Catholic vs Protestant Debate.

[ChurchAuthority]

who cares if mary stayed a virgin or not, ive honestly never given it a thought, its not important

Read post#105.
THIS is why it is important.

I'll give you another prophecy that states why she was to remain a virgin:

Ezek. 44:2
The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

 

[Xanthus]

who cares if mary stayed a virgin or not, ive honestly never given it a thought, its not important

Some people care.
I get the distinct impression that it is much more important to anti-Catholic bigots than it is to most Catholics.

 

[livingepistle]

What part do you disagree with?

FYI; That creed did not exist in the first century.

You are correct and thank you for emphasizing that the first century teachings and doctrine concerning the Godhead continued throughout the known world until the "Creed" was instituted by force into the social centers of the then known world. Their (The Roman Catholic Church) success happened with the help of Emperor Constantine. The "Creed" galvanized Trinitarians hypostases. The "Creed" is a product of the "Nicene Council". You seem to have an understanding of the Church timeline, “Would this be the 4th century when the Council first convened?”

Satan is subtle with his approaches just as he was with Eve. What happened to Eve is the same that has happened spiritually to the Church where some of its members are concerned. The successful way to get a person to believe a lie is to lace it with partial truth. Jesus is not a substance of God—Jesus is God. He is not something "pinched-off" as a sculptor does with clay, but is fullness of God bodily. Much of what I have to discuss on this subject is reserved for SaintAnthony.

If you believe the "Creed" dogma--that is your prerogative. If you believe that, there are three Gods equal in substance (automatons programmed by God) with special assignments given concerning the affairs of humanity; it is a proclivity you established for yourself.

I am more than willing to "discuss" the "Creed" if you desire but SaintAnthony's subject is composed differently than yours and my original statements are submitted in the context of his question.


Thank you for sharing.

Continuing in Jesus' love,
Livingepistle

 

[Xanthus]

You are correct and thank you for emphasizing that the first century teachings and doctrine concerning the Godhead continued throughout the known world until the "Creed" was instituted by force into the social centers of the then known world. Their (The Roman Catholic Church) success happened with the help of Emperor Constantine. The "Creed" galvanized Trinitarians hypostases. The "Creed" is a product of the "Nicene Council". You seem to have an understanding of the Church timeline, “Would this be the 4th century when the Council first convened?”
[....]
If you believe the "Creed" dogma--that is your prerogative. If you believe that, there are three Gods equal in substance (automatons programmed by God) with special assignments given concerning the affairs of humanity; it is a proclivity you established for yourself.

I am more than willing to "discuss" the "Creed" if you desire but SaintAnthony's subject is composed differently than yours and my original statements are submitted in the context of his question.

Thank you for sharing.
Continuing in Jesus' love,
Livingepistle

Just off the top of my head, I think it was 325AD.

You say, "If you believe that, there are three Gods equal in substance (automatons programmed by God)"

?! Where do people come up with this stuff?
Right out the starting gate the Creed says there is ONE God...

Three Gods... automatons... blah blah... c'mon, if you want to be taken seriously you might want to just try to pretend that you have a modicum of sanity and you can reply to the facts as presented.

 

[HollyLoree]

Just off the top of my head, I think it was 325AD.

You say, "If you believe that, there are three Gods equal in substance (automatons programmed by God)"

?! Where do people come up with this stuff?
Right out the starting gate the Creed says there is ONE God...

Three Gods... automatons... blah blah... c'mon, if you want to be taken seriously you might want to just try to pretend that you have a modicum of sanity and you can reply to the facts as presented.

Sorry, but what livingepistle said made perfect sense to me. Your reply, however, made no sense whatsoever. Just saying....

 

[Xanthus]

Sorry, but what livingepistle said made perfect sense to me. Your reply, however, made no sense whatsoever. Just saying....

In order to follow, you have to read the questions he was posing in the part that I quoted. It was not meant to be a standalone statement.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I do not believe that remaining a virgin would be disobeying any instruction for the woman if her husband chose not to have conjugal relations. Please explain how this would be otherwise.

I did not insult Mary. Explain this in NO UNCERTAIN fashion or be revealed as a deceiver. No "if" elements... you implied that I was "insulting" Mary so now I ask you to definitively justify that accusation with no qualifiers. Straight up or take it back.

Enough with your false accusations and deception.

Please make your case on its own merits and dispense with the false accusations that depend on your personal belief system (with which I am barely just now becoming familiar) to have any validity.

the scriptural evidence has been posted already but you keep -ignoring- whatever evidence anyone posts...here it is again anyway...

1 corinthians 7:5..."Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

here paul -condemns- the practice of refraining indefinitely from sexual activity in marriage... any agreement between a married couple not to have sexual relations was supposed to be -temporary- only...there is absolutely no provision for 'perpetual virginity' within marriage...

so as i said you are basically accusing mary and joseph of failing to obey God's instructions regarding marriage...this is -insulting- to both of them...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Tell me something - if Jesus had uterine siblings, why would He place His mother in the care of a person OUTSIDE the family (John) after His death?
This would have been a grievous insult and caused great scandal to the family and the community.

well in case it escaped you...jesus' life was -full- of scandal...

why would jesus have had one of his disciples look after mary instead of one of her other sons? the answer to that is pretty easy...the other sons would not have been spiritually fit for the task... it is indicated in the bible that pretty much all of jesus' family aside from his parents and his cousin john the baptist doubted him...at least for the duration of his lifetime... jesus would not have wanted to put his mother in the care of an unbeliever...so the best thing was to ask his closest disciple to take care of her...

 

[zone]

Douay-Rheims Bible:


Matthew 1
24And Joseph rising up from sleep, did as the angel of the Lord had commanded him, and took unto him his wife. 25And he knew her not till she brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

...

Mark 6:3
Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, the brother of James, and Joseph, and Jude, and Simon? are not also his sisters here with us? And they were scandalized in regard of him.

John 7
3And his brethren said to him: Pass from hence, and go into Judea; that thy disciples also may see thy works which thou dost. 4For there is no man that doth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou do these things, manifest thyself to the world. 5For neither did his brethren believe in him

John 2:17
And his disciples remembered, that it was written: The zeal of thy house hath eaten me up
7Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face.
8I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to the sons of my mother.

Psalm 69
9For the zeal of thy house hath eaten me up: and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.
"I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto MY MOTHER'S CHILDREN. For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me."

~

Luke 1:36
"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren."

Luke 1:58
"And her neighbours and her cousins heard how the Lord had shewed great mercy upon her; and they rejoiced with her."

cousin means cousin.

~

since all men die (as a result of sin); the Catholic Church had to add to the Immaculate Conception (Mary born without sin; never sinned) the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary:

"The Assumption of the Virgin Mary into Heaven, informally known as The Assumption, according to the beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy, and parts of Anglicanism, was the bodily taking up of the Virgin Mary into Heaven at the end of her earthly life."

she had to end her life on earth without dying - hence the Assumption.

...


seriously.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

[



Let me give you both a Scripture lesson.

Mary is the fulfillment of the OT Type that was the Ark of the Covenant.
Whereas the Ark carried symbols of God within it, Mary actually carried God witin her womb. This is why she was proclaimed Theotokos (God Bearer) at the 1st Council of Ephesus in 431.

Don't believe the Ark was an OT type of Mary? Let's examine the facts:

a. The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
b. The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

a. [The New Covenant] will not be like the covenant that... they broke though I was their husband (Jer. 31:31)
b. The Holy Spirit (God) is Mary's spouse (Luke 1:35)

a. "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
b. "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

a. When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
b. When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

a. The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
b. Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

a. The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
b. Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

Now - here is a general Scriptural rule about types and fulfillmets:
NT Fulfillments are ALWAYS more perfect and glorious than their OT Types. ALWAYS - without exception - and this case is NO diffrent.

If the Ark, which was a type was pure and un defiled, Mary, the fulfillment would have to be that much MORE pure and undefiled.

There ends the lesson.

your exegesis is seriously flawed...the ark of the covenant was -not- an old testament type of mary...

instead the ark of the covenant is an old testament type of christ himself...just look at the evidence...

the ark is more or less symbolic of the presence of God among the israelites...
the ark is a physical container holding commandments received from God...the word of God in human flesh...
the ten commandments were never removed from the ark...
the ark went with the israelites in their travels on the way to the promised land...

none of this fits mary but it perfectly fits jesus...if there is any type of mary it would have be to be the tabernacle which contained the ark for a time...as mary carried jesus for a time...

also i will point out that God is not mary's spouse...-joseph- was mary's spouse...you basically just accused God of stealing a man's wife...which is pure blasphemy...

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

Read post#105.
THIS is why it is important.

I'll give you another prophecy that states why she was to remain a virgin:

Ezek. 44:2
The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

What does this have anything to do with Mary. Talk about taking out of context...

This entire passage is talking about the temple; which has nothing to do with Mary.

Again, twisting and bending - misplacing of verses to defend what cannot be defended.

 

[Xanthus]

the scriptural evidence has been posted already but you keep -ignoring- whatever evidence anyone posts...here it is again anyway...

1 corinthians 7:5..."Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control."

here paul -condemns- the practice of refraining indefinitely from sexual activity in marriage... any agreement between a married couple not to have sexual relations was supposed to be -temporary- only...there is absolutely no provision for 'perpetual virginity' within marriage...

so as i said you are basically accusing mary and joseph of failing to obey God's instructions regarding marriage...this is -insulting- to both of them...

I am NOT accusing Mary or Joseph of any such thing and this presumptuous crap needs to stop right now -- understand?!

And I am NOT ignoring you.

St Paul opened his letters to the Corinthians with a qualifier something along the lines of "since you are a bunch of incorrigible fornicators with no self control" I give you the following;
and then he proceeded to give his instructions.
Get a freekin grip people.

The way I see it those instructions would not even come CLOSE to being applicable to Mary or Joseph.

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I'll go even further than that.
Catholics were the very FIRST Christians.

and there is of course absolutely no historical evidence for that...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Read post#105.
THIS is why it is important.

I'll give you another prophecy that states why she was to remain a virgin:

Ezek. 44:2
The LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered through it.

ezekiel 44 is part of a vision about the temple...this has nothing whatsoever to do with mary...

and you are basically continuing your accusation that God stole joseph's wife...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

Some people care.
I get the distinct impression that it is much more important to anti-Catholic bigots than it is to most Catholics.

it is important to defend mary from claims that basically say that mary disobeyed God's design for marriage...

 

[RachelBibleStudent]

I am NOT accusing Mary or Joseph of any such thing and this presumptuous crap needs to stop right now -- understand?!

And I am NOT ignoring you.

St Paul opened his letters to the Corinthians with a qualifier something along the lines of "since you are a bunch of incorrigible fornicators with no self control" I give you the following;
and then he proceeded to give his instructions.
Get a freekin grip people.

The way I see it those instructions would not even come CLOSE to being applicable to Mary or Joseph.

God does not have double standards...what was moral behavior for the corinthians was moral behavior for mary and joseph...paul's comments are marriage are applicable to -all- christian marriages...

sex was part of God's design for marriage from the very beginning...and we know that God intended for marriage to be a symbol of the relationship between christ and his church...it is only natural that the most famous married couple in human history should have followed God's design for marriage to the letter...

mary and joseph were obedient to God's design for marriage...they had sex...mary did not remain perpetually a virgin...and it is insulting to her to claim otherwise...

 

[mwc68]

to clear up any questions about Catholic teaching, I suggest to anyone to attend the RCIA program of the Catholic Church. All of the teachings are presented and questions are answered better than a chat forum can. I personally am repulsed by the hatred for Catholicism and it strengthens my faith in the Church

 

[Xanthus]

God does not have double standards...what was moral behavior for the corinthians was moral behavior for mary and joseph...paul's comments are marriage are applicable to -all- christian marriages...

I say you are wrong.
(OHHHH gaaaggghhh! How?? How?!! can you lump Mary and Joseph in with the Corinthians... ohhh what an INSULT... why do you INSULT the Mother of God this way?...)

In fact, I say you are full of stuff and nonsense on this one. Your sweeping gesture across the entire population of planet earth makes no sense.
God might very well have as many standards as there are people on earth for all you know... in fact, I suspect that to a certain degree under certain circumstances... God probably does. I understand that for those who subject themselves to the obviously False Doctrine of Sola Scriptura this is Blasphemy ... but that is your problem, not mine.

 

[Abiding]

I say you are wrong.
(OHHHH gaaaggghhh! How?? How?!! can you lump Mary and Joseph in with the Corinthians... ohhh what an INSULT... why do you INSULT the Mother of God this way?...)

In fact, I say you are full of stuff and nonsense on this one. Your sweeping gesture across the entire population of planet earth makes no sense.
God might very well have as many standards as there are people on earth for all you know... in fact, I suspect that to a certain degree under certain circumstances... God probably does. I understand that for those who subject themselves to the obviously False Doctrine of Sola Scriptura this is Blasphemy ... but that is your problem, not mine.

Im kinda doubting your emotionalism will settle this much.

 

[oOfallen_angelOo]

to clear up any questions about Catholic teaching, I suggest to anyone to attend the RCIA program of the Catholic Church. All of the teachings are presented and questions are answered better than a chat forum can. I personally am repulsed by the hatred for Catholicism and it strengthens my faith in the Church

Catholicism wouldn't be " hated," if it wasn't so messed up. I mean the church got corrupted by Sun god paganism years ago, directed the inquisition which slaughtered tons of people, little children are getting molested too commonly there, they set up idols of Mary and bow to her, they twist and distort Bible verses to produce the multitudes of " religious" doctrine to defend their interpretation of the Bible.

To top it off, they say they are the infalible church of God when throughout all of their history and their costumes, they have been blatantly full of fallacy.

I was even told by a Catholic, that the Bible isn't the full way to salvation; and then another on here actually, talks about Sola Scriptura which pretty much says that we can't follow the Bible fully because we can't understand it, so we have to rely on some religious leader like the Pope to do it for us.

The Pope bows down to an idol;

The last pope even confessed that xmas wasn't Christian and that he just follows them because it's a tradition.

Uh, Bible says NOT to follow the traditions of man...

This is really who we are to look to to interpret the scriptures? Some man praised and glorified like a king, living in golden palace, called Father?

Wow...

I don't mean to attack your church, but isn't it obvious that something is wrong there?