we
cannot see; the temporal, which is the world of objects that lends
itself to human empirical observation; and the linkage between the
two. The linkage creates continuity between the observable and the
non-observable. Everything scripture reveals about both the natural
and the non-natural world is based on this triadic structure.

This is a perfect explanation of the Greek reasoning. Can you pull it out of Scripture?

oldhermit · Aug 16, 2013

oldhermit said:

I don't know about Greek thought on this matter. All I can do is relate the concept as it is represented in scripture. Let me see if I can explain it in this way.

Triadic reasoning is reason that involves three supporting components that have a particular kind of relationship to one another. Triadic reality is made up of the eternal, this is the part of reality we cannot see; the temporal, which is the world of objects that lends itself to human empirical observation; and the linkage between the two. The linkage creates continuity between that which is observable and the non-observable. Everything scripture reveals about both the natural and the non-natural world is based on this triadic structure.

Let me offer two examples that may better illustrate the concept of triadic reality and how, that in the triadic movement, the index position links the other two elements in the triad. In this way, we can see how two incommensurable worlds are joined together into a single reality. Consider these two examples.

In the building of any material structure, three components are always required. First, there is the one who represents the unseen world of ideas. The building exists initially only as an abstract within the mind of its creator. Second, are the building materials that exist in the world of objects such as wood, brick, mortar, purlin, conduit, and so on. Thirdly, the contractor serves as the linking agent. He is responsible for organizing matter so that it conforms to the unseen idea. Without the contractor, materials will not simply reorganize themselves and conform to the idea that exists in the mind of the Architect. Conformity requires the active participation of the linking agent.

Let us consider something as elementary as looking at a painting. When one looks at a painting, one can only do so on the basis of triadic structure. What one sees when one looks at a painting is not the painting itself but an image of the painting that is carried by light reflected off the object. Light strikes the object and travels the distance between the object and the eye of the observer. A copy of the object is then projected into one’s retina. An electrical impulse message is then sent to the cerebral cortex inside the brain. It then stores the copy of the object as an icon of the real, actual object. Only a representation of the object exists inside the brain. The brain then interprets the image and tells us that what we are seeing is a painting. This process is triadic because it uses three points of valence. There is the painting, which exists in the world of objects, the image that is carried by light and created by electrical impulses in the brain of the observer, and the cognitive observer himself. The observer stands as the linking agent who must establish continuity between the painting and the image that is received by the brain. To do this, he connects the image in his to the object and is able to recognize the object as a painting. Recognition is the result of processing information received and comparing it with information already stored in the brain from his experiences with other paintings. Because he has seen a painting before, he knows what a painting looks like. He is therefore able to classify the object correctly. This is how we are created. This triadic structure allows us to interact effectively with the world around us. You cannot even so much as brush you teeth without triadic structure. All of this is the framework of the universe and it exists in this way because God himself exists in this way. Creation is based on the nature of god himself. To suggest that some day, someone may find in scripture a "fourth" member of the divine unity simply will not stand.

finnsbane · Aug 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

"Before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

A claim made by Christ that was so profound and antithetical to every Jewish tradition and custom, that the religious leaders picked up stones to throw at Him. As Pharisees, they likely would have had entire portions, if not all, of the Torah committed to memory. There is no doubt this direct quote from Exodus 3:14 that Jesus is making about Himself would have escaped them. This was blasphemy to them, which is why they wanted Him dead. If there is any confusion as to Jesus Christ being YHWH GOD Almighty, let His words be the end of it!

To Him be the glory forever and ever! Amen-Amen!

phil36 · Aug 16, 2013

kenisyes said:

Jesus is the son of God, and he is God.. your making an issue out of something that actually is not a problem, they will understand sonship very well! and to become Christian I am sure they have been taught the gospel and understand that Jesus is God.

To say that they don't understand because there is no specific word in Hebrew really is a non issue.
am sure that they can read the Hebrew translations of the NT? I believe your turning something so simple into a technical issue were it doesn't need to be.

And I am sure if you ask a jew who is Christian to tell you about Jesus and how he is God they wil tell you.. or do you not think that there are thousand of jewish Christians who speak both English and Hebrew? (which voids your argument)
,

Antoni123 · Aug 16, 2013

Would anyone be interested in having a transcribed discussion about this over email? This is the perfect time to try to convert a non-Trinitarian. I find discussion boards to be a little too messy because everyone is spewing out so many things at once. PM me if you are interested

oldhermit · Aug 16, 2013

Antoni123 said:

Would anyone be interested in having a transcribed discussion about this over email? This is the perfect time to try to convert a non-Trinitarian. I find discussion boards to be a little too messy because everyone is spewing out so many things at once. PM me if you are interested

Who would you prefer?

SpaceCowboy · Aug 16, 2013

Yes. Jesus Christ is God.

You have to repent of your sins and put your faith in Him to be granted everlasting life.
_

We can have a conversation from there if you'd like.

Praus · Aug 17, 2013

jonathanbchristian said:

It's "lose" not "loose". I'm not clear how you earned that high-powered Ph.D in psychology without basic English skills.

GreenNnice · Aug 17, 2013

Antoni123 said:

You just can't 'picture' this triune nature of God, this ability to be three seperate folks but one, hard to believe that God can have Himself sitting at His own right hand, and, that Jesus is God, the Judge of the world , you can't, can you, antone?

The Father is the Son is the Holy Spirit. God shows us time and again in Scripture this tri-unity of "three as one." Blessings, bro. The Lord leads.

Kerry · Aug 17, 2013

Jesus is God and who did pray to as He often did. Did Jesus pray to Himself if so why when He knew the answer berfore He prayed. Yall some mixed up folks i pray that God helps you cause yall tow up.

kenisyes · Aug 17, 2013

oldhermit said:

Again, the whole post great Greek-based reasoning, but I know of no parallels in Hebrew thought. Without that parallel, some can still argue that since everyone who wrote the Bible was a Hebrew, the Bible might still contain something that does not fit the Greek reasoning. Remember, the entire history of Chrisianity since 70AD is all Greek-Roman, but its foundation is all Hebrew. We have had many centuries to impose our cultural ideas on its interpretation.

Is Jesus God?

kenisyes

Guest

Senior Member

Senior Member

kenisyes

Guest

kenisyes

Guest

Trax

Guest

Senior Member

kenisyes

Guest

Senior Member

kenisyes

Guest

Senior Member

finnsbane

Guest

Senior Member

Antoni123

Guest

Senior Member

SpaceCowboy

Guest

Banned

GreenNnice

Guest

Kerry

Guest

kenisyes

Guest