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GRA
Guest
Or possibly, 'this generation' IS actually referring to the "current generation" at the time this was originally written IF the word 'fulfilled' is taken to mean 'begin to come to pass':
The word 'fulfilled' in Matthew 24:34 and the words 'be done' in Mark 13:30 are this same word in the Greek.And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. ~ Revelation 22:6
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Consider:
Strong's G1096 for "come to pass" in Revelation 1:1
1) to become, i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being
2) to become, i.e. to come to pass, happen a) of events
3) to arise, appear in history, come upon the stage a) of men appearing in public
4) to be made, finished a) of miracles, to be performed, wrought
5) to become, be made
When I cannot find a specific definition tied to a particular usage - I generally use the first one, which is usually the most common usage. And, since most of these definitions carry with it the idea of "beginning and continuing" anyway -- I am going to suggest that the true "sense and tense" of the phrase 'Must Shortly Come To Pass' actually means "Must Shortly Begin To Come To Pass"...
And - yes - the phrase "shortly come to pass" in Revelation 1:1 and the phrase "shortly be done" in Revelation 22:6 are the same in the Greek.
"Something to think about..."
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GRA
Guest
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Bistabuster
Guest
Would you agree that Matt 24 is in chronological order? I mean organized as if I'm telling you my life story?Or possibly, 'this generation' IS actually referring to the "current generation" at the time this was originally written IF the word 'fulfilled' is taken to mean 'begin to come to pass':
The word 'fulfilled' in Matthew 24:34 and the words 'be done' in Mark 13:30 are this same word in the Greek.
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GRA
Guest
The little table after the big table shows [what I believe is] the chronology of the events discussed in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
Please see post #10 & #11 -- or post #32.
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Bistabuster
Guest
The little table after the big table shows [what I believe is] the chronology of the events discussed in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21.
Please see post #10 & #11 -- or post #32.
Thanks. I'll look it over again. I didn't study it very carefully the first time because I was tired. I'll see if I can make some sense in it.
Talk to you later!
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GRA
Guest
"Please feel free to try again after enough time has passed...""Thanks anyway..."
( shameless...
tsk-tsk )
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GRA
Guest
Does this make sense to you? Do you agree with the above statement?'the times of the Gentiles' began when 'the times of the Jews' ended - at the end of the 70 weeks:
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. ~ Daniel 9:24
"Thought for the day..."
Do you believe that it is a valid premise that 'the times of the Gentiles' would begin when 'the times of the Jews' ended?
Otherwise...
What - specifically - marks the start of 'the times of the Gentiles'?
What - specifically - marks the end of 'the times of the Gentiles'?
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Widdekind
Guest
OD = Destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD
pre-70 AD = "time of Jews"
post-70 AD = "time of gentiles"
i.e. the time when Jerusalem was under the control of non-Jews = 70 AD to 1948 AD (evidently)
simplistically interpreted, the "time of gentiles" has been over for several generations; a new "time" then began
pre-70 AD = "time of Jews"
post-70 AD = "time of gentiles"
i.e. the time when Jerusalem was under the control of non-Jews = 70 AD to 1948 AD (evidently)
simplistically interpreted, the "time of gentiles" has been over for several generations; a new "time" then began
Does this make sense to you? Do you agree with the above statement?
Do you believe that it is a valid premise that 'the times of the Gentiles' would begin when 'the times of the Jews' ended?
Otherwise...
What - specifically - marks the start of 'the times of the Gentiles'?
What - specifically - marks the end of 'the times of the Gentiles'?
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GRA
Guest
I disagree.
That is -- I do not believe that the events of 70 A.D. - nor the "control" of Jerusalem - define the mark in time that is the end of 'the times of the Jews' or the start of 'the times of the Gentiles'...
I believe:
~ What happened in 70 A.D. is just part of the "aftermath" of the end of what was prophesied in Daniel 9:24.
~ The end of the 70 weeks - as declared by God in Daniel 9:24 - marks the end of 'the times of the Jews'.
~ The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was simply "carried out" during 'the times of the Gentiles' - which had already begun - at the end of the 70 weeks -- the mark in time of which God had declared.
How far back in time have the Jews been scattered across many nations while gentiles have "controlled" Jerusalem? And, long before the end of what was prophesied in Daniel 9:24...???
It seems to me that 'the times of the Jews' and 'the times of the Gentiles' are defined by God in terms of His focus on who He is "dealing with" in the "big picture" of His plan for humanity. For a long time He "dealt with" the Jews ( the nation of Israel - which is really what is at the center of this issue ) - based on the old covenant. Then, He declared that He would end that ( Daniel 9:24 ). Then, He did that while bringing in the new covenant.
( 'the times of the Jews' => "the times wherein God is dealing with the nation of Israel" )
"The end of the 70 weeks pre-dates the 70 A.D. events. That is perfectly O.K. There are not that many years between them, anyway..."
However - I do believe that the mark in time that defines these terms is the end of the 70 weeks.
We are close to being on the same page - with the exception of a handful of years, and the fact that - because of "the way I see it" - I do not believe that 'the times of the Gentiles' ended in 1948 / 1967.
I believe that there is a "correlation and connection" between 'the times of the Gentiles' and the 'fulness of the Gentiles' ( Romans 11:25 ).
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Widdekind
Guest
the Crucifixion = end of 69th week = 30 AD
ergo, the 70th week began in 30/31 AD...
the 70th "seven" (translated literally) = 30-37 AD ??
what if the 70th "seven" = 7 decades = 30-100 AD, in the "half of which" sacrifices are ended = 66 AD, at the beginning of the Jewish war, when the Jews stopped sacrificing for the emperor ?
i perceive you to be in error -- Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, specifically attributes Dan 9 --> destruction of Jerusalem (Luke 21) = 70 AD. All of the "wars" and "desolations" in Dan 9 = Jewish war (66-73 AD), described by Josephus.
i perceive, that Scripture is ambiguous enough, to allow anyone who wants to say otherwise, to say otherwise. But, if you accept, that Jesus = Christ = "knows what's up"; then Jesus is your guide, and Dan 9 --> 70 AD, by Divine Fiat. Jesus = NT >> OT; if Jesus The Messiah ripped out Dan 9, and applied it to the sinking of the Titanic, then by Divine Fiat, Dan 9 would so apply.
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before end 70th week = OT = time of Jews
after end of 70th week = NT = time of gentiles
time of gentiles continues until fulness of gentiles enter into Church = end of partial hardening of Jews (Rom 11)
so, you're saying, that the time of gentiles continues, until Jews too acknowledge Jesus was The Messiah ?
ergo, the 70th week began in 30/31 AD...
the 70th "seven" (translated literally) = 30-37 AD ??
what if the 70th "seven" = 7 decades = 30-100 AD, in the "half of which" sacrifices are ended = 66 AD, at the beginning of the Jewish war, when the Jews stopped sacrificing for the emperor ?
i perceive you to be in error -- Jesus, in the Olivet Discourse, specifically attributes Dan 9 --> destruction of Jerusalem (Luke 21) = 70 AD. All of the "wars" and "desolations" in Dan 9 = Jewish war (66-73 AD), described by Josephus.
i perceive, that Scripture is ambiguous enough, to allow anyone who wants to say otherwise, to say otherwise. But, if you accept, that Jesus = Christ = "knows what's up"; then Jesus is your guide, and Dan 9 --> 70 AD, by Divine Fiat. Jesus = NT >> OT; if Jesus The Messiah ripped out Dan 9, and applied it to the sinking of the Titanic, then by Divine Fiat, Dan 9 would so apply.
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before end 70th week = OT = time of Jews
after end of 70th week = NT = time of gentiles
time of gentiles continues until fulness of gentiles enter into Church = end of partial hardening of Jews (Rom 11)
so, you're saying, that the time of gentiles continues, until Jews too acknowledge Jesus was The Messiah ?
~ What happened in 70 A.D. is just part of the "aftermath" of the end of what was prophesied in Daniel 9:24.
~ The end of the 70 weeks ... marks the end of 'the times of the Jews'.
~ The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. was simply "carried out" during 'the times of the Gentiles' - which had already begun - at the end of the 70 weeks -- the mark in time of which God had declared.
It seems to me that 'the times of the Jews' and 'the times of the Gentiles' are defined by God in terms of His focus on who He is "dealing with" in the "big picture" of His plan for humanity. For a long time He "dealt with" the Jews ( the nation of Israel - which is really what is at the center of this issue ) - based on the old covenant. Then, He declared that He would end that ( Daniel 9:24 ). Then, He did that while bringing in the new covenant.
( 'the times of the Jews' => "the times wherein God is dealing with the nation of Israel" )
"The end of the 70 weeks pre-dates the 70 A.D. events. That is perfectly O.K. There are not that many years between them, anyway..."
However - I do believe that the mark in time that defines these terms is the end of the 70 weeks.
I believe that there is a "correlation and connection" between 'the times of the Gentiles' and the 'fulness of the Gentiles' ( Romans 11:25 ).
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GRA
Guest
Yes!
Also:
70 weeks => 70 x [7 years]; all weeks are identically the same amount of time; each week is 7 years
Crucifixion => middle of 70th week
I will have to try to address the rest later - I do not have time now...
He's a Preterist which is the weakest of all the post time views. Since the Day of the Lord is AFTER the Great Tribulation which is followed by the 1,000 millennial reign of Christ, and we are now nearly 2,000 years after the Crucifixion, the Preterits view must be rejected.
GRA and others. forgive me because I am new to this site and this thread. I have been reading each post with interest. The Olivet Discourse is one of my favorite passages and I have studied it and Revelation for many years. My thoughts and conclusions are quite different from most believers/teachings of this day. I have different views then some presented here. However, I agree with GRA and others in stating emphatically that the "Rapture" is AFTER the Tribulation.
As for timing. I too have put together a similar chart and attempted to tie mine into the Revelation timeline. I am still unclear on several things and that's why I am here - to share my views and learn from all of you. These can be contentious topics so let's all remember to love each other in Christ.
The Classical teaching regarding the 70 weeks of Daniel is that the first 69 weeks, 490 years have lapsed, ending with the Crucifixion of Christ. In terms of timing of the crucifixion, it was on April 3, 0033. Please see video called "Star of Bethlehem." If any disagree, you won't after seeing this. Christ was 35 not 33. The scriptures merely state that he was ABOUT 30 when he entered the ministry. Sorry, I digress...
I believe some of the 7 seals have been opened. We are either at seal 3 or seal 5. I believe the Great Tribulation starts with the opening of the 6th seal. (if it started sooner, the saints would not be complaining at seal 5, plus the people of the earth refer to the events as "The Wrath of the Lamb." So, does this mean the Abomination of Desolation starts at the same time? I had never considered that before, so thanks to all - I do think it possible. Rev 6:15 certainly has people in the mountains but clearly they aren't all Christian.
As for the time of the Gentiles. It started at Pentecost, after the rejection of Christ by the Jews. It will continue until the Day of the Lord. See Romans 11. We (Christian Gentiles, are grafted in).
I believe we are in a spiritual war that is heating up dramatically. It really started in a fury in the 1800s when many false religions and doctrines began, Mormans, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness, Christian Science and of course John Darby - the father of the Pre Trib Rapture lie. During this time (1860) we also have Darwin coming out with his HUGE lie. Why so much satanic activity? I believe it is because the Lamb opened the first seal with Napoleon.
As for timing. I too have put together a similar chart and attempted to tie mine into the Revelation timeline. I am still unclear on several things and that's why I am here - to share my views and learn from all of you. These can be contentious topics so let's all remember to love each other in Christ.
The Classical teaching regarding the 70 weeks of Daniel is that the first 69 weeks, 490 years have lapsed, ending with the Crucifixion of Christ. In terms of timing of the crucifixion, it was on April 3, 0033. Please see video called "Star of Bethlehem." If any disagree, you won't after seeing this. Christ was 35 not 33. The scriptures merely state that he was ABOUT 30 when he entered the ministry. Sorry, I digress...
I believe some of the 7 seals have been opened. We are either at seal 3 or seal 5. I believe the Great Tribulation starts with the opening of the 6th seal. (if it started sooner, the saints would not be complaining at seal 5, plus the people of the earth refer to the events as "The Wrath of the Lamb." So, does this mean the Abomination of Desolation starts at the same time? I had never considered that before, so thanks to all - I do think it possible. Rev 6:15 certainly has people in the mountains but clearly they aren't all Christian.
As for the time of the Gentiles. It started at Pentecost, after the rejection of Christ by the Jews. It will continue until the Day of the Lord. See Romans 11. We (Christian Gentiles, are grafted in).
I believe we are in a spiritual war that is heating up dramatically. It really started in a fury in the 1800s when many false religions and doctrines began, Mormans, Latter Day Saints, Jehovah Witness, Christian Science and of course John Darby - the father of the Pre Trib Rapture lie. During this time (1860) we also have Darwin coming out with his HUGE lie. Why so much satanic activity? I believe it is because the Lamb opened the first seal with Napoleon.
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Widdekind
Guest
stop -- the Messiah is "cut off after the [7+62=]69th week"
later, sacrifices stop in the middle of the 70th "seven"
Jesus was Crucified, at the same time as Passover lambs were being slaughtered in the temple... sacrifices had not stopped, before the Crucifixion... sacrifices stopped, when the temple was destroyed, in the middle of the 70th seven, after the Crucifixion...
yes?
70 AD = Judgement vs. Jerusalem
1000 years = Christian empire of Byzantium
today = End Times
the "Day of the Lord" = Judgement, not some physical second coming of Jesus from the sky.
John the Baptist came with the Spirit of Elijah (Matt 11). John the Baptist satisfied the Prophesied "Second Coming of Elijah". So, the "Second Coming of Jesus" did not have to be the same physical guy from Galilee. Christian emperor Constantine came with the conquering Spirit of Christ, and converted the Roman empire from paganism to the Church, in the 4th century AD. The 2C = Constantine (individually) = Church in political-power (collectively) = Rev 19 = 4th century AD.
My dear friend, please read the Word as it is written taking it most literally when this is the way it was intended to be read. The Day of the Lord is a literal day and happens immediately after the tribulation. Take Christ's Word for it, not mine.
Was Satan locked up during the Byzantium years or was their plenty of death and wars?
Was Christ ruling with a Rod of Iron for 1,000 years during that time?
Was there a Great Tribulation or any period in history, other than the Flood, where more than 2/3 of the world's population were killed?
Until recently, was there any nation, or groups of nations, capable of mounting a 200 million man army?
When were the lions lying with the lambs?
Common. The Tribulation hasn't started yet. When it does, we will all know because it will start with an incredible loss of life at the 6th seal.
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Widdekind
Guest
first, you're engaging in circular (non-)reasoning. For, you're assuming that Rev is about "the earth" (whereas i perceive Rev to be about "the land" = "the [Holy] Land" = Judaea).
In the Jewish war, 1/3 of the Jewish population was killed. So, if Rev is about "the land" = Judaea, then, yes, Rev was fulfilled, in 70 AD, practically literally. My interpretation is self-consistent, Rev is about "the land" = Judaea, in the Judgement of 70 AD. i would interpret the "100-200 million" of Rev 9 symbolically, since the number applies to locust Demon cavalry, which imagery is also seemingly symbolic -- i'd interpret Rev 9, "200 million locust Demons" = Legions & Legions of Roman soldiers.
the Preterist perspective is a plausible interpretation
In the Jewish war, 1/3 of the Jewish population was killed. So, if Rev is about "the land" = Judaea, then, yes, Rev was fulfilled, in 70 AD, practically literally. My interpretation is self-consistent, Rev is about "the land" = Judaea, in the Judgement of 70 AD. i would interpret the "100-200 million" of Rev 9 symbolically, since the number applies to locust Demon cavalry, which imagery is also seemingly symbolic -- i'd interpret Rev 9, "200 million locust Demons" = Legions & Legions of Roman soldiers.
the Preterist perspective is a plausible interpretation
I do believe that many prophesies are dual. There is no doubt that there was an Abomination in the Temple where idols were set up. But this does not mean it can't and won't happen again. Even if your explanation about the land is true and if the 200 million horsemen are symbolic it doesn't explain away that we have NOT had 1,000 years of peace where Christ ruled on this earth and where HIS believers have been given glorified bodies and reign beside Him. Rev 20:4.
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GRA
Guest
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mikesahil
Guest
Dear Friend in Christ,
Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!I have been going through the studies at your website, and I am deeply inspired with all of the teachings and studies thereon like Bible studies,sermons, children's sermons and other teaching materials on our Web site.This is such wonderful studies you have arranged for all the nations, in the long run of your service for the nations of the all the world.I am from Islamic Republic of Pakistan where it is difficult to have Radio and TV channel for preaching purposes.They would not allow us to do that here the Satan has real strong hold over everything.
I often say that we re living in the land of the enemy.Friend, I humbly request you to expand your outreach your program in Urdu and Punjabi language. Urdu is the language spoken and understood by more than one sixth of the total population of the world.
Urdu is spokenin Pakistan, India, Nepal, Afghanistan and also in Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran and others.
I would ask you to pray and share it among the brethren. I would offer my services for being translator, recorder and distribution/sales. I pray that your consideration will have His mark over your decision. May God bless you abundantly! May His perfect will be done!Grace and Peace be with you, all brethrens.
Yours brother in Christ,
Michael
Pakistan
sahilmichael@yahoo.com
Greetings in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ!I have been going through the studies at your website, and I am deeply inspired with all of the teachings and studies thereon like Bible studies,sermons, children's sermons and other teaching materials on our Web site.This is such wonderful studies you have arranged for all the nations, in the long run of your service for the nations of the all the world.I am from Islamic Republic of Pakistan where it is difficult to have Radio and TV channel for preaching purposes.They would not allow us to do that here the Satan has real strong hold over everything.
I often say that we re living in the land of the enemy.Friend, I humbly request you to expand your outreach your program in Urdu and Punjabi language. Urdu is the language spoken and understood by more than one sixth of the total population of the world.
Urdu is spokenin Pakistan, India, Nepal, Afghanistan and also in Indonesia, Malaysia, Iran and others.
I would ask you to pray and share it among the brethren. I would offer my services for being translator, recorder and distribution/sales. I pray that your consideration will have His mark over your decision. May God bless you abundantly! May His perfect will be done!Grace and Peace be with you, all brethrens.
Yours brother in Christ,
Michael
Pakistan
sahilmichael@yahoo.com