Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

PlainWord · Jul 21, 2013

Please cite a scripture for this statement in red dear brother.

Chosen,

This verse is one of the most mis-used and over-used verse by pre-tribbers. This verse has nothing to do with escaping God's wrath during the Tribulation. It is about escaping God's eternal wrath and condemnation. Context, Context, Context.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

There is nothing in the above that suggests we escape the wrath of the Tribulation. In fact we're told that we are not in darkness so that this (Day of the Lord) should overtake us as a thief. We are told to watch and be sober and put on the helmet of hope of salvation. We are told that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with (Jesus).

But I do agree brother Chosen, that the 7 bowls of God's wrath are aimed at the Beast and his kingdom. They are terrible judgments concluding with the Battle of Armageddon, a massive earthquake that levels every mountain and sinks every island with 100 lb hail stones falling on the Beast's kingdom.

Please answer my 5 questions above dear Chosen. thank you.

Mammachickadee · Jul 21, 2013

PlainWord said:

If you are saying this pertains to the tribulation you might want to put the verse in context. This letter was addressed to Christians, therefore no need for warning of condemnation. The judgement upon the beast and his kingdom refers strictly to the consequences of falling short of God's holiness. Doing what God says to avoid His wrath may make for a somewhat more peaceful life, but it does not guarantee salvation and certainly does not guarantee that we will never suffer tribulation. In fact, Christ guarantees suffering to those who are His own. Your statement about the Lake of Fire is spot on and has nothing to do with the placement of the Rapture in relation to the Tribulation, though.

PlainWord · Jul 21, 2013

Mammachickadee said:

I am saying that those who believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture view often cite 1 Thes 5:9 as evidence the Church will be raptured and not suffer God's wrath as it pertains to the Tribulation. I am saying "not appointed to wrath" in this context has nothing to do with the suffering people will endure during the Great Tribulation, rather, God's wrath in the context of 1 Thes 5:9 is referring to Condemnation Wrath. Paul is saying,

"God did not appoint us to wrath"

Correct, Paul is speaking to Christians and telling them, "God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation...." Paul was not speaking of tribulation wrath as pre-tribbers like to suggest. That is what I was saying.

ChosenbyHim · Jul 21, 2013

PlainWord said:

Please cite a scripture for this statement in red dear brother.

Chosen,

This verse is one of the most mis-used and over-used verse by pre-tribbers. This verse has nothing to do with escaping God's wrath during the Tribulation. It is about escaping God's eternal wrath and condemnation. Context, Context, Context.

1 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, "Peace and safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

There is nothing in the above that suggests we escape the wrath of the Tribulation. In fact we're told that we are not in darkness so that this (Day of the Lord) should overtake us as a thief. We are told to watch and be sober and put on the helmet of hope of salvation. We are told that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with (Jesus).

But I do agree brother Chosen, that the 7 bowls of God's wrath are aimed at the Beast and his kingdom. They are terrible judgments concluding with the Battle of Armageddon, a massive earthquake that levels every mountain and sinks every island with 100 lb hail stones falling on the Beast's kingdom.

Please answer my 5 questions above dear Chosen. thank you.

I'll answer them shortly plain. But you are still missing the point. The time of Jacob's trouble is not for the Church, it is for unbelieving Israel. It is to bring Israel into correction. Go and read Jeremiah 30. And see who that passage is addressed to.

Another thing Plain, the rapture is said to happen in a moment, which means it could happen at any moment. For the rapture to happen at any moment, it must be a pre-trib rapture. You have to study and compare Scripture with Scripture.

Again, I will answer your questions and address each one of them shortly, but please be patient.

PlainWord · Jul 21, 2013

ChosenbyHim said:

Dear Brother Chosen,
Okay, I will await your further response to my 5 simple questions that anyone should be able to answer in 2 minutes.

I never said the time of Jacob's trouble was for the church. There are things that will be happening to the Jewish people to win them back and there will be things happening to the world at large. Once the unbelieving Jews are purged and the rest of the Gentiles come in, the Olive Tree will be complete and ready to become the Bride of Christ. Read Isaiah 14:1. There will be strangers in the land.

As for this "in a moment thing" wow, seriously?? Paul is saying that once the Lord comes, we will be changed in a twinkling of an eye, he isn't saying that there aren't conditions that have to happen first. A bullet is fast but that doesn't mean a gun can go off by itself at any moment. It has to be loaded and someone has to pull the trigger. But once those precursor requirements are met, the bullet hits its target in a moment.

ChosenbyHim · Jul 21, 2013

PlainWord said:

Yes 1 Thessalonians 4:15-18 is a passage of Scripture that is clearly about the Pre-trib. Rapture.

PlainWord said:

Yes, I agree that the dead in Christ rise first at the translation (rapture) of the Church Age saints.

PlainWord said:

Plain, you do realize that there are three parts to the first resurrection, don't you?

The first part of the First General Resurrection, I believe was when the Old Testament saints resurrected with the Lord Jesus Christ at His resurrection:

52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God. - Matthew 27:52-54 (KJV)

So from comparing Scripture with Scripture, we can see that the resurrection of the dead in Christ at the Rapture, is the second part to the First Resurrection.

PlainWord said:

Yes, again, take the resurrection of the Old Testament saints in Matthew 27:52-54. They resurrected with the Lord Jesus Christ.

PlainWord said:

Simple, he is referring to the other Christians, Church Age saints that are in Christ which are the only ones remaining. As in remaining to take part in the Rapture. In other words, we are the only ones left and remaining to take part in the Rapture.

Here are some of the definitions of remain:

re·main

[ri-meyn] Show IPA
verb (used without object)1.to continue in the same state; continue to be as specified: to remain at peace.

2.to stay behind or in the same place: to remain at home; I'll remain here when you go to the airport.

3.to be left after the removal, loss, destruction, etc., of all else: The front wall is all that remains of thefort.

So we that are alive at the Rapture, will remain alive to be taken and caught up with the dead in Christ in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

Anonimous · Jul 21, 2013

GRA said:

Maybe when I said, 'On my own" I should have been clearer. When I began to seriously seek the truth about what is taught by men from tradition and what the word actually says I sought the Holy Spirit while doing it. Of course, others can say the same thing and have a totally different interpretation. I remember in class one time I mentioned that there can only be one truth...maybe different interpretations but in the end only one meaning as intended by the author.

ChosenbyHim · Jul 21, 2013

PlainWord said:

Well Plain, yes the word does not change.

But the Gospel is different in the time of Jacob's trouble from the Gospel that is preached today.

This is the Gospel that one is to believe in the Church Age to be saved:

8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. - Romans 10:8-13 (KJV)

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-6 (KJV)

Those two passages of Scripture clearly teach us what the Gospel for the Church Age or Dispensation of Grace is. It is believing the Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Now what Gospel will be preached during the time of Jacob's trouble?

This will be the Gospel in the time of Jacob's trouble:

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:1-12 (KJV)

So the Gospel that is preached in the time of Jacob's trouble involves works. The Gospel being preached in the time of Jacob's trouble is that the people and nations that dwell on the earth are to fear God, and give Him glory, and to worship Him.

And also there is a condition that comes with this Gospel that is preached in the time of Jacob's trouble, and that is that no man or woman is to take the mark of the beast nor are they to worship the beast or his image. See? There are works involved with one's salvation during the time of Jacob's trouble. It is all connected together. Anyone who will be honest with themselves about what this passage of Scripture in Revelation 14 is teaching there can see that. Jews and gentiles will not get saved the same way during the time of Jacob's trouble as Jews and Gentiles get saved today in the Church Age. There is a dispensational distinction there and you have to acknowledge that.

In the time of Jacob's trouble, a man or woman cannot worship both the Lord and the antichrist together. It doesn't work. In order to worship the Lord and to give Him glory, one will have to refuse to worhsip the beast and his image, and will also have to refuse the mark of the beast. Because taking the mark of the beast and worshipping the beast is connected.

There is worship involved in the mark of the beast system that Satan and the antichrist will have set up during the time of Jacob's trouble. And the Scriptures clearly teach that. There will be worship involved in taking the mark of the beast.

So in order to believe and obey the Gospel that is preached by the angel during the time of Jacob's trouble, that is in order to worship God Almighty and give Him glory, a tribulation saint will have to keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (See Revelation 14:12).

And part of those commandments that are to be kept are the commandments to not take or receive the mark of the beast, and to not worship the beast or his image. (See Revelation 14:9).

Also, there is no eternal security during the time of Jacob's trouble, except for the 144,000 Jews whose foreheads are sealed with the seal of God.

If one is keeping the commandments of God during the time of Jacob's trouble and is also at the time keeping the faith of Jesus, but sooner or later that same person decides to take the mark of the beast due to pressure and hunger, and other factors, no matter how sincere that man or woman was in their faith, that person that took the mark of the beast just damned themselves to an eternity in the Lake of Fire.

They may have believed before, but by them taking the mark of the beast, they did not endure unto the end. They did not continue to keep the commandments of God.

You see by them taking the mark of the beast, they failed to keep the commandment given in Revelation 14:7 which was for them to fear God, to give Him glory and to worship Him. And a person cannot do that if they all of a sudden due to mounting pressure decide to take the mark of the beast.

So eternal security is not in the time of Jacob's trouble for the tribulation saint.

We born again Christians in the Church Age today do have eternal security, because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit of God (Eph. 1:13 & Eph. 4:30), and we are in the Body of Christ ( 1 Cor. 12). And in the Church Age we are saved by grace through faith and not of works (Ephesians 2:8-13, Romans 4:3-6, and Titus 3:5).

So if there are works involved with salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble, which is why there is no eternal security for the tribulation saint during that time period. And if there are no works involved with salvation now in the Church Age, and there is eternal security for the believer today, then that must mean Plain that there is clearly a dispensational distinction and change there.

Something changes Plain. What you are seeing in this post is that there are two distinct dispensations where salvation is dispensed differently. What ends the Church Age is the Rapture.

The Church Age has lasted about 2000 years now. And if you study church history, the Gospel for the Church Age has not changed. Christians in the first and second century were saved the same way we are today, and that is by believing on the Lord Jesus Christ. And just like they were saved by grace through faith only without any works, so are we today.

Because salvation is obtained differently in the time of Jacob's trouble than how it is obtained today in the Church Age, that should tell you something Plain.

For people to be teaching that Christians will have to go through the time of Jacob's trouble, what they are essentially teaching is that while all the Christians of the past 2,000 years all had eternal security and were not saved by their works but only by grace through faith, we Christians in these last days will somehow be a bit different in that we will have to be saved by our works since we will have to endure unto the end to be saved in the time of Jacob's trouble. See the problem here. In other words, we Christians living now will be the only exception.

Again do you see the problem with that argument. Now the post tribbers or mid tribbers may not come out in the open and say that, but that is essentially what they believe. And that is essentially the error that they are teaching.

You have to be dispensational. You have to rightly divide the word of truth. When you do that, you will see clearly and begin to understand that the Holy Bible does indeed teach a pre-trib. Rapture.

Post trib rapture will not work. For one to teach a post trib. rapture, one has to lie about Scripture and they have to disobey 2 Timothy 2:15.

Plus, they have to steal promises that are given to the Jews.

And a Mid-Trib Rapture won't work either.

In the time of Jacob's trouble, there are two distinct bodies: Jews and Gentiles.

In the Church Age: there is only one Body. And that is the Body of Christ. And there is neither Jew nor Greek, for we are all one in Christ (Gal. 3:28).

That is why when a Gentile gets saved today, he is to be called a Christian. And if a Jew gets saved today, he also is to be called a Christian.

See? There are no two distinct bodies of believers in the Church Age. There is only the Body of Christ. There is only one Body of born again believers in the Dispensation of Grace (Church Age).

So again Plain, you have to acknowledge those two dispensations (Church Age and the time of Jacob's trouble).

I hope this is helping you. You have to understand the different dispensations in order to correctly understand the proper and right timing of the Translation (Rapture) of the Body of Christ. Again, I hope this has helped you. Please consider what has been said here.

just-me · Jul 21, 2013

I'm a post tribulation person. I'm afraid of the church becoming, and probably already is, apathetic. It's like "we aren't going to be here, so I'm not gettin' involved." I've even heard some Christians say that they agree with the separation of church and state.

That separation isn't constitutional. It was stated in a letter from Thomas Jefferson In October 1801, the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. He states to them "I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

PlainWord · Jul 22, 2013

Chosen,

Wow, thanks for sharing your point of view on the Gospel above. I definitely feel better educated in how some Christians can develop a belief system so different than mine or what is clearly taught in the Word.

I suggest you read Gal 1 my good friend.

[SUP]6 [/SUP]I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

[SUP]7 [/SUP]Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

[SUP]9 [/SUP]As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Those in the Tribulation are not going to be operating under a new Gospel. The same Gospel given by Jesus, Paul and the disciples is the same that will apply FOREVER. I do think there is a chance Jesus will set up a new operating system for the Millennium since we are told he will rule the nations with a rod of iron but what those new rules may be is anyone's guess, but the Gospel will NEVER change. EVER, EVER, EVER!!!

The passage you cite in Rev 14 is NOT dealing with changing out the Gospel into a new one based upon works. Why on earth would God do that, go back to the Law when it was proven that the law no man could keep?

Anyway, please note that John is still in heaven in spirit in Chapter 14. Anyway, let me explain the verses you are citing because you have them all wrong.

This is the same Gospel we all know and love. See the word, EVERLASTING? Does that sound like a Gospel that has changed?

Again, John is in heaven and this refers to the saints that have already died and are in heaven with him He is speaking of them. Notice that it is in two parts? The first part dealt with keeping the Commandments. These are the OT saints. The second part dealt with NT saint, those who keep the faith of Jesus.

ChosenbyHim · Jul 23, 2013

PlainWord said:

Plain, I am aware of that passage of Scripture. And yeah, if I was telling you that the Gospel that the third angel preached in Revelation 14:6-7 was for today in the Church Age, then it would heresy. But what I am telling you plain, that the Gospel of grace without works that is in effect for the Church Age today, will not be in effect in the time of Jacob's trouble. And I just gave you Scriptural proof of that in the last post.

You have to be dispensational sir. You are going to have to rightly divide the word of truth. It is that simple. I am going share here a video that brother Bryan Denlinger did on the Gospel in the tribulation. I recommend that you listen to it Plain. I encourage and exhort you to listen to it. Here is the video for the sermon:

The Gospel of Salvation In The Tribulation - By Bryan Denlinger

[video=youtube;bmgR8swVepc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmgR8swVepc[/video]

PlainWord said:

Plain, the Gospel that our Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles preached in the Gospels is different than the Gospel which Paul preached in the Pauline epistles. In the Gospels, the Gospel of the Kingdom was preached.

But in the Pauline epistles, the Gospel which Paul preached is the Gospel of the death, burial and resurrection. Let me give you an example of this:

3 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3 For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. - Matthew 3:1-3 (KJV)

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
18 And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers.
19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.
20 And they straightway left their nets, and followed him. - Matthew 4:17-20 (KJV)

The Gospel which John the Baptist and our Lord Jesus Christ were preaching was the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Kingdom was being offered to the Jews. But what happened was is that the Jews rejected the Lord Jesus Christ and His offer of the Kingdom. When the Jews rejected Jesus Christ, they rejected the Kingdom, and hence the Church Age, or Dispensation of Grace was brought in. That is why when you read the book of Acts, you will notice that the Gospel shifts from being preached to the Jews over to being preached to the Gentiles. Acts begins with Peter and at about chapter 13, it then transitions over to the Apostle Paul. Acts is a transitional book, just like Matthew and Hebrews are.

It sounds to me Plain, that you have never been shown the Dispensational study method of the Bible.

Now we know that Paul outlines the Gospel for the Church Age or Dispensation of Grace in 1 Corinthians 15:1-6:

15 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. - 1 Corinthians 15:1-6 (KJV)

That right there Plain is the Gospel for the Church Age. The Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

And the Gospel which Paul preached in the Pauline epistles is not the same Gospel which the Lord Jesus Christ and His twelve apostles preached in the Gospels during the earthly ministry of Jesus Christ.

Here is some Scripture to show you that this is the case:
10 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.
5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,
10 Nor scrip for your journey, neither two coats, neither shoes, nor yet staves: for the workman is worthy of his meat.
11 And into whatsoever city or town ye shall enter, enquire who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go thence.
12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city. - Matthew 10:1-15 (KJV)

21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. - Matthew 15:21-28 (KJV)

You see, the Lord Jesus Christ came and in His earthly ministry he went mainly to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. That is very important to note Plain. That is why we are commanded to study and to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

Also, while Jesus Christ did on occasion witness to the Samaritans (remember that the Samaritans were part Jewish), as well as to the Gentiles when they would come to see Him. Still what must be noted is that the Lord Jesus Christ did not turn to the Gentiles in active ministry, and He never led His disciples do so either.

If you consider Acts 10 where Peter is reluctant to go to the Gentiles and witness to them shows how the early disciples took the Great Commission in a confined sense. You see they had never been told to go to the Gentiles.

Another thing to consider is how the apostle Paul testified that the Lord Jesus was a minister of the Jews:

8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers: - Romans 15:8 (KJV)

Do you see the distinction? Can you see the dispensational distinction that is there? Jesus was indeed a minister of the Jews. His purpose was to confirm the promises made unto the fathers just as Paul states in Rom. 15:8, and this definitely included the offer of the physical and earthly kingdom to the Jews.

In John 1, we can see the apostle John clearly affirming this:

10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. - John 1:10-13 (KJV)

So again, the Gospel that Jesus and His disciples preached during His earthly ministry to the Jews is not the same Gospel that Paul preached in Roman 10 and in 1 Corinthians 15:1-6.

It is that simple Plain. You have to rightly divide the word of truth sir.

PlainWord said:

Well Plain, God is God. And if God wants to change the way how the Gospel of salvation is dispensed. Then He can. Salvation has been dispensed differently in the different dispensations throughout Holy Scripture.

And Plain, it is right there in Rev. 14. It is clear that the Gospel in the time of Jacob's trouble is going to be one that is based on works. The Jews and Gentiles in that time period cannot take the mark of the beast, that is why they have to endure unto the end to be saved. That requires works. It is very clear Plain.

ChosenbyHim · Jul 23, 2013

PlainWord said:

Well Plain, that is the first time I have heard someone give an interpretation like that. Let us take a look at the passage again though, keeping it in context:

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:1-12 (KJV)

In the context, the angel flying in the midst of Heaven is preaching the everlasting Gospel to every nation, kindred, and people that dwell on the earth.

These are people who are living in the time of Jacob's trouble. It is very clear that this is the case in that passage. And then notice that then the third angel comes and warns every man and women what will happen if any of them take the mark of the beast.

And then here is verse 12 of the passage:

12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. - Revelation 14:12 (KJV)

Notice it says there patience of the saints. And it follows with: here are they that keep (present tense) the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Notice that it did not say: they that kept the commandments of God.

But rather it says: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

So when taking this verse in the context within the whole passage, it should be clear that it is the tribulation saints that Revelation 14:12 is referring to.

Works will be involved during the time of Jacob's trouble. And if you read James and Hebrews, you will see that they affirm what I just said. And that is the book of James and Hebrews affirms that there will be an element of works along with faith for salvation in the time of Jacob's trouble.

Nick01 · Jul 23, 2013

Amillenialists represent.

PlainWord · Jul 23, 2013

Chosen,

My dear friend. I didn't realize how dangerous this Dispensational teaching was until I read your last two posts. Of course the same Darby is credited with being the father of Dispensational teaching as he is credited with being the founder of the Pre-Trib Rapture myth. I know neither were totally his idea and that he took ideas from others, but this cat Darby is a very dangerous person and has done irreparable damage to the church and the kingdom, whether unwittingly or not.

I am okay, with dispensational teaching to a point. There are clearly different dispensations taught in the Bible. We went from the Law to Grace. That is a clear change and well taught. However, when the teachings of man conflict with the clear Word of God, those teachings of man MUST be rejected and run from.

The Gospel has NOT changed my good friend. It is everlasting. You even quoted the passage Rev 14:6. Something that is EVERLASTING does not change and if you have a dispensational view that suggests it does, you need to discard that dispensational view. Because of the Word of God says something is EVERLASTING you can take that fact to the bank!!!

The Gospel is simply the teachings of Jesus and His disciples. According to Dictionary.com it is:

[h=2]gos·pel[/h] [gos-puhl] Show IPA
noun 1. the teachings of Jesus and the apostles; the Christian revelation.

2. the story of Christ's life and teachings, especially as contained in the first four books of the new testament, namely Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John.

Don't confuse the Gospel with Salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9

[SUP]8 [/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I think you are doing a little too much "dividing" and not enough "rightly" dear Chosen. Don't over think the Word. It wasn't written so that you have to be a scholar to understand it. You are making too much of a distinction between Jew and Gentile and how the Gospel applies. The GOSPEL APPLIES EQUALLY TO EACH AND IT IS THE SAME GOSPEL!!

Acts 15:7-9

[SUP]7 [/SUP]And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

[SUP]10 [/SUP]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

[SUP]11 [/SUP]But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

The Lord and John the Baptist spoke of the Kingdom - Correct. Jesus had not died yet. This in NO WAY MEANS THE GOSPEL HAS CHANGED FROM THE DAYS OF JESUS TO PAUL. As far as the passage in Rev is concerned,

Jesus gave commandments too; John 13:34-35 "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 14:21 "He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who love Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I love him and manifest Myself to Him."

John 15:10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love."

John 15:12 "This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you."

1 Cor 7:19, "...but keeping the commandments of God is what matters."

Commandments are given throughout the Gospel and into the Church Age or period of Grace. Commandments were given to the disciples by the Holy Spirit, Acts 1:2, and in verse 8 they were instructed to be witnesses to Me (Jesus) in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

False teachings ran rampant in the early church and continue to this day, Acts 15:24 for example and of course the 7 churches in Revelation. Paul taught in Romans 7:

[SUP]6 [/SUP]But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

And it goes on.

There is no change between how we are saved today and how those (I believe everyone) will be saved during the Tribulation. I agree there are some further restrictions during the Tribulation such as you pointed out, if you take the mark of the Beast you cannot be saved. The part about those who endure to the end being saved refers definitely to the Jews (but is unclear if it extends to the Gentile) as we see in Zech 13:

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the Lord, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God.

While all of this stuff is important it isn't the purpose of this thread which is Pre-Trib vs. Post, so I would like us to stay on topic.

PlainWord · Jul 23, 2013

I can't stress enough dear Chosen,

Man's words NEVER trump the Word of God. It is not okay to say that the way to salvation has changed from the way it is today in the end times unless you have a clear passage that says it changed. You cite Rev 14:12 as proof that the way to Salvation has changed. Here it is (NKJV)

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The above doesn't say the Gospel has changed. It doesn't say that all of a sudden works are needed in addition to faith. It doesn't even say who these saints are or where they are - heaven or earth. We have angels flying in heaven getting ready to preach to people on earth but we aren't told if these saints are the ones in heaven or on earth. For all we know these are the same saints told to rest in Rev 6 being told here to have patience. The point I'm trying to make Chosen is you can't make HUGE Doctrinal change leaps on the strength of one small and very ambiguous verse when to do so would fly in the face of the weight of all the clear verses that teach a contrary doctrine. You are doing it here and you and the other Pre-Tribbers do it with that theory.

You don't have one single verse that places the Rapture before the Tribulation - NOT ONE.
You don't have one single passage that even hints of a Rapture AND a second advent return of Christ - NOT ONE.
You don't have a single verse that puts the church in heaven during the Tribulation - NOT ONE.

You need all three to prove your theory and you don't have one. If you had one you at least would have one leg to stand on but you are legless.

The Pre-Trib theory was arrived at by man imposing his desire to avoid Tribulation on the Word of God. These same men ignore the clear teachings of Jesus and Paul as to the timing of the Lord's return. By doing so, they trash multiple CLEAR teachings and doctrines and twist scriptures into conforming to their dispensational view rather than just reading and understand the Plain Word of God.

I do believe in one dispensation view and it is taught by Paul.

Ephesians 1:
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

[SUP]12 [/SUP]That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

Again, one "gathering." Do you see Paul saying that "all things in Christ will be gathered in the fullness of time? There can't be two gatherings, one before the trib and one after. Since we know there is one after because this timing is clearly taught, there can't be one before because the time isn't full before.

Also there cannot be a Pre-Trib Rapture because the Lord cannot and will not leave heaven until AFTER "His enemies become His footstool." This is stated in multiple places: Psa 110:1, Mat 22:44, Mark 12:36, Luke 20:42-43, Acts 2:34-35, Heb 1:13:

"The Lord said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool."

We know that the Lord's enemies will NOT be made HIS footstool until AFTER the Tribulation so he can't be coming in the clouds and leaving God's right hand before then.

ChosenbyHim · Jul 23, 2013

PlainWord said:

Plain, stop putting this back to Darby. Darby did not create dispensationalism, I already did a post on that, several months back. You can see it here:

http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...l-bible-study-teaching-not-created-darby.html

Again, stop putting this back to Darby. And see what do the Scriptures say. There are clear dispensational distinctions in the Scriptures, and you have to acknowledge them as such, because if you don't, you are simply not being honest.

PlainWord said:

Well yeah I understand that we are to be careful of man's teachings that conflict with the word of God, but let me ask you Plain, does the main teaching of Dispensationalism conflict anywhere in the Scriptures?

The main teaching of Dispensational truth as found in the Bible is the internal method that God designed in His holy word for Bible Study.

PlainWord said:

Now what one needs to be aware of is hyper dispensationalism, that is what you have to definitely watch out for. Because hyper dispensationalists only believe and read Acts and the Pauline epistles. They believe that only the book of Acts and the Pauline epistles are only for them for today. Now while a lot of our Doctrine should come from the Pauline epistles, we still need to take heed to the whole counsel of God (prophets, apostles, Psalms, Gospels, epistles) we are to read and believe from Genesis 1:1 to Revelation 22:21. And we need to read them dispensationally, and we need to use right division of the Scriptures when reading and studying them (2 Timothy 2:15).

I think the reference to the Everlasting Gospel is simply a reference to the Gospel that will be in effect during the tribulation ( time of Jacob's trouble) and also in the Millennial Kingdom and literal reign of the Lord Jesus Christ.

What you need to understand Plain is this, today we are not preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom. We are preaching the Gospel of Grace, the Gospel of the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.

In the time of Jacob's trouble, the 144,000 Jews that are sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads will be preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom to all nations. Just as our Lord Jesus Christ prophesied in Matthew 24:14.

PlainWord said:

No Plain, the Gospel we preach today will not be the same that is preached in the time of Jacob's trouble. I already gave you Scriptural proof of that. I did not say one had to be a scholar to understand His word. But what I am saying Plain, is that one must study His word in order to get a deeper understanding of it. It does take study, and work, and right division.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. - 2 Timothy 2:15 (KJV)

Also, let me say this too, there are Bible believers who attend Bible believing churches that know more about the Bible and what it teaches than many of the so called "scholars" who come out of their Alexandrian seminaries. Why is that? Because most if not all seminaries in America today are teaching higher textual criticism where they are saying that the Bible is just another book, and that you can critique it and change it and amend its text. You see plain, the seminaries across this country are destroying young men and women's faith in the word of God, the Holy Bible. So instead of being taught the word of God, they are being taught to that there are errors in it, and so they end up becoming apostates. They deny the Bible. They don't learn to study the Scriptures and to trust that the Scriptures are the infallible word of God. Instead most of these Seminary graduates set up their own minds as their own final authority. And they sit in judgment over the word of God.

If you ever run into one of the "scholars" ask them what they think about street preaching, soul winning, and handing out Gospel Tracts. And just see what kind of response you get from them.

So believe me when I say that I am aware that one does not have to be a scholar to understand the Holy Scriptures, but one must still spend time in the word, in studying it, rightly dividing it, comparing Scripture with Scripture and depending on the Holy Spirit to guide them and give them understanding of the Scriptures.

PlainWord said:

Yes commandments were also given throughout the Pauline epistles and yes we keep our Lord's commandments which were the two He gave us in the Gospels.

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. - Mark 12:30-31 (KJV)

PlainWord said:

Yeah in that passage in Romans 7, Paul is talking about how the Law made sin exceeding sinful unto him. You see, presenting the 10 commandments (law) to the lost and showing them how they have broken it and offended God is the first necessary step to get the lost to realize and acknowledge that they are a sinner and that they need God's salvation. It is like the age of accountability. And that age will vary from one individual to the next, but when 4 year old commits a sin, it is not counted against him. Why? Where there is no law, there is no transgression. A 4 year old cannot discern between good and evil, he cannot discern between what is right and wrong. Can he sense that he did something wrong when his parents are upset and disappointed by a wrong action he committed? Sure. The child in a way can sense that something is not right, but he does not have a full understanding of good and evil. And he does not have the knowledge of the law of God.

13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. - Romans 4:13-16 (KJV)

8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. - Romans 7:8-10 (KJV)

Paul was once without the law, in other words, before he reached the age of accountability, sin was dead to him.

PlainWord said:

There is a change of how one is saved in the tribulation from how we are saved today. And I already shared with you the Scriptures to show you that.

Well I was not trying to get off topic here, but my point here Plain, is that if you do not rightly divide the Scriptures, then you are not going to understand the timing of the Rapture. The Issue of the timing of the Rapture becomes very clear when one begins to study the Bible literally and rightly divide it. Just like the issue of Eternal Security. In the Church Age, every true Born again Christian has Eternal Security. But in the time of Jacob's trouble, a tribulation saint does not have eternal security because WORKS are involved to be saved. They have to persevere and endure unto the end to be saved and that require works.

In the Church age, we are not saved by our works. But we are saved unto good works:

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. - Ephesians 2:8-13 (KJV)

We do good works because we are saved. Because of our new nature.

PlainWord · Jul 23, 2013

No, the main teaching is okay. For instance, we went from the Law to Grace. I agree with that. It is clearly taught and doesn't conflict with any scripture. The problem I have is when you or anyone try to use Dispensationalism to revise the clear intention of the Word. The Word doesn't change. It is the same today, tomorrow and forever.

No, with respect, you did NOT provide proof that the Gospel will change, not even close. Some things in the Bible are absolutes. When the Bible says,

"having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, [SUP]7 [/SUP]Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

it means what it says. EVERLASTING means LASTS FOREVER. This is an absolute. I'm sorry if it doesn't conform to your man-made doctrine. This passage alone totally destroys and annihilates ANY theory you have about there being a different Gospel for the end times because not only is the gospel everlasting, the context given is "the hour of judgment" which is end times. So, you don't have a new dispensation here regardless of who the father of the theory is, Darby or the Man on the Moon!!!!

Who is to say you are rightly dividing it? All you are doing is trashing the gospel in favor of a man-made doctrine. NEVER, EVER take a passage that isn't implicitly stating something and use it to over-rule a passage that does implicitly state something. This is not rightly dividing, it is wrongly dividing.

I cited a perfect example. We have Ephesians 2:8-9, which states emphatically,

[SUP]8 "[/SUP]For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

[SUP]9 [/SUP]Not of works, lest any man should boast"

This verse contains absolutes, BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED!! (It is) not of ourselves, it is a gift of God: (and) not of works. The subject of this passage is "SAVED" The 4 absolutes concerning salvation are:

BY GRACE
NOT OF OURSELVES
GIFT OF GOD
NOT OF WORKS

Unless you later have another passage where the Lord is giving CLEAR instruction that this is no longer the way to salvation, than you can't create a new path to salvation with new requirements. I agree a new condition was added in Rev, that you are Not to take the mark of the beast or worship his image, etc. Those are new "DON'TS" but the Lord did NOT add "WORKS" as a condition of salvation. There is no reason to have the requirements about not worshiping the Beast BEFORE the end times because the beast wasn't here to worship before this time.

You use Rev 14:12 to ADD a "works" requirement to salvation, which states this:

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus."

What you have here, as I said, is a rather ambiguous passage that doesn't mention a new way to salvation. It only mentions saints who have kept or are keeping commandments of God and faith to Jesus. There is nothing in this verse, or the preceding verses or the verses that follow that instruct us that there is anything about verse 12 that has changed the way to salvation or added a requirement of "works."

You spin this into a whole new element to salvation has been added - Works. From this you put those who will be in the tribulation into a whole new dispensation.

This pretty much sums it up Chosen. You claim to have "rightly divided the Word" so that you can create and install a Pre-Trib rapture where one isn't taught. What is clearly taught is a second coming where the dead in Christ arise and those who are alive and remain are caught up with the Lord which happens at the last trumpet, "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION" of those days!

Not true and you have not provided a passage that explicitly states this. First off, we are all going to be Tribulation Saints, those who are alive when it starts but aside from that, no passage teaches the work requirement or what specific works must be done. Tribulation Saints are told Not to do things, just as we are told Not to do things today.

The reason why those who make it through the Tribulation are saved is clear. Every eye will see and every ear will hear. Those that do not accept the Lord as savior are killed leaving those behind who believe and thus are saved. Again, I am not sure if this applies only to the Jew because of the audience but I suspect it would apply to everyone because if you aren't killed, you are saved by your faith and belief in Jesus otherwise you wouldn't have made it through.

I don't think either of us will ever convince the other they are wrong but it is still a good exercise for me and I enjoy it. Hopefully others reading our ramblings will learn something too.

PlainWord · Jul 23, 2013

One more thing Chosen,

Why are the 144,000 still on the earth and not Raptured?

We see in Rev 7:

[SUP]3 [/SUP]Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

[SUP]4 [/SUP]And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

The timing is AFTER the opening of the 6th seal. The Tribulation is underway, yet these 144,000 are still on earth. Don't tell me they are recent converts, unbelievers when the Tribulation started but came to Christ after the Tribulation started. We see above that they are SERVANTS OF GOD. We have nothing to suggest they didn't start out the Tribulation that way.

Now look at Rev 14:

[SUP]4 [/SUP]These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb

The 144,000 were firstfruits unto God and the Lamb. We looked at a passage awhile back that has Christ as the "firstfruits" 1 Cor 15:23 and we are given the order of those to be redeemed from earth here:

[SUP]23 [/SUP]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

So we have Christ, the firstfruits (Which include the 144,000) followed by "they that are Christ's at his coming." Oh no Chosen, another serious blow to the Pre-Trib rapture theory. How many more serious blows to this theory can it take???

BradC · Jul 23, 2013

1still_waters said:

Matthew 24 is prophecy from the mouth of Christ NOT for the church but rather for the Jews as it relates to the second coming of Christ the Messiah. This will be the time that the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached and not the gospel of Christ as we know it as the church. During this time of trouble there will be lots of confusion as to where Christ will appear and come a second time. The day or hour not known to anyone but the Father pertains to Christ coming back a second time. Jesus with his disciples said nothing and taught nothing about the mystery of the church and all that pertained to it. That came later through the apostles. The church is to be looking for his appearing in the clouds of the air where the dead in Christ is raised first and then those who remain alive being caught up together to forever be with the Lord. The second coming has nothing to do with the church being caught up in the clouds of the air. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as in heaven will finally begin with the second coming, the nations being judged, Satan will be bound and the 1,000 year reign of Christ will commence. There will still be unbelievers and those who will be brought into the kingdom during that time populating the earth and living their lives under a new rule and dominion. Then Satan will be loosed for a short time etc, etc.

PlainWord · Jul 23, 2013

BradC said:

Except these Jews were believing Jews and fathers of the church. If there was supposed to be a SECRET rapture of the church BEFORE the Tribulation, don't you think Jesus would have told these early Christians and church leaders, Jewish or not? Oops, so much for the validity of that statement.

Except that the concept of the church was already introduced to the disciples back in Matthew 16 & 18. Peter was one of the four disciples who asked Jesus about the end times and the sign of his coming.

Mark 13:

[SUP]3[/SUP]Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, [SUP]4 [/SUP]“Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?”

Matthew 16:

[SUP]18 [/SUP]And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Matthew 18:

[SUP]17 [/SUP]And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

Since Jesus clearly announced He was building his church on the ROCK, PETER back in Chapter 16, BEFORE Peter asked the Lord in Matthew 24. "...And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” again, don't you think it would be a little disingenuous for the Lord to NOT have come clean about this Rapture of the Church? After all, a Rapture of the church prior to the Tribulation would be one heck of a sign of the pending Tribulation, don't you think?

There is NO RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION. It is clearly a lie. If I were Satan and I wanted people to believe in me as the Messiah instead of the real Messiah, what would I do? I know, teach dispensationalism and a Pre-Trib Rapture. That way when there is no rapture and the really bad stuff starts the church will be discredited and I get to be the first "Christ" on the scene.

Sorry if I am coming across a little arrogantly, it is just that I was fed this Pre-Trib Rapture lie for 30 years before I finally realized it was just another Santa Claus except this one has many horrible consequences for millions of lives and souls.

Pre Trib Rapture Moment 13: What are Post Tribbers afraid of?

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BradC

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Senior Member