Ukraine the bad guy?

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gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,399
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One minor "victory" in Bakhmut is nothing in the overall context of the war. Wagner will leave, the incompetents of the Russian army will take over and Bakhmut will be taken back, sooner or later.

It's nobody's call except the people of Ukraine. Those who support Ukraine realise that allowing Russia to occupy some Ukranian territory in 2014 was a mistake. Anyone who imagines that Russia would stop at Ukraine is deluded. Putin wants to emulate Catherine the Great. If he is allowed to succeed in Ukraine, he will rebuild his forces until he is confident that he can take out other former soviet nations. How do I know? He's implied that himself and his actions have demonstrated his resolve.

If Ukrainians want Russian control, they should be allowed to let Putin take over. If not, they should be backed to the hilt. So far, they have shown no willingness to step back. Ukraine complains that the West has not done enough to help.

Good faith negotiations? With Putin? Dream on.
some of those regions in eastern ukraine, speak mostly russian and want to join it.

there are a lot of opinions on allowing nation states who annex parts of other nation states.

as someone who has generations of ancestors from the southern part of america, i have very negative opinion of being forced to stay in a nation i do not want to stay in, as the confederacy was forced back into the united states.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,441
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compared to what they could be doing, russia is taking a light handed approach..
The only additional firepower Russia has is nuclear. Even Putin is not that arrogant and stupid. Have you seen the armoured vehicles Putin is sending to the front? 1950's stuff. He's thrown away much of his better equipment by poor tactics and lousy training, not to mention corrupt procurement practices that leave his army without decent uniforms and protection.

Ukraine has been fighting with one hand tied behind its back, constrained by the threat of withdrawal of support from the West. Russia can attack Ukraine at will. Putin still can't make any meaningful progress.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,619
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One minor "victory" in Bakhmut is nothing in the overall context of the war. Wagner will leave, the incompetents of the Russian army will take over and Bakhmut will be taken back, sooner or later.

It's nobody's call except the people of Ukraine. Those who support Ukraine realise that allowing Russia to occupy some Ukranian territory in 2014 was a mistake. Anyone who imagines that Russia would stop at Ukraine is deluded. Putin wants to emulate Catherine the Great. If he is allowed to succeed in Ukraine, he will rebuild his forces until he is confident that he can take out other former soviet nations. How do I know? He's implied that himself and his actions have demonstrated his resolve.

If Ukrainians want Russian control, they should be allowed to let Putin take over. If not, they should be backed to the hilt. So far, they have shown no willingness to step back. Ukraine complains that the West has not done enough to help.

Good faith negotiations? With Putin? Dream on.
Her is a lesson in $$$geopolitics$$$ for you buddy. The reality is anything if not sobering.

https://www.zerohedge.com/geopolitical/seymour-hersh-something-else-cooking-ukraine

But something else is cooking, as some in the American intelligence community know and have reported in secret, at the instigation of government officials at various levels in Poland, Hungary, Lithuania, Estonia, Czechoslovakia, and Latvia. These countries are all allies of Ukraine and declared enemies of Vladimir Putin.

This group is led by Poland, whose leadership no longer fears the Russian army because its performance in Ukraine has left the glow of its success at Stalingrad during the Second World War in tatters. It has been quietly urging Zelensky to find a way to end the war—even by resigning himself, if necessary—and to allow the process of rebuilding his nation to get under way. Zelensky is not budging, according to intercepts and other data known inside the Central Intelligence Agency, but he is beginning to lose the private support of his neighbors.

One of the driving forces for the quiet European talks with Zelensky has been the more than five million Ukrainians fleeing from the war who have crossed the country’s borders and have registered with its neighbors under an EU agreement for temporary protection that includes residency rights, access to the labor market, housing, social welfare assistance, and medical care.

A February analysis of the European refugee issue by the Council on Foreign Relations found that “tens of billions of dollars” in humanitarian aid were poured into Ukraine’s neighbors during the war’s first year.

“As the conflict enters its second year with no end in sight,” the report says, “experts worry that host countries are growing fatigued.”
Weeks ago I learned that the American intelligence community was aware that some officials in Western Europe and the Baltic states want the war between Ukraine and Russia to end. These officials have concluded that it is time for Zelensky to “come around” and seek a settlement. A knowledgeable American official told me that some in the leadership in Hungary and Poland were among those working together to get Ukraine involved in serious talks with Moscow. “Hungary is a big player in this and so are Poland and Germany, and they are working to get Zelensky to come around,” the American official said.

The European leaders have made it clear that “Zelensky can keep what he’s got”—a villa in Italy and interests in offshore bank accounts—“if he works up a peace deal $$$even if he’s got to be paid off$$$, if it’s the only way to get a deal.”

So far, the official said, Zelensky has rejected such advice and ignored $$$offers of large sums of money$$$ to ease his retreat to an estate he owns in Italy. There is no support in the Biden Administration for any settlement that involves Zelensky’s departure, and the leadership in France and England “are too beholden” to Biden to contemplate such a scenario. There is a reality that some elements in the American intelligence community can’t ignore, the official said, even if the White House is ignoring it: “Ukraine is running out of money and it is known that the next four or months are critical. And Eastern Europeans are talking about a deal.” The issue for them, the official told me, “is how to get the United States to stop supporting Zelensky,” The White House support goes beyond the needs of the war: “We are paying all of the retirement funds—the 401k’s—for Ukraine.”

And Zelensky wants $$$more$$$, the official said.

“Zelensky is telling us that if you want to win the war you’ve got to give me more money and more stuff. He tells us, ‘I’ve got to pay off the generals.’ He’s telling us”—if he is forced out of office—“he’s going to the highest bidder. He’d rather go to Italy than stay and possibly get killed by his own people.”
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,619
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Ukraine has been fighting with one hand tied behind its back
Actually, the entire arm was blown off by Russian military. Leg too, and also suffering from a sucking chest wound.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,441
3,222
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Actually, the entire arm was blown off by Russian military. Leg too, and also suffering from a sucking chest wound.
We will see. Russia cannot finish off a cripple, it would seem.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,441
3,222
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some of those regions in eastern ukraine, speak mostly russian and want to join it.

there are a lot of opinions on allowing nation states who annex parts of other nation states.

as someone who has generations of ancestors from the southern part of america, i have very negative opinion of being forced to stay in a nation i do not want to stay in, as the confederacy was forced back into the united states.
Russians can easily go live in Russia if they prefer. Why does America not give back the lands taken by force from Mexico? Do you agree that it was immoral to wage war on Mexico? Why not promote the idea of giving those lands back?
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113

I'm puzzled why you see Russia as doing so well in this conflict. Anyway though i don't see this at all what I see is that the battle lines where the conflict was in 2014-15 compared to 2023 shows that the Russian line is slowly diminishing.

Here is where they were in 2014-15(click map in link and look for Bakhmut) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_war_in_Donbas_(2015)#July–September

And this is the map showing who holds what in 2023(again look for Bakhmut) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65615184
After fighting for 9 years the line has moved backwards in some places and in others they are still in the same positions.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
37,491
6,929
113
I'm puzzled why you see Russia as doing so well in this conflict. Anyway though i don't see this at all what I see is that the battle lines where the conflict was in 2014-15 compared to 2023 shows that the Russian line is slowly diminishing.

Here is where they were in 2014-15(click map in link and look for Bakhmut) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_war_in_Donbas_(2015)#July–September

And this is the map showing who holds what in 2023(again look for Bakhmut) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65615184
After fighting for 9 years the line has moved backwards in some places and in others they are still in the same positions.
You must not be familiar with George Foreman, one of the greatest heavyweight fighters in history. He lost to Ali when he was at the peak of his power and skill and then twenty years later used what he learned in that fight to regain the heavyweight crown.

When Ali fought Foreman it was at the very end of his career. He could not dance for 12 rounds, nor could he go toe to toe with Foreman. This guy demolished everyone in the first few rounds including Frazier. This is like Russia going up against NATO and the US. We are much more powerful than they are, better equipped and in better shape. So what Ali did was called "rope a dope" but it is far harder than it sounds. He had to get his body into incredible shape, Foreman could easily break a few ribs and make your arms go numb. Then for seven rounds Ali's strategy was to provoke Foreman to throw everything at him that he had. Think of Ukraine as where Russia is leaning on the ropes and letting NATO throw everything they have at them. The eighth round is the hardest, you are completely exhausted and your second wind hasn't kicked in yet. This is when Ali could attack because Foreman was too exhausted to hit him with full power. Again, sounds easier than it is, you have to sit there absorb all those punches and then be ready to come out in the 8th to knock the guy out and all you have is this tiny window.

Well, when Foreman was in his forties trying to win the championship again he did something similar. He was too slow to win a fight on points. So he suckered the opponent into thinking his punches had lost their legendary power. Once the guy felt he didn't have to worry about Foreman's power he was more willing to fight toe to toe. Foreman knew he would take a bunch of hits and he knew he had no chance to win on points, he also knew that if he knocked the guy down but not out he would become much more careful and he would lose. So again, he had a very narrow window, sucker the guy in to where he could knock him out and make sure when you do, that it is for good.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,619
113
I'm puzzled why you see Russia as doing so well in this conflict. Anyway though i don't see this at all what I see is that the battle lines where the conflict was in 2014-15 compared to 2023 shows that the Russian line is slowly diminishing.

Here is where they were in 2014-15(click map in link and look for Bakhmut) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_war_in_Donbas_(2015)#July–September

And this is the map showing who holds what in 2023(again look for Bakhmut) https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65615184
After fighting for 9 years the line has moved backwards in some places and in others they are still in the same positions.
The Russians are not "after territory" primarily. Their first priority is to de-militarize Ukraine. The front lines deviating do not matter that much.
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
8,048
1,609
113
The Russians are not "after territory" primarily. Their first priority is to de-militarize Ukraine. The front lines deviating do not matter that much.
Oh and see I thought Putin was unhappy with the breakup of the former Soviet Union and so he's annexing Crimea,claiming the areas where the fighting is going on in Ukraine and planning to set it back up like he keeps saying,,(we should tell Putin to stop annexing and invading places).
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,619
113
Oh and see I thought Putin was unhappy with the breakup of the former Soviet Union and so he's annexing Crimea,claiming the areas where the fighting is going on in Ukraine and planning to set it back up like he keeps saying,,(we should tell Putin to stop annexing and invading places).
Oh well. Don't poke the bear. Russia is engaging in various underhanded shenanigans just like the rest of the nutter world leaders. That's what they do. Evidently they find it fun and exciting.

Trying to pick a winner or labeling one party or the other the "good guys" is folly.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,619
113
The only additional firepower Russia has is nuclear. Even Putin is not that arrogant and stupid. Have you seen the armoured vehicles Putin is sending to the front? 1950's stuff. He's thrown away much of his better equipment by poor tactics and lousy training, not to mention corrupt procurement practices that leave his army without decent uniforms and protection.

Ukraine has been fighting with one hand tied behind its back, constrained by the threat of withdrawal of support from the West. Russia can attack Ukraine at will. Putin still can't make any meaningful progress.
This persistence in promoting the war is because Z wants a better $$$offer$$$.

Evidently he has been an avid watcher of the amerikanskiy show "The Price is Right".
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,441
3,222
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This persistence in promoting the war is because Z wants a better $$$offer$$$.

Evidently he has been an avid watcher of the amerikanskiy show "The Price is Right".
You had better be right. God hates slander and false accusations. You will be judged in the same way that you are judging Zelensky.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
23,801
8,619
113
You had better be right. God hates slander and false accusations. You will be judged in the same way that you are judging Zelensky.
Then again, the watchman on the wall is responsible to his charge.
 

Fundaamental

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2023
3,289
421
83
You had better be right. God hates slander and false accusations. You will be judged in the same way that you are judging Zelensky.
but are you not Judging zelensky to ?

You may think your judging him for the right the reasons but your still judging his motives.

Are you sure your judging him correctly ?.

Because by doing so your favouring more conflict.