Are there any radical reformers out there?
- Thread starter Nebuchadnezzer
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You stated, "And it is interesting that there is no reference in the scriptures or history that suggests what you are suggesting. "
My response was that I have only been suggesting what I have read in books that explain the history. This is not a difficult subject to research. I am not sure how you ended up with different conclusions. But I have no interest in dragging on the conversation. All that can be known about the 1st century house church has been discussed for centuries and I am quite convinced that the Acts account of the large upper chamber with many lights was a scriptural example and not a modern living room in a small house. I mean if your church is 20 people but if it grows as it should then you're going to need a bigger house and I don't need to know history to figure that out.
If anyone tries to insist on a small group setting as the biblical pattern I just quit the conversation as they are bent on their own framing of reality.
My response was that I have only been suggesting what I have read in books that explain the history. This is not a difficult subject to research. I am not sure how you ended up with different conclusions. But I have no interest in dragging on the conversation. All that can be known about the 1st century house church has been discussed for centuries and I am quite convinced that the Acts account of the large upper chamber with many lights was a scriptural example and not a modern living room in a small house. I mean if your church is 20 people but if it grows as it should then you're going to need a bigger house and I don't need to know history to figure that out.
If anyone tries to insist on a small group setting as the biblical pattern I just quit the conversation as they are bent on their own framing of reality.
I couldn't have written any better than you. I myself found my TRUE relationship with the Lord away from church and only through scripture this is my 22nd year in Christ. I'm a unwavering Christian with scripture sealed in my mind . I recently reached out to my old church which is non denomination . I was so disturbed that I could not find a believer that actually knows the word of God nor lives in obedience of the Lord.
My heart felt broken and I cried for 3 weeks to the ugly truth of the world and how many self claimed false CHRISTIAN'S are out there.
No wonder why the lord says when 2 or more are gathered in his name he is amoungst us. I want to reassure you that your not alone and just how precious you are . you are one of the chosen out of the many who were called. Oh I don't believe that there's underground church's.
My heart felt broken and I cried for 3 weeks to the ugly truth of the world and how many self claimed false CHRISTIAN'S are out there.
No wonder why the lord says when 2 or more are gathered in his name he is amoungst us. I want to reassure you that your not alone and just how precious you are . you are one of the chosen out of the many who were called. Oh I don't believe that there's underground church's.
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I live in Cali- Babylon
It was very tough finding a church
That was serious about walking with Christ
Apostasy galore!!
I am fortunate to Have John Macarthur- Grace Community
Aaron Gehlken
Of Central Baptist
Both are bible literate and close to
Enough..Both rebelled against our Evik Emperor Gavin Newsome
So I had to hunt but I did find a few places -
I also attend Zoom bible study with a group of sincere folk
But I agrer Apostasy is hard to avoid
It was very tough finding a church
That was serious about walking with Christ
Apostasy galore!!
I am fortunate to Have John Macarthur- Grace Community
Aaron Gehlken
Of Central Baptist
Both are bible literate and close to
Enough..Both rebelled against our Evik Emperor Gavin Newsome
So I had to hunt but I did find a few places -
I also attend Zoom bible study with a group of sincere folk
But I agrer Apostasy is hard to avoid
I had read some time ago that there was upward of one million believers that had given up on the denominational church in America and were now meeting in homes. Anyone's guess how many there are now.
I rerad of a house church in India with 100,000 members. All scattered around the city meeting in homes.
My own church back in the UK started with three people meeeting in a home. From that a whole movement sprang up with churches in the home meeting all over the UK.
The New Testament church started as a house church and from that it grew from city to city, always as a church in the home.
In China unless you belong to the offical communist 3 self church you have no choice but to meet in homes as meeting in buildings is banned.
If you meet in homes your growth is unlimited. When you fill up one home, you just go and open another. If you meet in homes, you can have a church in every street.
I rerad of a house church in India with 100,000 members. All scattered around the city meeting in homes.
My own church back in the UK started with three people meeeting in a home. From that a whole movement sprang up with churches in the home meeting all over the UK.
The New Testament church started as a house church and from that it grew from city to city, always as a church in the home.
In China unless you belong to the offical communist 3 self church you have no choice but to meet in homes as meeting in buildings is banned.
If you meet in homes your growth is unlimited. When you fill up one home, you just go and open another. If you meet in homes, you can have a church in every street.
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Re: first one, depends what they believe and do. A non-denominationla church can be guilty of maintaining the status quo.
In the New Testament, which was a house church, the overseers were Elders, not a pastor. There was only one church in each town as in the Church at Corinth, not the churches in Corinth. That one church was overseen by a plurality of Elders who were resonsible for the life of the church. Their roles were to teach, shepherd, oversee and correct. Not every Elder taught and not every Elder was a shepherd. They functioned in the ministry they were given by the Lord. Most important, none of them were paid.
For the church to function today the same way we would have to have the Church at wherever all meeting in homes governed by a body of Elders.
Today, a church in the home in any given town is usually isolated and not part of the overal structure of the church in that town. Generally speaking, ministers guard their territory to prevent proselytising or stealing sheep.
I was asked to start a house church which I ran for three years. I never appointed anyone to anything. They tended to fall into place and did what they did best. That way everyone was happy with their ministry and gave their best. I concentrate on my ministry which was teaching.
In the New Testament, which was a house church, the overseers were Elders, not a pastor. There was only one church in each town as in the Church at Corinth, not the churches in Corinth. That one church was overseen by a plurality of Elders who were resonsible for the life of the church. Their roles were to teach, shepherd, oversee and correct. Not every Elder taught and not every Elder was a shepherd. They functioned in the ministry they were given by the Lord. Most important, none of them were paid.
For the church to function today the same way we would have to have the Church at wherever all meeting in homes governed by a body of Elders.
Today, a church in the home in any given town is usually isolated and not part of the overal structure of the church in that town. Generally speaking, ministers guard their territory to prevent proselytising or stealing sheep.
I was asked to start a house church which I ran for three years. I never appointed anyone to anything. They tended to fall into place and did what they did best. That way everyone was happy with their ministry and gave their best. I concentrate on my ministry which was teaching.
I can only answer from a New Testament perspective. I will surmise that the church in the New Testament was of significant size if there was only one church in each town. I have no problem with this concept as long as the structure is New Testament. For it to be New Testament, it will need Elders to oversee the church, not a pastor/lead pastor/senior pastor.
Some time ago I read that 1600 pastors were leaving the church each month in America. I am not surpised as if you put a round peg into a square hole, it will eventually fall out. Putting a pastor in charge of a church is putting a round peg into a square hole. I loved being part of the home church I started as I didn't have to worry about anything other than teaching. Everything else was taken care of by the congregation.
I welcome churches of significant size if they embrace every believer in the town, not as a stand alone church that ignores all the others. Believe it or not, the world notices the split in the church in a town and are not impressed. The common refrain is "You can't agree with each other." The fact that it is the truth, and until we come to terms with it, we are going nowhere fast.
As for churches of significant size today, numbers does not necessairy mean success. All it could mean is that it is a church who pushes the right button for a specific demographic.
I corresponded with a church leader who was bemoaning that they did not have enough ministers and buildings to cover all the towns that needed a church. I suggested to him that instead of waiting for buildings to be built and ministers to be appointed that he utilises the lay people and start churches in the home and see where that led.
No, you can lose control in situations like that.
Conversely, I knew of a Restoration Movement stream in the UK, who were constantly seeking to expand. When the Lord spoke to them through prayer to start up in another town, they asked for families to upend and move to that town. When it came time, half a dozen families sold up and moved to the new town and started a house meeting. From that always came a larger church which grew and established meetings in the home.
When you are not bogged down with rules and regulations, anything can happen.
Some time ago I read that 1600 pastors were leaving the church each month in America. I am not surpised as if you put a round peg into a square hole, it will eventually fall out. Putting a pastor in charge of a church is putting a round peg into a square hole. I loved being part of the home church I started as I didn't have to worry about anything other than teaching. Everything else was taken care of by the congregation.
I welcome churches of significant size if they embrace every believer in the town, not as a stand alone church that ignores all the others. Believe it or not, the world notices the split in the church in a town and are not impressed. The common refrain is "You can't agree with each other." The fact that it is the truth, and until we come to terms with it, we are going nowhere fast.
As for churches of significant size today, numbers does not necessairy mean success. All it could mean is that it is a church who pushes the right button for a specific demographic.
I corresponded with a church leader who was bemoaning that they did not have enough ministers and buildings to cover all the towns that needed a church. I suggested to him that instead of waiting for buildings to be built and ministers to be appointed that he utilises the lay people and start churches in the home and see where that led.
No, you can lose control in situations like that.
Conversely, I knew of a Restoration Movement stream in the UK, who were constantly seeking to expand. When the Lord spoke to them through prayer to start up in another town, they asked for families to upend and move to that town. When it came time, half a dozen families sold up and moved to the new town and started a house meeting. From that always came a larger church which grew and established meetings in the home.
When you are not bogged down with rules and regulations, anything can happen.
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the organized religion founded by Jesus Christ himself can never be called False
but the members therein... different story
Anne Catherine Emmerich, a canonized saint, talks about how she had a vision of the Catholic Church being infiltrated (my word) and people trying to make a "new church" from it..
I could have written that myself... seen a lot of bizarre stuff...
but the members therein... different story
Anne Catherine Emmerich, a canonized saint, talks about how she had a vision of the Catholic Church being infiltrated (my word) and people trying to make a "new church" from it..
I could have written that myself... seen a lot of bizarre stuff...
Anne Catherine Emmerich (also Anna Katharina Emmerick; 8 September 1774 – 9 February 1824) was a Roman Catholic Augustinian Canoness Regular of Windesheim, mystic, Marian visionary, ecstatic and stigmatist.
Stigmata[edit]
In early 1813, marks of the stigmata were reported on Emmerich's body. The parish priest called in two doctors to examine her. When word of the phenomenon spread three months later, he notified the vicar general. With the news causing considerable talk in the town, the ecclesiastical authorities conducted a lengthy investigation. Many doctors wished to examine the case, and although efforts were made to discourage the curious, there were visitors whose rank or status gained them entry.[7] During this time, the poet and romanticist Clemens Brentano first visited.
At the end of 1818, the periodic bleeding of Emmerich's hands and feet had stopped and the wounds had closed. While many in the community viewed the stigmata as real, others considered Emmerich an impostor conspiring with her associates to perpetrate a fraud. In August 1819, the civil authorities intervened and moved Emmerich to a different house, where she was kept under observation for three weeks. The members of the commission could find no evidence of fraud and were divided in their opinions.[7]
Visions and inspirations[edit]
Emmerich said that as a child she had visions in which she talked with Jesus, saw the souls in purgatory, and witnessed the core of the Holy Trinity in the form of three concentric, interpenetrating full spheres. The largest but dimmest of the spheres represented the Father core, the medium sphere the Son core, and the smallest and brightest sphere the Holy Spirit core. Each sphere of omnipresent God is extended toward infinity beyond God's core placed in heaven. The Brentano compilation tells that during an illness in Emmerich's childhood, she was visited by a child (suggested as being Jesus), who told her of plants she should ingest in order to heal, including Morning Glory flower's juice, known to contain ergine.
Emmerich had many mystical visions which she spoke about. The following seems to be mirrored in many traditions as truth: She wrote, for instance, of 'a Mount of Prophets, which she clearly identified as the Himalayas, where live Enoch, Elijah and others who did not die in the ordinary way but ascended, and where animals which survived the Flood may also be found'. Some say she was seeing the legendary spiritual fortress of Shambala (Eastern tradition), or the Magical City of Luz (Hebrew Tradition), basically a place found in many ancient traditions where those who are immortal, or special in such a way, go. (This is mostly based on page 173 of The Secret History of the World by Jonathan Black)
Based on Emmerich's growing reputation, a number of figures who were influential in the renewal movement of the church early in the 19th century came to visit her, among them Clemens August von Droste zu Vischering, the future Archbishop of Cologne; Johann Michael Sailer, the Bishop of Ratisbon, since 1803 the sole surviving Elector Spiritual of the Holy Roman Empire; Bernhard Overberg and authors Luise Hensel and Friedrich Stolberg.[1] Clemens von Droste, at the time still vicar‑general of the Archdiocese, called Emmerich "a special friend of God" in a letter he wrote to Stolberg.[1]
Stigmata[edit]
In early 1813, marks of the stigmata were reported on Emmerich's body. The parish priest called in two doctors to examine her. When word of the phenomenon spread three months later, he notified the vicar general. With the news causing considerable talk in the town, the ecclesiastical authorities conducted a lengthy investigation. Many doctors wished to examine the case, and although efforts were made to discourage the curious, there were visitors whose rank or status gained them entry.[7] During this time, the poet and romanticist Clemens Brentano first visited.
At the end of 1818, the periodic bleeding of Emmerich's hands and feet had stopped and the wounds had closed. While many in the community viewed the stigmata as real, others considered Emmerich an impostor conspiring with her associates to perpetrate a fraud. In August 1819, the civil authorities intervened and moved Emmerich to a different house, where she was kept under observation for three weeks. The members of the commission could find no evidence of fraud and were divided in their opinions.[7]
Visions and inspirations[edit]
Emmerich said that as a child she had visions in which she talked with Jesus, saw the souls in purgatory, and witnessed the core of the Holy Trinity in the form of three concentric, interpenetrating full spheres. The largest but dimmest of the spheres represented the Father core, the medium sphere the Son core, and the smallest and brightest sphere the Holy Spirit core. Each sphere of omnipresent God is extended toward infinity beyond God's core placed in heaven. The Brentano compilation tells that during an illness in Emmerich's childhood, she was visited by a child (suggested as being Jesus), who told her of plants she should ingest in order to heal, including Morning Glory flower's juice, known to contain ergine.
Emmerich had many mystical visions which she spoke about. The following seems to be mirrored in many traditions as truth: She wrote, for instance, of 'a Mount of Prophets, which she clearly identified as the Himalayas, where live Enoch, Elijah and others who did not die in the ordinary way but ascended, and where animals which survived the Flood may also be found'. Some say she was seeing the legendary spiritual fortress of Shambala (Eastern tradition), or the Magical City of Luz (Hebrew Tradition), basically a place found in many ancient traditions where those who are immortal, or special in such a way, go. (This is mostly based on page 173 of The Secret History of the World by Jonathan Black)
Based on Emmerich's growing reputation, a number of figures who were influential in the renewal movement of the church early in the 19th century came to visit her, among them Clemens August von Droste zu Vischering, the future Archbishop of Cologne; Johann Michael Sailer, the Bishop of Ratisbon, since 1803 the sole surviving Elector Spiritual of the Holy Roman Empire; Bernhard Overberg and authors Luise Hensel and Friedrich Stolberg.[1] Clemens von Droste, at the time still vicar‑general of the Archdiocese, called Emmerich "a special friend of God" in a letter he wrote to Stolberg.[1]