Speaking in tongues

[SarahM777]

To answer your other question. Spiritual gifts are from God. There is a simple way to know whether or not what someone is doing is under the influence of the Holy Spirit or not. Note the Scripture:
1 Corinthians 14:26[SUP]26[/SUP] How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1 Corinthians 14:40[SUP]40[/SUP] Let all things be done decently and in order.
1 Corinthians 16:14[SUP]14[/SUP] Let all your things be done with charity.

If any manifestation does not edify or spiritually build up the church, is not decent or in order, is not done in love, it is not of God.

I have no problem with the fact that God can do way more then what we can imagine or think of. If He wanted to He could turn this world into a giant peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Where some make it a bit fuzzy is with some of these things. Paul is the only one to speak about tongues,and only in 1 Corinthians. Peter,James,and John do not mention them at all. James at the same time talks about seeking healing,he tells us to do what? He tells us to go before the elders,be anoited with oil and pray the prayer of faith. So on the surface it already appears that things are changing. No longer is it by command in the name of Jesus. So why does James say this now?

Why is there no other mention of tongues in any other Epistle? Why does it appear that speaking in other languages has already ended after Acts 19? Luke never records again that believers when receiving the Holy Spirit start speaking in other languages and that is over about a seven year period.

Now taking a look at 1 Corinthians 13

13 If I speak in the tongues[SUP][a][/SUP] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[SUP][b][/SUP] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking,it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

[SUP]Now can we agree that Paul is saying they will end? The question comes as to when. But then Paul goes on to say this[/SUP]
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Now we know that those three will continue on till Jesus comes back. But Paul is very specific in that there are ONLY THREE that remain,and that is in the PRESENT tense. So the question is why did Paul say before that,those things would pass but that only THREE remain? He doesn't say any of the rest remain. So why does he say that? And we also need to remember that 1 Corinthians was one of the first epistles.

 

[zone]

1 CORINTHIANS 13:8–13 AND THE CESSATION OF MIRACULOUS GIFTS

by R. Bruce Compton

INTRODUCTION

Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part; 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. 11When I was a child, I used to speak as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I shall know fully just as I also have been fully known. 13But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love (1 Cor 13:8–13).2

As recent publications indicate, the debate over the present versus the future cessation of miraculous gifts continues unabated.3

Central to this debate has been Paul’s discussion of prophecy, tongues, and knowledge in 1 Corinthians 13:8–13. The two key questions addressed in this passage are the interpretation of “the perfect” in 13:10 and the point at which prophecy, tongues, and knowledge cease.

An interpretation that has enjoyed support over the years is that “the perfect” refers to the New Testament canon and that miraculous gifts ceased with the closing of the canon at the end of the first century.4

However, this interpretation has come under fire by representatives from both sides of the cessation issue. As one advocate for future cessation has declared, “Evidence from the context that ‘the perfect’ refers to the second coming, together with the impossibility that Paul could have expected the Corinthian Christians to think he meant the canon, has left few evangelical scholars who continue to use this text to support a [present] cessation of the gifts.”5

Such criticisms notwithstanding, the purpose of this article is to reexamine the exegetical evidence from 1 Corinthians 13:8–13 and to defend the above interpretation, namely, that “the perfect” in 13:10 refers to the completed New Testament canon and that with the closing of the canon miraculous gifts ceased. To do this, the various views on the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:10 are surveyed to highlight the significant interpretive issues in the overall debate. Following this, the verses within the immediate context are examined in sequence in order to establish a proper interpretation of the debated constructions and to demonstrate the validity of the canon view....

http://www.dbts.edu/journals/2004/Compton.pdf > click PDF


know your footnotes, people

 

[inge]

"
I like to search the Bible like a good Berean. Oh yes I know people can use Bible-verses their own way and twist the meaning. But that is why I mentioned before not to just take one verse. 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I am going to mention here in 3 points what I do see in your comment if I do quote/understand something wrong let me know.
This is why you think the gifts of the Spirit are not for our time:

• The gifts did cease with Paul because he did heal less at the end of his life.

this is not entirely true. in fact we see Paul not teaching on the gifts, and unable to heal and far less focus on the gifts nearer the end of his ministry.

It is ceased with him? Lets assume it is true. When it ceases with Paul (he could heal less) it won't be a reason to believe it was the same with Peter too or John. No prove for that. What isn't mentioned cannot be put in the Bible. I don't add or take off.

• The gifts will cease because Paul mentions this.

we can trust the scriptures. Paul said the temporary gifts would cease, and they did.
i don't know why people are offended by this.

I think you refer than to the great poem in the Corinth letter? (If not let me know what other verse.)

Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1 Cor 13:8-10​

First of all did it say prophecy shall cease? No. Second if it still means the same...like failing is a sort of ceasing (if one says so) so than prophecy, tongues are ceasing and.... than knowledge is done too...nowadays. Hmmm I don't think so.

The perfect thing to come is not our time, I see no perfection right now... What is the perfection Paul talks about in verse 10? But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

I have searched on ceasing further in the Bible...but sorry, I could find no other references.

• The Bible testifies of periods.

The Bible testifies of three major periods of miraculous activity by God:
Exodus & Moses
Elijah and Elisha
Jesus & The Apostles.

You forget a period. The period after Jesus & the Apostles. These days are the last days until Jesus will return someday. Therefore the new testament often mentions this are the last days but also, in the last days...will come. (so present and future).

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;Hebr 2:1
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, 2Pet.3:3​

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:8​

I doubt that Jesus would say: uttermost part of the world thinking Peter or Paul would go into the bush-bush of Brazil...as happens nowadays. Jesus mentions it in one sentence the apostles and our time.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. Act 2:39​

What promise?

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2:38​

And with the Holy Ghost we receive gifts (as mentioned in the Bible) we show fruits and we walk in the Spirit. When someone says that gifts of the Spirit are not for now anymore....how can one be sure about that? Why only the gifts, why not fruits and walking also? Why exactly that part? Why all the explanations from Paul on how to use the gifts?

Jesus did not believe in periods either.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Math 5:18
​

De law is still applicable to persons whom do not follow the 'law of the Spirit'. (Rom 8:4,5) "

 

[Messenger_T]

What gifts specifically have ceased?

 

[Messenger_T]

So I guess I am asking if the gifts have been done away with then we still have knowledge?

Prophecy has been done away with?

That in 1 Cor 13 is not talking about an absence as ''NO MORE'' it is talking about things that will not happen as frequently...

that even though these things may cease...LOVE never will.

 

[Stephen63]

Now we know that those three will continue on till Jesus comes back. But Paul is very specific in that there are ONLY THREE that remain,and that is in the PRESENT tense. So the question is why did Paul say before that,those things would pass but that only THREE remain? He doesn't say any of the rest remain. So why does he say that? And we also need to remember that 1 Corinthians was one of the first epistles.

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 [SUP]8 [/SUP]Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. [SUP]10 [/SUP]But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

This I believe is the cessationist core Scripture that the gifts are gone. As a matter of fact, it's the only one. In its true context, it is actually the core Scripture that these virtues will continue until we reach our destination.

Adam Clarke's commentary
But when that which is perfect—The state of eternal blessedness; then that which is in part—that which is imperfect, shall be done away; the imperfect as well as the probationary state shall cease for ever.

Barnes commentary
The knowledge which we now have is valuable, as the gift of prophecy and the power of speaking foreign languages is valuable, but it will be lost in the brighter visions of the world above." That this is the sense is evident from what Paul says in illustration of the sentiment in 1 Corinthians 13:9,10. Now we know in part. What we deem ourselves acquainted with, we imperfectly understand. There are many obscurities and many difficulties. But in the future world we shall know distinctly and clearly, (1 Corinthians 13:12) and then the knowledge which we now possess will appear so dim and obscure, that it will seem to have vanished away and disappeared.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary
What Paul meant when he referred to the coming of perfection is the subject of considerable debate. One suggestion is that perfection described the completion of the New Testament. But verse 12 makes that interpretation unlikely. A few have suggested that this state of perfection will not be reached until the new heavens and new earth are established. Another point of view understands perfection to describe the state of the church when God’s program for it is consummated at the coming of Christ. There is much to commend this view, including the natural accord it enjoys with the illustration of growth and maturity which Paul used in the following verses.

Matthew Henry's Commentary
I. From its longer continuance and duration: Charity never faileth. It is a permanent and perpetual grace, lasting as eternity; whereas the extraordinary gifts on which the Corinthians valued themselves were of short continuance. They were only to edify the church on earth, and that but for a time, not during its whole continuance in this world; but in heaven would be all superseded, which yet is the very seat and element of love. Prophecy must fail, that is, either the prediction of things to come (which is its most common sense) or the interpretation of scripture by immediate inspiration. Tongues will cease, that is, the miraculous power of speaking languages without learning them. There will be but one language in heaven. There is no confusion of tongues in the region of perfect tranquility. And knowledge will vanish away. Not that, in the perfect state above, holy and happy souls shall be unknowing, ignorant: it is a very poor happiness that can consist with utter ignorance. The apostle is plainly speaking of miraculous gifts, and therefore of knowledge to be had out of the common way (see ch. 14:6), a knowledge of mysteries supernaturally communicated. Such knowledge was to vanish away. Some indeed understand it of common knowledge acquired by instruction, taught and learnt. This way of knowing is to vanish away, though the knowledge itself, once acquired, will not be lost. But it is plain that the apostle is here setting the grace of charity in opposition to supernatural gifts. And it is more valuable, because more durable; it shall last, when they shall be no more; it shall enter into heaven, where they will have no place, because they will be of no use, though, in a sense, even our common knowledge may be said to cease in heaven, by reason of the improvement that will then be made in it. The light of a candle is perfectly obscured by the sun shining in its strength.

II. He hints that these gifts are adapted only to a state of imperfection: We know in part, and we prophesy in part, v. 9. Our best knowledge and our greatest abilities are at present like our condition, narrow and temporary. Even the knowledge they had by inspiration was but in part. How little a portion of God, and the unseen world, was heard even by apostles and inspired men! How much short do others come of them! But these gifts were fitted to the present imperfect state of the church, valuable in themselves, but not to be compared with charity, because they were to vanish with the imperfections of the church, nay, and long before, whereas charity was to last for ever.

III. He takes occasion hence to show how much better it will be with the church hereafter than it can be here. A state of perfection is in view (v. 10): When that which is perfect shall come, then that which is in part shall be done away. When the end is once attained, the means will of course be abolished. There will be no need of tongues, and prophecy, and inspired knowledge, in a future life, because then the church will be in a state of perfection, complete both in knowledge and holiness. God will be known then clearly, and in a manner by intuition, and as perfectly as the capacity of glorified minds will allow; not by such transient glimpses, and little portions, as here.

The Preacher's Outline and Sermon Bible
2. Love is perfect and complete. We know nothing perfectly, and we can proclaim and predict the truth only with partial certainty. No person knows all the truth. However, a day of perfection is coming, and when it comes, only that which is perfect will stand and endure.
The point is this: love is perfect; therefore, love shall endure and be the primary trait between believers in eternity. Therefore, love is far superior to the gifts.

Adult Questions for LESSONmaker

Explore It

1. What makes speaking in tongues, faith, generosity, and even martyrdom worthless? (13:1-3)
2. How could a person use spiritual gifts in a useless manner? (13:1-3)
3. *What do we gain if we don’t have love? (13:3)
4. Why is love important? (13:3)
5. *What qualities does love have? (13:4-8)
6. Why will prophecy, tongues, and knowledge pass away? (13:8-9)
7. How will we be different when we see Christ? (13:10-12)

The History of the Christian Church
Love to God and to the brethren is no mere sentiment, but an active power, and manifests itself in the keeping of God’s commandments.Here again John and Paul meet in the idea of love, as the highest of the Christian graces which abides forever when faith shall have passed into sight, and hope into fruition.



1 Corinthians 13:12 [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

Adam Clark's commentary
The word αινιγματι, which we render darkly, will help us to the true meaning of the place. The following is Mr. Parkhurst's definition of the term and of the thing: "Αινιγμα, from ηνιγμαι, the perfect passive of ισυιττω, to hint, intimate, signify with some degree of obscurity; an enigma, in which one thing answers or stands in correspondence to, or as the representative of, another, which is in some respects similar to it; occurs 1 Corinthians 13:12: Now—in this life, we see by means of a mirror reflecting the images of heavenly and spiritual things, εν αινιγματι, in an enigmatical manner, invisible things being represented by visible, spiritual by natural, eternal by temporal; but then—in the eternal world, face to face, every thing being seen in itself, and not by means of a representative or similitude."
Now I know in part—Though I have an immediate revelation from God concerning his great design in the dispensation of the Gospel, yet there are lengths, breadths, depths, and heights of this design, which even that revelation has not discovered; nor can they be known and apprehended in the present imperfect state. Eternity alone can unfold the whole scheme of the Gospel.

Barne's Notes on the New Testament
Verse 12. For now we see through a glass. Paul here makes use of another illustration to show the imperfection of our knowledge here. Compared with what it will be in the future world, it is like the imperfect view of an object which we have in looking through an obscure and opaque medium, compared with the view which we have when we look at it "face to face."

Preachers Outline and Sermon Bible
4. Love is being face to face with God—a perfect consciousness and knowledge of God. Our present relationship with the Lord is comparable to the reflection we see through a dark mirror. We can faintly see the figure, but it is not fully distinct nor clear. Therefore, we only see God and the truth in part and we only know God and the truth in part. However, the day is coming when we shall know God even as He knows us—perfectly.
⇒ When is that day coming? The day love is perfected between God and man.
⇒ What will bring the day about? Love—God's perfect love for man.
It is love that will be perfected and that will bring the day of perfection to reality for man. It is love that will bring us into a face to face relationship with God and into a perfect knowledge of truth. Therefore, love is far superior to the spiritual gifts.

All these verses are saying is that God's love is the supreme virtue and will be the only virtue still within the believer when we reach our heavenly home.

 

[SarahM777]

All these verses are saying is that God's love is the supreme virtue and will be the only virtue still within the believer when we reach our heavenly home.

That's all well and good but don't they leave this out? (Which is part of the quote that I asked about) So here it is again within the context of what I asked.

I have no problem with the fact that God can do way more then what we can imagine or think of. If He wanted to He could turn this world into a giant peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Where some make it a bit fuzzy is with some of these things. Paul is the only one to speak about tongues,and only in 1 Corinthians. Peter,James,and John do not mention them at all. James at the same time talks about seeking healing,he tells us to do what? He tells us to go before the elders,be anoited with oil and pray the prayer of faith. So on the surface it already appears that things are changing. No longer is it by command in the name of Jesus. So why does James say this now?

Why is there no other mention of tongues in any other Epistle? Why does it appear that speaking in other languages has already ended after Acts 19? Luke never records again that believers when receiving the Holy Spirit start speaking in other languages and that is over about a seven year period?

Now taking a look at 1 Corinthians 13

13 If I speak in the tongues[SUP][a][/SUP] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. [SUP]2 [/SUP]If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. [SUP]3 [/SUP]If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[SUP][b][/SUP] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. [SUP]5 [/SUP]It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking,it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. [SUP]7 [/SUP]It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. [SUP]9 [/SUP]For we know in part and we prophesy in part, [SUP]10 [/SUP]but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. [SUP]11 [/SUP]When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

[SUP]Now can we agree that Paul is saying they will end? The question comes as to when. But then Paul goes on to say this[/SUP]
[SUP]
13 [/SUP]And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Now we know that those three will continue on till Jesus comes back. But Paul is very specific in that there are ONLY THREE that remain,and that is in the PRESENT tense. So the question is why did Paul say before that,those things would pass but that only THREE remain? He doesn't say any of the rest remain. So why does he say that? And we also need to remember that 1 Corinthians was one of the first epistles.

 

[Stephen63]

When Paul writes to the churches, he writes to them about their needs and their problems. The reason so much was written about tongues in the Corinthian church was because it was abused above all else. If they had not had the problem, it would've never been mentioned. Also, the book of Acts was written around 60-66 A.D., approximately 10 years after 1Corinthians

 

[Stephen63]

That's all well and good but don't they leave this out? (Which is part of the quote that I asked about) So here it is again within the context of what I asked.

You say that's all well and good, but do you realize that's the only cessationist Scripture to prove their beliefs, and it has been twisted to do it? Since this one is disproven, they are left with none. I always thought if you had a lot of Scripture to back your beliefs that that was a good thing. I get the impression to some it makes no difference. We are told to study to show ourselves approved. How can we be approved if we have nothing to prove it? I have been on here for four years, and I've yet to find one cessationist that can prove their beliefs with actual Scripture. Mostly what I hear is church history, but church history has a lot of sin and wickedness in it. The absence of anything in the church's history doesn't prove Jack. When you read about all the fighting, wars and denominational splits, why would you want to use it?

 

[SarahM777]

When Paul writes to the churches, he writes to them about their needs and their problems. The reason so much was written about tongues in the Corinthian church was because it was abused above all else. If they had not had the problem, it would've never been mentioned. Also, the book of Acts was written around 60-66 A.D., approximately 10 years after 1Corinthians

No problem there,but it still doesn't address this

I have no problem with the fact that God can do way more then what we can imagine or think of. If He wanted to He could turn this world into a giant peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Where some make it a bit fuzzy is with some of these things. Paul is the only one to speak about tongues,and only in 1 Corinthians. Peter,James,and John do not mention them at all. James at the same time talks about seeking healing,he tells us to do what? He tells us to go before the elders,be anoited with oil and pray the prayer of faith. So on the surface it already appears that things are changing. No longer is it by command in the name of Jesus. So why does James say this now?

Why is there no other mention of tongues in any other Epistle? Why does it appear that speaking in other languages has already ended after Acts 19? Luke never records again that believers when receiving the Holy Spirit start speaking in other languages and that is over about a seven year period.

How does this all fit together? Remember we can't take isolated passages and make doctrine out of it. So how does this all work together? Why the silence on it within the scriptures if it was to continue on?

 

[zone]

I like to search the Bible like a good Berean. Oh yes I know people can use Bible-verses their own way and twist the meaning. But that is why I mentioned before not to just take one verse. 2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

but why not take the whole passage?
anything in there about tongues?

2 Timothy 3
All Scripture is God-Breathed
10But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience, 11Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me. 12Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. 13But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; 15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

artios: fitted, complete
Original Word: ἄρτιος, ια, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: artios
Phonetic Spelling: (ar'-tee-os)
Short Definition: perfect, complete
Definition: perfect, complete, fitted, ready.

739 ártios (from 737 /árti, "now," viewed in terms of the present, i.e. "the here-and-now") – properly, ready now, prepared to function (efficiently) in the immediate present.

739 /ártios ("ready-because-prepared") is only used in 2 Tim 3:17, "So that the man of God may be adequate (739 /ártios), equipped for every good work" (NASU).


Paul said nothing about tongues being need to fully equip anyone for anything.
here and now....right then...in his day.
prepared to function.
thoroughly furnished to do all good works (all means all).

SCRIPTURE - nothing about tongues.

......

I am going to mention here in 3 points what I do see in your comment if I do quote/understand something wrong let me know.
This is why you think the gifts of the Spirit are not for our time:

• The gifts did cease with Paul because he did heal less at the end of his life.

church history does not record today's pentecostal "gifts"
if you know any differently please post on it.

why did they cease?

It is ceased with him? Lets assume it is true.

i didn't say the gifts ceased with Paul. so i won't be addressing any of that.

When it ceases with Paul (he could heal less) it won't be a reason to believe it was the same with Peter too or John. No prove for that. What isn't mentioned cannot be put in the Bible. I don't add or take off.

oh but you do.
you add all kinds of things to make the Latter Rain system work.

I think you refer than to the great poem in the Corinth letter? (If not let me know what other verse.)Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. 1 Cor 13:8-10

First of all did it say prophecy shall cease? No. .

huh? it specifically said it would cease.

are you sure you mean to contradict Paul?

the word FAIL is not a good translation.

it means the very same thing as the Old Covenant - fadeth away; passeth away. ready to vanish away.

did the Old Covenant cease? was it SUPERCEDED by a better Covenant?
was it FULFILLED by Jesus?

yes, it was....the Old Covenant ceased.

when the BETTER one came.

Second if it still means the same...like failing is a sort of ceasing (if one says so) so than prophecy, tongues are ceasing and.... than knowledge is done too...nowadays. Hmmm I don't think so.

but, you don't know what the supernatural gift of KNOWLEDGE was either.
please look into it.

The perfect thing to come is not our time, I see no perfection right now... What is the perfection Paul talks about in verse 10? But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

i never said THAT WHICH IS PERFECT (THE WORD PERFECT MEANS MATURE/COMPLETE) is a period of time.

THAT WHICH IS PERFECT REFERS TO A THING. not a person; not a state of being; not a period of time.....a THING.

I have searched on ceasing further in the Bible...but sorry, I could find no other references.

[*]The Bible testifies of periods.

You forget a period. The period after Jesus & the Apostles.

really? seriously?
so, you dare to claim that you or anyone else are living in the period of Miraculous activity God chose to display His Power, just like Jesus and the Apostles did?


that's ludicrous....and daring! are you certain you want to make this calim?

please provide some evidence
that you're doing the miracles they did (including Jesus)

and that you are a chosen vessel to speak and write infallibly - meaning YOUR words and proclamations are infallible and have the STAMP of authority as coming from Christ that your words ARE ON PAR WITH HIS.

(the miracles and signs ONLY being a witness to your authority).


please read this account - please tell me what it was that caused the proconsul to believe.


Acts 13
4So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. 5When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. And they had John to assist them. 6When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they came upon a certain magician, a Jewish false prophet named Bar-Jesus. 7He was with the proconsul, Sergius Paulus, a man of intelligence, who summoned Barnabas and Saul and sought to hear the word of God. 8But Elymas the magician (for that is the meaning of his name) opposed them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9But Saul, who was also called Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit, looked intently at him 10and said, “You son of the devil, you enemy of all righteousness, full of all deceit and villainy, will you not stop making crooked the straight paths of the Lord? 11And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon you, and you will be blind and unable to see the sun for a time.” Immediately mist and darkness fell upon him, and he went about seeking people to lead him by the hand. 12Then the proconsul believed, when he saw what had occurred, for he was astonished at the teaching of the Lord.

 

[Stephen63]

No problem there,but it still doesn't address this



How does this all fit together? Remember we can't take isolated passages and make doctrine out of it. So how does this all work together? Why the silence on it within the scriptures if it was to continue on?

2 Corinthians 11:5 [SUP]5 [/SUP]For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
2 Corinthians 12:11 [SUP]11 [/SUP]I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing.

There were differences in the apostles. For instance Timothy and Titus were also considered apostles, but Paul was a father in the faith to both of them........ he was superior due to his training and experience. Barnabas worked under him; Silas worked under him; John Mark worked under him; Luke worked under him; and many others. When you read his epistles, many times he would either send his workers ahead of him, and he would take the heat for the issues against him, or he would go ahead of them, knowing what awaited him. The Lord told Ananias in Acts.... " I would show him what great things he must suffer for my name's sake." Paul suffered all those things alone. I believe what he wrote in his epistles because he himself was well proven. Peter and Jame's epistles were general epistles, teaching basic doctrine. Some of John's epistles were personal and general. Paul's epistles were directed to the churches they were written to,to cover both basic doctrine as well as problematic issues. One of the main topics in nearly all of Paul's writings is about false doctrine, false prophets, and false teachers sneaking their way into the churches. Paul nearly lost the Corinthian church because of evil leaders inside the church were turning them against him. Note the Scripture:
1 Corinthians 5:9 [SUP]9 [/SUP]I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Paul wrote three letters to the Corinthians, not two. If you notice what he wrote here, the first letter was about problems in the church. The good thing about him writing about all their problems was that he had to cover all their issues with true doctrine. This is why I and II Corinthians are such wonderful epistles to begin with, as well as Romans.

 

[SarahM777]

Stephen,

Could you please address this? I just get the distinct feeling you really don't want to,I could be wrong.

Why is there no other mention of tongues in any other Epistle? Why does it appear that speaking in other languages has already ended after Acts 19? Luke never records again that believers when receiving the Holy Spirit start speaking in other languages and that is over about a seven year period.

 

[Stephen63]

Stephen,

Could you please address this? I just get the distinct feeling you really don't want to,I could be wrong.

1. General epistles rarely deal with personal problems within the church.
2. Other personal epistles to churches only covered their personal problems.

 

[SarahM777]

1. General epistles rarely deal with personal problems within the church.
2. Other personal epistles to churches only covered their personal problems.

Did you actually read what I said? What about the fact that the LAST TIME LUKE records that any spoke in an unknown language is in Acts 19,yet for another about seven NOT ONCE does he ever again record that when people became believers that they ever spoke in an unknown language? Why does it appear to have STOPPED? Why doesn't Luke record another time that it happens? Can you explain it? If not that's fine. Just say so.

 

[Abiding]

a sign to show the samaritans(half jews) then the gentiles received the Holyspirit
Job done! Which is exactly what the council said about it.

 

[Stephen63]

she's she's so you do in controlling that's what he felt very

Did you actually read what I said? What about the fact that the LAST TIME LUKE records that any spoke in an unknown language is in Acts 19,yet for another about seven NOT ONCE does he ever again record that when people became believers that they ever spoke in an unknown language? Why does it appear to have STOPPED? Why doesn't Luke record another time that it happens? Can you explain it? If not that's fine. Just say so.

Well, if you read it, you would know:
Chapter 20-21 - Paul makes his final rounds through the churches knowing the trouble waits him in Jerusalem. In Jerusalem he is arrested. He doesn't have time to talk about tongues, for anything else for that matter.
Chapter 22 - Paul makes his defense after he is arrested.
Chapter 23 - makes his defense before the Sanhedrin Council
Chapter 24 - Paul stands before Felix
Chapter 25 - Paul's accused before Festus
Chapter 26 - Paul stands before King Agrippa
Chapter 27 - Paul is sent to Rome
Chapter 28 - Paul spends two years in Rome in his own rented house

You see, if you had read those chapters, you would've found out that Paul didn't have time to teach anything, let alone talk about tongues...... sheesh

 

[zone]

 

[Stephen63]

I kinda felt like that train for the past few hours just trying to push some Scripture through. I didn't make it either

 

[Stephen63]

That was the point, right?