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S
Several of your arguments against what I presented, I will not argue against, because like I said, these are NOT my arguments, I only repeated views of other people that I saw around, I for example don't understand exactly the thing with "likewise" (it is just, that Paul, used that word in some unusual constructions, this is a fact... now what he meant there, I dunno).
I don't think, that we need to invent sins, I for example don't believe that pornography in internet is a sin (but I will not argue that here, it is not on-topic, and would generate heat for no good reason). Also, there are instances of what we call paedophilia today in the ancient world, some girls married even before having their menses, this does not mean that I think that it is right either, or that a men abusing a 5 year old girl is good, but I cannot say that having sex with a 13 year old girl for example, is a sin, because the bible does not condemn it, and there are proofs that this was a normal human behavior until some time ago...
I am still to find something that is wrong, and that the bible has no comment at all, even indirectly.
I don't think, that we need to invent sins, I for example don't believe that pornography in internet is a sin (but I will not argue that here, it is not on-topic, and would generate heat for no good reason). Also, there are instances of what we call paedophilia today in the ancient world, some girls married even before having their menses, this does not mean that I think that it is right either, or that a men abusing a 5 year old girl is good, but I cannot say that having sex with a 13 year old girl for example, is a sin, because the bible does not condemn it, and there are proofs that this was a normal human behavior until some time ago...
I am still to find something that is wrong, and that the bible has no comment at all, even indirectly.
L
Are you saying the Holy Spirit has never convicted you not to watch porn? It's not holy or pure....the Bible doesn't say outright, "Do not watch porn or have sex with five year olds", but it does say to leep our ways holy and blamesless before the Lord.
I don't wanna sound all preachy, but...really!? Those women are exploiting themsleves for your entertainment. Do you think tht them "sharing their bodies" with so many men is holy or pure? Then why would it be ok to get off on that? That is so sad...deepeningly sad.
As for the five year old girls, you can't believe that it's not a sin to take away a little girl's innocence and scar her for life. That's sick.
The Holy Spirit points out to us that laws written on our hearts. The Bible won't spell EVERYTHING out because it would go on forever. That's one reason we are given the Holy Spirit.
And do you think your wife or future wife would feel loved and absolutely cherished by you if she knew that you had looked at other women for your pleasure? How do you think that will make her feel?
I don't want to offend anyone and I know I'm being pretty blunt, but...my gosh. You can't be serious.
C
Speeder,
As I pointed out in my last reply to you, the idea that we need to point to some verse in the Bible in order to have moral knowledge seems absurd. (You aren’t a Clarkian by any chance, are you?)
The position you are implying—that we don’t know if something is wrong unless Scripture states it is wrong—is self-referentially incoherent. For instance: Can you point to me where in the Bible it says that all our moral knowledge is limited to what is stated in Scripture?
As Lyndies correctly points out, all of us have moral knowledge “written on the heart,” so to speak (Romans 2:14-15).
You ambiguously stated,
So does this mean you think it’s wrong or simply that you don’t know? Can you point to a Scripture verse that says it’s wrong for a 46 year old to “know” a 6 year old?
And why should we assume that unless something is condemned in Scripture that it is permissible? Why not assume the reverse: unless something is permitted in Scripture it is sin.
As for pornography, I strongly suggest you rethink your stance. First, I think we can easily build an argument from Scripture that sex outside of marriage is wrong. The Bible defines marriage as that state in which a man separates from his parents and holds fast to a woman such that the two become one flesh (Gen. 2.24; Mat. 19.5-6). This language of the two becoming one has reference to sex (“Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, ‘The two will become one flesh’” (1 Cor. 6.16)).
From here, the move is also pretty straightforward against most forms of pornography. Pornography usually involves viewing individuals perform sex. Usually (let’s be honest 90% of the time or more?) these persons are unmarried. So their act is sinful and your viewing it and taking pleasure in it is sinful. If you still want to try and justify your viewing pornography you would have to be able to confirm that the persons involved are married.
But that I would have to restrict this to married persons is absurd really. When the couple is married, it should be obvious (such that it would be ridiculous to have to state it to another Christian) that it would be sinful to watch their intimate act and take sexual pleasure in it. The Bible never portrays the public exposure of a person’s nakedness in positive light and it expressly uses public exposure of nakedness in a negative light (a very negative light). So, for example, Ezekiel 16:37 has God stating “therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness.”
Now all forms of pornography (well, that’s being simplistic for the sake of argument) involve uncovering another person’s nakedness (whether that be an individual or a couple). And Scripture nowhere depicts such an uncovering (outside of the marriage union) in a positive light. The only times we do find it recorded in Scripture it is either obviously immoral and condemned (Gen. 9) or it is a form of punishment (Ezekiel 16:37; Jer. 13:26; Hosea 3:10).
Sex is intended as a private act between a husband and wife. Pornography violates that establishment. Do you think your future wife would approve of you viewing pornography? Would you want your future daughter to participate in pornography? It’s a horrible thing really and we only justify it by searing our consciences and ignoring the broader social familial context.
But even if we ignore my above argument we would still have excellent reasons for viewing pornography as a great evil.
I think the Encyclopedia of Christianity rightly lists the pornography industry as a “sociocultural form of violence” and points out that “Women are bombarded daily in all spheres of life by pornographic depictions of women. Pornography is the practice of representation that violates the personal or corporate integrity of that which is presented. Women are reduced to sex objects to sell products or to encourage a disrespectful view of women. Pornographic representation, furthermore, is not unrelated to the alarming global rise in sex-related violence against women by torture, kidnapping, murder, and attacks by soldiers, police, and paramilitary groups” (vol. 4, 928-29).
If you need any proof of this see Anastasia Powell’s article “Configuring Consent: Emerging Technologies, Unauthorized Sexual Images and Sexual Assualt.”
In it she notes that
And here is what Michael Flood has to say in his article “The Harms of Pornography Exposure Among Children and Young People”
If you would like the references to the actual studies I can provide those.
1 Corinthians 6:18 “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.”
As I pointed out in my last reply to you, the idea that we need to point to some verse in the Bible in order to have moral knowledge seems absurd. (You aren’t a Clarkian by any chance, are you?)
The position you are implying—that we don’t know if something is wrong unless Scripture states it is wrong—is self-referentially incoherent. For instance: Can you point to me where in the Bible it says that all our moral knowledge is limited to what is stated in Scripture?
As Lyndies correctly points out, all of us have moral knowledge “written on the heart,” so to speak (Romans 2:14-15).
You ambiguously stated,
So does this mean you think it’s wrong or simply that you don’t know? Can you point to a Scripture verse that says it’s wrong for a 46 year old to “know” a 6 year old?
And why should we assume that unless something is condemned in Scripture that it is permissible? Why not assume the reverse: unless something is permitted in Scripture it is sin.
As for pornography, I strongly suggest you rethink your stance. First, I think we can easily build an argument from Scripture that sex outside of marriage is wrong. The Bible defines marriage as that state in which a man separates from his parents and holds fast to a woman such that the two become one flesh (Gen. 2.24; Mat. 19.5-6). This language of the two becoming one has reference to sex (“Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, ‘The two will become one flesh’” (1 Cor. 6.16)).
From here, the move is also pretty straightforward against most forms of pornography. Pornography usually involves viewing individuals perform sex. Usually (let’s be honest 90% of the time or more?) these persons are unmarried. So their act is sinful and your viewing it and taking pleasure in it is sinful. If you still want to try and justify your viewing pornography you would have to be able to confirm that the persons involved are married.
But that I would have to restrict this to married persons is absurd really. When the couple is married, it should be obvious (such that it would be ridiculous to have to state it to another Christian) that it would be sinful to watch their intimate act and take sexual pleasure in it. The Bible never portrays the public exposure of a person’s nakedness in positive light and it expressly uses public exposure of nakedness in a negative light (a very negative light). So, for example, Ezekiel 16:37 has God stating “therefore, behold, I will gather all your lovers with whom you took pleasure, all those you loved and all those you hated. I will gather them against you from every side and will uncover your nakedness to them, that they may see all your nakedness.”
Now all forms of pornography (well, that’s being simplistic for the sake of argument) involve uncovering another person’s nakedness (whether that be an individual or a couple). And Scripture nowhere depicts such an uncovering (outside of the marriage union) in a positive light. The only times we do find it recorded in Scripture it is either obviously immoral and condemned (Gen. 9) or it is a form of punishment (Ezekiel 16:37; Jer. 13:26; Hosea 3:10).
Sex is intended as a private act between a husband and wife. Pornography violates that establishment. Do you think your future wife would approve of you viewing pornography? Would you want your future daughter to participate in pornography? It’s a horrible thing really and we only justify it by searing our consciences and ignoring the broader social familial context.
But even if we ignore my above argument we would still have excellent reasons for viewing pornography as a great evil.
I think the Encyclopedia of Christianity rightly lists the pornography industry as a “sociocultural form of violence” and points out that “Women are bombarded daily in all spheres of life by pornographic depictions of women. Pornography is the practice of representation that violates the personal or corporate integrity of that which is presented. Women are reduced to sex objects to sell products or to encourage a disrespectful view of women. Pornographic representation, furthermore, is not unrelated to the alarming global rise in sex-related violence against women by torture, kidnapping, murder, and attacks by soldiers, police, and paramilitary groups” (vol. 4, 928-29).
If you need any proof of this see Anastasia Powell’s article “Configuring Consent: Emerging Technologies, Unauthorized Sexual Images and Sexual Assualt.”
In it she notes that
“Internet and mobile technologies are indeed also tools utilised for the mass distribution and consumption of women as sexual objects through mainstream and amateur pornography, as well as the direct sexual exploitation and abuse of young women and girls (Barak, 2005; Hughes, 2002, 2000)” and that “much has been written in relation to the violence and exploitation of women and girls in the production of pornography, including internet pornography (Hughes, 2000, 2002, 2003; Jeffreys, 1997) … some researchers have observed an increase in the level of violent and nonconsensual sex represented in internet pornography as compared to other pornography mediums (Barron & Kimmel, 2000; Onyejekwe, 2005) … In addition, amateur pornography websites are also used for the distribution of covertly obtained, or voyeur, sex videos and still images” (79).
And here is what Michael Flood has to say in his article “The Harms of Pornography Exposure Among Children and Young People”
“15–18-year olds in a Swedish study who had ever watched a pornographic film were more likely than others to be less ashamed about masturbation and to see prostitution, pornography and sex without love as ‘okay’ (Johansson and Hammarén, 2007). In experimental studies, young men (and to some extent women) exposed to large amounts of explicit sexual content often become more supportive of and less offended by such material (Thornburgh and Lin, 2002). … Both correlational and experimental studies fi nd that adolescents’ and young adults’ exposure to media which sexualises girls and women is associated with greater acceptance of stereotyped and sexist notions about gender and sexual roles, including notions of women as sexual objects (Frable et al., 1997; Ward, 2002; Ward et al., 2005; Ward and Friedman, 2006). Exposure also infl uences how men treat and respond to real women in subsequent interactions (APA, 2007) (391). … A wide range of studies on the effects of pornography have been conducted among young people aged 18 to 25, as well as older populations. Across these, there is consistent and reliable evidence that exposure to pornography is related to male sexual aggression against women (Flood and Hamilton, 2003a)” (391-392).
If you would like the references to the actual studies I can provide those.
1 Corinthians 6:18 “Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.”
Here is my view. I have not read all of the responses, just the first page as I'm busy, mother in law comes today. I disagree with the young man on page one who said there is no such thing as gay christians... thats like saying there's no such thing as alcoholic christians, porn addict christians, gossiping chrisitans... you get where I'm going. At the beginning of my walk with the Lord I justified my sin and was never convicted of it by others. The Holy Spirit within me did and does continue to convict me when I am in err. It is up to me to love my brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of where they are in their walk with the Lord. Yes they will try to justify their sin. I personally know & love 3 gay people (and their partners) One of which is "Christian". My condemnation of them does a great disservice to our Lord who gave me a disgusting fornicator, murder, blasphemer... just to name 3 of my offenses, such grace. How dare I think that I am better than them.
Also with respect to the one who said that in the Bible it was about rape... NO not always... in sodom it was not always about rape just because the story was one where they wanted to rape. Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time. I agree with God that it is not right or natural I think it originated in sin, in this world, not with God. I also believe the Bible and KNOW that the word of God is the same today as yesterday & has not passed away just because it isnt all good and fluffy according to what I want to do in my life.
I have my own theory about sexual abuse as each & every one of the gay people who I know suffered this as children. Its a theory... I'm sure there are exceptions. All I know is when they receive the Lord He will start convicting them of what they are doing... I dont need to all I need to do is show them the love that is soooo lacking from so many members of our community.
It should be our great purpose to try to bring others into knowledge of Christ. If they think Christ rejects them why would they seek him.
I thank God for all of the beautiful loving Christians in my life who showed me love when I only deserved judgement and condemnation... To look upon another and Love them no matter what their sin, that they may want the Love of the Lord in their life as well... How wonderful is that.
Also with respect to the one who said that in the Bible it was about rape... NO not always... in sodom it was not always about rape just because the story was one where they wanted to rape. Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time. I agree with God that it is not right or natural I think it originated in sin, in this world, not with God. I also believe the Bible and KNOW that the word of God is the same today as yesterday & has not passed away just because it isnt all good and fluffy according to what I want to do in my life.
I have my own theory about sexual abuse as each & every one of the gay people who I know suffered this as children. Its a theory... I'm sure there are exceptions. All I know is when they receive the Lord He will start convicting them of what they are doing... I dont need to all I need to do is show them the love that is soooo lacking from so many members of our community.
It should be our great purpose to try to bring others into knowledge of Christ. If they think Christ rejects them why would they seek him.
I thank God for all of the beautiful loving Christians in my life who showed me love when I only deserved judgement and condemnation... To look upon another and Love them no matter what their sin, that they may want the Love of the Lord in their life as well... How wonderful is that.
S
Ok, I will repeat:
I don't think that internet porn, is inherently wrong, or a sin, it may have things that are wrong, and things that are not wrong, but I WILL NOT discuss porn here, now on this topic.
And have you read what I said about pedophilia? I said that it IS wrong, with little children, because it is abuse (and that the bible condemns), but IT IS NOT, with WOMEN that happen to be below the legal age. Like, a 17 years old girl for example.
So, I will write in simple terms, to avoid lots of attacks on me for wrong reasons again:
SEX WITH LITTLE CHILDS, IS WRONG.
SEX WITH WOMEN (not CHILD), BELOW 18, IS NOT WRONG.
Now, any other objections about what I said, but the porn part? (that I will not discuss here, if someone want to make a topic about it, I may discuss there when I have time).
I don't think that internet porn, is inherently wrong, or a sin, it may have things that are wrong, and things that are not wrong, but I WILL NOT discuss porn here, now on this topic.
And have you read what I said about pedophilia? I said that it IS wrong, with little children, because it is abuse (and that the bible condemns), but IT IS NOT, with WOMEN that happen to be below the legal age. Like, a 17 years old girl for example.
So, I will write in simple terms, to avoid lots of attacks on me for wrong reasons again:
SEX WITH LITTLE CHILDS, IS WRONG.
SEX WITH WOMEN (not CHILD), BELOW 18, IS NOT WRONG.
Now, any other objections about what I said, but the porn part? (that I will not discuss here, if someone want to make a topic about it, I may discuss there when I have time).
i guess i should go back & read pages 2 3 & 4 to see exactly why, if you are indeed speaking to me... why you feel i've attacked you. I've never even met you or read any of your posts. As stated in my post... i only read page 1. Thank you & God bless you & I'm sorry you took my opinion as an attack upon your person.
C
I figured that you thought it was wrong. That's why I asked for a Bible verse that says it is wrong. Now, you hint at how you might try to do this by saying "it is abuse". But who says that it is abuse?! The Bible doesn't mention it as abuse. The Bible is silent about it. So you are bringing in extra-scriptural premises to arrive at the idea that such pedophilia is wrong.
But, as I already pointed out, this is the same thing I can do for arguing against pornography and lesbianism and a number of other things. That's been my point the whole time...
But, as I already pointed out, this is the same thing I can do for arguing against pornography and lesbianism and a number of other things. That's been my point the whole time...
L
Ok, Speeder, sorry for reading what you wrote the wrong way. But I still disagree about the underage thing because girls that young are NOT ready for it. During Biblical times, I know girls were married at like 12 or 13, but the life expentancy was different then...the way of life was so different. Just because it ws ok then doesn't make it ok now, though, because times change and people change. Yopung girls aren't prepared for that sort of thing now.
S
Imoss, I was not talking with you... (In fact, I did not even saw your post... :/)
About underage being wrong, or not: You cannot use a law, and a number, to define the maturity of someone, I saw 13 yo girls, that were mature enough to be mother, and nearly being mature enough to be even a grandmother...
Yet, I have some 24 year old friends, that are a complete failure, that think that they are too young to have responsability, and so keep doing stupid things over and over again (like, having sex with half of the world... or hunting opposite sex people, instead of hunting a job...)
My mother knew my father when she was 15, and although she was below 18, she was the one responsible for my uncle (that was 5), today he still rely on her for several things, and he relied even more when he was a child.
So, like I said, things are not inherently wrong, there are some things that are imprudence, and thus become somehow wrong because of that, but you cannot say: "x is a sin" if the bible does not say it, because sometimes, x has problems, sometimes not, it is like driving a car, you can kill someone with it, or save a life, taking someone to the hospital, or you can just use it as a normal means of transportation, meaning that it can be wrong, right, or neither.
About underage being wrong, or not: You cannot use a law, and a number, to define the maturity of someone, I saw 13 yo girls, that were mature enough to be mother, and nearly being mature enough to be even a grandmother...
Yet, I have some 24 year old friends, that are a complete failure, that think that they are too young to have responsability, and so keep doing stupid things over and over again (like, having sex with half of the world... or hunting opposite sex people, instead of hunting a job...)
My mother knew my father when she was 15, and although she was below 18, she was the one responsible for my uncle (that was 5), today he still rely on her for several things, and he relied even more when he was a child.
So, like I said, things are not inherently wrong, there are some things that are imprudence, and thus become somehow wrong because of that, but you cannot say: "x is a sin" if the bible does not say it, because sometimes, x has problems, sometimes not, it is like driving a car, you can kill someone with it, or save a life, taking someone to the hospital, or you can just use it as a normal means of transportation, meaning that it can be wrong, right, or neither.
C
I have ignored the 13 year old example because you admitted that it was wrong to have sex with "little children." So even though you didn't define what a "little child" is, you still said that it was wrong. And I assume you think it is wrong for a 46 year old to have sex with a 6 year old.
That's all I need for my argument to work. I don't need to worry about a 13 year old or the 15 year old. We don't try to establish principles of morality by looking at the ambiguous or unclear cases but by looking at the clear cases.
Now you keep wanting to bring it back to the teenage girl, because you find that to be ambiguous. But the Bible doesn't say (explicitly) that it's wrong for a 46 year old to have a relationship with a 6 year old and that is sufficient for me to prove my point.
That's all I need for my argument to work. I don't need to worry about a 13 year old or the 15 year old. We don't try to establish principles of morality by looking at the ambiguous or unclear cases but by looking at the clear cases.
Now you keep wanting to bring it back to the teenage girl, because you find that to be ambiguous. But the Bible doesn't say (explicitly) that it's wrong for a 46 year old to have a relationship with a 6 year old and that is sufficient for me to prove my point.
Yeah lets just allow 13 year old's to be mothers and fathers when they aren't even old enough to work. How will they pay for taking care of that child? what about school? they are a child them self. There's so much wrong with has been said here. It's not just a matter of maturity, it goes deeper than that. I don't see how anyone could honestly say such things. This world needs to really wake up. I'm so disappointed and honestly sickened by what I see from the majority of those that claim to be, and even are Christians.