Gay Christian?

[VikkiKate89]

if its to save 6 billion lives then yes even if it mean being looked at as an evil man because ill be sacrificing myself so that others can live

I agree with wolf however I can pretty much promise you that forcing someone to have sex against their will in order to save lives is a situation I can pretty much promise will never happen because A) There's a lot of people willing to have sex out there, some people make a profession of it, and B) Unlike condoms, there are stronger arguments against rape and a more general agreement that it's wrong, and also unlike condoms, there is no medical benefit to getting raped. Period.

Can you really compare the act of rape (really envision what rape actually is; I can tell you it's a HORRIBLE experience), with the usage of condoms? Do you actually believe the Vatican were doing the right thing when they denounced the people of Africa for using condoms and despite the fact that without them they would be dooming their people by not allowing them to take precautions that could actually let them significantly decrease the numbers of people they pass the disease on to? I know the pope eventually changed his stance on that, saying condom usage is a lesser evil than spreading HIV/AIDS to another person, but there are still people who agree with his before statement where he, in my opinion, chose to turn a blind eye on their situation. Not the first time he's chosen that course of action on a controversial issue either.

There is one thing I definitely remember back when I actually believed the Bible and that was that God was well aware that humans will be humans and while we will make choices that he didn't agree with he provided ways of dealing with it. He says he hates divorce, but he still gave instructions on how to handle the situation should it ever happen. He said it was better the be single but he still encouraged marriage because he knew people desire companionship. I'm pretty sure that same God would be understanding of people infected with STD's using condoms as a means to protect their spouses. In a country that actually taught its people that sex with a virgin cures AIDS which then lead to infant rape becoming a huge problem, do you really think giving them condoms and educating them on actual prevention is the same as raping someone? In a perfect world we could get everyone to be abstinent and save it till marriage, but this isn't that world and we can't ignore that fact.

 

[Maddog]

So the people of Africa who are trying to get condoms so they can make love with their spouses without spreading AIDS to them are evil? Or any other married couple with a similar scenario for that matter? Didn't know taking precautions to protect the lives of those you love was evil.

Jimmy covered most of what I would have said. However, you do raise an interesting question on whether one's intention affects the morality of the act ie. in your example, artificial contraception would be being used to protect the health of their spouse instead of holding a postive intention to thwart conception.

Now, there are some actions in which the morality is influenced by the intention behind it. However, these would be actions which are not intrinsically immoral. For example, hitting a child for the sake of discipline versus hitting a child because you get a sadistic thrill out of it. However, as far as I know (you'll have to forgive my lack of qualifications in moral theology) contraception does not fall into that category, since by its design it impedes and/or thwarts conception, and so its use would always be evil regardless of one's intention.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I agree with wolf however I can pretty much promise you that forcing someone to have sex against their will in order to save lives is a situation I can pretty much promise will never happen because A) There's a lot of people willing to have sex out there, some people make a profession of it, and B) Unlike condoms, there are stronger arguments against rape and a more general agreement that it's wrong, and also unlike condoms, there is no medical benefit to getting raped. Period.

I think you may have overlooked my point. I tried to make it somewhat clear.

If something is wrong, and you live under a view of morality that says X is always wrong, regardless of consequence. Can you morally do whatever X is?

I explained that the usage of condoms to reduce infection rates, while noble, is humanism. I said I didn't know exactly where I stand on the issue of condom usage. I did state however, that if it WERE wrong to use condoms regardless of situation, it would be just that. Morally wrong.


The comparison to the rape scenario, was to demonstrate this principle. That commiting a wrong, doesn't make a right.

 

[Maddog]

Can you really compare the act of rape (really envision what rape actually is; I can tell you it's a HORRIBLE experience), with the usage of condoms?

That's like saying can you compare murder and adultery. We might be able to agree that murder is worse than adultery, but the immorality of adultery remains. Same thing here. So yes, we can draw comparisions in a moral sense, because both are wrong.

Do you actually believe the Vatican were doing the right thing when they denounced the people of Africa for using condoms and despite the fact that without them they would be dooming their people by not allowing them to take precautions that could actually let them significantly decrease the numbers of people they pass the disease on to?

Do you know what a loaded question is?

I assume you meant 'were the Vatican right to hold fast to the traditional, sound, and (until relatively recently) universal Christian teachings on sexual ethics'. To that question, I answer 'yes'.

The African AIDS problem cannot be solved by throwing condoms at it. Fidelity in marriage is the answer (something which the wide availaibility of contraceptives would do nothing to help, and perhaps even impede).

 

[VikkiKate89]

I think you may have overlooked my point. I tried to make it somewhat clear.

If something is wrong, and you live under a view of morality that says X is always wrong, regardless of consequence. Can you morally do whatever X is?

I explained that the usage of condoms to reduce infection rates, while noble, is humanism. I said I didn't know exactly where I stand on the issue of condom usage. I did state however, that if it WERE wrong to use condoms regardless of situation, it would be just that. Morally wrong.


The comparison to the rape scenario, was to demonstrate this principle. That commiting a wrong, doesn't make a right.

I think there are more areas of gray than people would like to believe, which I tried to illustrate in the later paragraphs of my post you've quoted. I think God would be more furious in Christians willingly depriving sinful people with a means of helping save their lives, than he would be if people use condoms. And while I can understand the arguments against some forms of contraceptives since they can kill off the start of a human life, I see absolutely no reason for the arguments against condoms which do not do that. Yes they prevent the creation of a new life, but they're not the same as an abortion and if you have to make contraception a sin then the only argument for it is the fact that it can kill off what many will argue is human life, aka murder. But condoms do not do that. Aside from the documents from the Vatican stating that sex without the intent of procreation is a sin, I don't know where these arguments keep coming from, and I sure as heck can't find anything Biblical to back them up. And again, I believe they come from a very flawed way of thinking.

 

[jimmydiggs]

@Vikki

I don't know all the biblical arguements for/against condoms being a sin, one deals with Onan.

I can however ask you this.

What is the ultimate purpose of Abortion?

What is the ultimate motivation for abortion?

What is the ultimate purpose of Birth Control?

What is the ultimate motivation for Birth Control?

 

[Maddog]

Aside from the documents from the Vatican stating that sex without the intent of procreation is a sin, I don't know where these arguments keep coming from, and I sure as heck can't find anything Biblical to back them up. And again, I believe they come from a very flawed way of thinking.

It comes through reason and an understanding of Natural Law (to which I've tried to articulate a few times in this thread). If you recall, the original subject of this thread was homosexuality. If Natural Law reasoning condemns homosexual sex (the immorality of which also happens to be taught in Scripture), then it must also condemn contraception. I can't see any way round it without being logically inconsistent.

 

[VikkiKate89]

@Vikki

I don't know all the biblical arguements for/against condoms being a sin, one deals with Onan.

I can however ask you this.

What is the ultimate purpose of Abortion?

What is the ultimate motivation for abortion?

What is the ultimate purpose of Birth Control?

What is the ultimate motivation for Birth Control?

Abortion and many types of birth control kill off the fertilized egg which many consider to be the start of a human life, therefore killing off a human being. I won't argue for birth control pills because while I disagree with the reasoning against using them, I can see valid points in those arguments. Condoms, which I will stick to, don't do that. They are both meant for preventing pregnancy, but of the 2 of them, only one of them goes to the extreme of actually killing off the start of a human life. That, in my opinion, makes them completely different.

It has nothing to do with what they were intended to do, but HOW they do it. If two people wanted world peace and one of them went about it by magically abolishing war and managed to eliminate weapons and change human nature so we weren't jerks, while the other man simply nuked the earth and did away with humanity, therefore ensuring war never happens again, does that then mean that both of them are the same since they both had the same intentions? Absolutely not. Condoms don't mess with female hormones or do anything that could cause the female body to accidentally miscarry, and they don't kill off a fertilized egg. To say they're just like an abortion because they were intended to prevent reproduction I think is an unfair judgment.

Also I'm taking into account that condoms aren't just for preventing pregnancy but also the transmission of STD's, whereas abortion is strictly for killing off a human life before it can be born and has no other purpose. Birth control pills have other uses as well, and I know people that are on them for reasons that aren't the prevention of reproduction, but again I'm not going to argue about the pill.

 

[KisDawn]

Also I'm taking into account that condoms aren't just for preventing pregnancy but also the transmission of STD's, whereas abortion is strictly for killing off a human life before it can be born and has no other purpose. Birth control pills have other uses as well, and I know people that are on them for reasons that aren't the prevention of reproduction, but again I'm not going to argue about the pill.

However too a lot of abortions happen because people want to have a kid however if they do they will die, or the fetus just doesn't have the ability to survive on it's own. I know there are protest against planned parenthood and this one guy videotaped his reaction to it when his wife was getting the abortion. The fetus basically had a bunch of organs missing so instead of going through that pain they decided to end it early. They just don't care at all about the reasons behind it. And having an abortion isn't like going to your doctors to have a tooth removed it's traumatic and people making a bad situation even worse are horrid. The ends here don't all justify the means.

It comes through reason and an understanding of Natural Law (to which I've tried to articulate a few times in this thread). If you recall, the original subject of this thread was homosexuality. If Natural Law reasoning condemns homosexual sex (the immorality of which also happens to be taught in Scripture), then it must also condemn contraception. I can't see any way round it without being logically inconsistent.

The problem is you don't know natural Law only God does. Also humans aren't only male or female so did God make a mistake making them too? So by your logic people who are intersex just what should not be with anyone?

Because I'm not convinced that any intrinsically immoral act is ever justified, even if it were to potentially save someone's life, but that speaks nothing to whether or not I value human life. But also, I don't believe that there is any sitiuation in which a human would be forced by moral necessity to make such a decision. There is always a 'third option'.

In a perfect world yes, there would be other options however we don't live in a perfect world. It's like take someone who by their religious convictions won't take their kid to a hospital to get the medicine they need to survive. They're kid would in this scenario die if they didn't get treatment soon and if they went through the courts it would be too late. Would you lie to them and say your someone else so you can sneak the kid the medicine? I would no questions asked because of the greater good.

If you've been following my train of thought, I expect you already know that I would understand such a thing as a grave evil.

Yes I do get that you feel this way, and to be honest it makes me a bit sick. There are kids all over in foster care and really bad situations and if they can have a loving family a place to finnaly feel like they are safe then that's where they need to be regardless. Like with me I am with my family in an "unnatural" way, my mom didn't have me. However God found a way to have me be with the family I'm meant to be with. I'm adopted since I was a few days old, and my parents if they were both girls or both boys as long as I was loved I would be happy. Love makes a family a family, not genetics... Also if you are going to use that rape defense statistically the vast majority of men who sexually assault other men identify themselves as heterosexul. So perhaps giving baby boys to gay male couples should be seen as preventative measures. (Also no I'm not calling all heterosexual men rapist I'm saying this to show the obscurity in that argument.)

Everyone who uses it is committing a moral evil. It's not the populist answer, I know, but there's no need for me to pull my punches here is there?

I've been off birth control after years of being on it, and now that I'm off I need to medicate myself a lot with pain pills just to deal. You take the pills to help you sleep then because they also have caffeine in them to make them more effective you can't sleep. So unless you are a woman and have a uterus, it's rather easy to stand on a pedestal and make demands that don't influence your body at all. If that's the case then all guys even accused of rape need to be castrated. (again an example of why this is a stupid idea. I figured it would be good to show you how it isn't fair for me to say that since I don't have male bits.)

No, but neither is it the hedonistic need to be close to someone as you're postulating.

The need for someone else is a human need. They have proved through studies what happens to babes who never experience a humans touch they die because of failure to thrive. God made us to need each other, unless you think that's wrong? Then why would it be a genetic necessity in order to not go insane? (That's what happens to people who are isolated from everyone.)

When I said that the primary end of sex was reproduction, I was referring to the act itself, regardless of the participants' intentions. One need not enter into marriage with the specific intention of having children, all that is required is that one remains open, in spirit and in practice, to the possibility.

Every couple feels that way, even if they don't want kids. Being a heterosexual couple isn't any different from a gay couple. Also I really don't think people should live their lives like the Duggars, the fact that she keeps having kids over and over again even after doctors told her that she needs to space them out is why her last child Josie needed as much medical attention that she did. Who knows what kind of mental issues she's going to have later. Part of being a responsible human is making sure you can properly take care of the children you have. We don't live in a time where a large amount of kids die from preventable disease at least in the western world so because of that change in our environment we also need to change our mind sets to be responsible human beings.

You've thrown me on this one, because, at face value, I agree with this statement. You're understanding of what this entails in practice must differ significantly from mine, I assume, so feel free to explain what you mean.

It means I'm sick of the amount of hate that people spew in the name of God and we have already lost too many people because they just couldn't take it anymore. That's why this crap and that's what it is crap needs to end. Being a Christian I see this and if you don't get what it means to be kind to your fellow brothers and sisters then that's on you.

 

[JimM1228]

The problem is you don't know natural Law only God does. Also humans aren't only male or female so did God make a mistake making them too? So by your logic people who are intersex just what should not be with anyone?

i dunno about the intersex part, however we do know natural law.
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Heb 10:16.
God made great effort to show us his laws. and now a days it is our own judgment of what these laws SHOULD mean that cloud his standing of it.

 

[Grizzly_Bare]

How can I put this.... Our flesh loves sin, and craves it... Our Flesh and Our spirit are at war every day (Gal 5:16-17 "So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.") Therefore which ever u feel more will LIVE and the one you starve will DIE. So by a homosexual accepting the lie that he was "born this way" they are feeling the flesh.

Homosexuality is a sin like any other. There's no "sin scale", Sin is sin in God eyes.... and I do not believe God created people as homosexuals. Sex is a gift to the married couple, and it's how we as humans reproduce.... so the fact that 2 men or 2 woman can't reproduce is enough evidence that God wouldn't have made the individuals gay. Homosexual relationships can't bare any fruit... and we all know how Jesus feels about a vine that can't bare fruit. (John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit")

A lot of homosexuals that I've talked to say that they feel in their HEARTS that this is how they were created, but Jeremiah 17:9 says "The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. & Jesus said in Matthew 15:19-20 " For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person..." Therefore if feeling that homosexuality comes from the heart justifies the sin... than a murder can say "I don't think I did anything wrong, because I was just following my heart" , so can an adulterer, a liar, a gossip, a thief... right?

Point is... The word of God CLEARLY states it's stand on homosexuality, but people are going to try to bend and twist the word to try and cover themselves. Ur never gonna find a homosexual that's going to acknowledge that their lifestyle is a sin (Proverbs 21:2 "Every man’s way is right in his own eyes, But the LORD weighs the hearts"). ... because bottom line is... THEY ENJOY THEIR SIN. We all sin & some of us struggle with certain sins more than other and the reason is because Sin is pleasurable to the flesh. The only way to break that cycle is to truly repent ... TURN AWAY from the sin... and seek God in Prayer in the secret place. Proverbs 21:1 says The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes... Do you really thing he can't change the heart of a homosexual?

 

[Grizzly_Bare]

Therefore which ever u FEED* more will LIVE and the one you starve will DIE. So by a homosexual accepting the lie that he was "born this way" they are FEEDING* the flesh... so those feelings only get stronger.

Sorry about the typos .. I tried to change them when I realized them but it passed the 5 minute editing time limit

 

[angelos]

The African AIDS problem cannot be solved by throwing condoms at it. .

I know this is serious but I had to laugh at that

 

[KisDawn]

i dunno about the intersex part, however we do know natural law.
"This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Heb 10:16.
God made great effort to show us his laws. and now a days it is our own judgment of what these laws SHOULD mean that cloud his standing of it.

5-ARD causes males to look female because they can't convert testosterone to dihydrotestosterone which is the form you need in order to gain secondary sexual characteristics.

Androgen insensitivity syndrome the person physically looks female however they have an XY karyotype. This is because when they were exposed to androgens even as a fetus and again once they hit puberty they don't respond to it. Normally when this happens the fetus would become male.

There is also Klinefelter's syndrome where someone is born XXY who have noticeable breast.

There is also the case where people have tissue from both ovarian and testicular tissue. This can happen in a case of fraternal twins that merge into one, also in two sperm fertilizing one egg. The condition is rare however rare doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Homosexuality is a sin like any other. There's no "sin scale", Sin is sin in God eyes.... and I do not believe God created people as homosexuals. Sex is a gift to the married couple, and it's how we as humans reproduce.... so the fact that 2 men or 2 woman can't reproduce is enough evidence that God wouldn't have made the individuals gay. Homosexual relationships can't bare any fruit... and we all know how Jesus feels about a vine that can't bare fruit. (John 15:1-2 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener.2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit")

In this logic my dad should have divorced my mom because she can't have kids (I'm adopted). Once that's it you should no longer be married because you can't have any fruit? That seriously is your argument? That too everyone who is infertal guess they can't get married either since having kids "naturally" is out of the question. I think marriage is something much more then that, but that's just me. -___-

A lot of homosexuals that I've talked to say that they feel in their HEARTS that this is how they were created, but Jeremiah 17:9 says"The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked. & Jesus said in Matthew 15:19-20 " For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.20 These are what defile a person..." Therefore if feeling that homosexuality comes from the heart justifies the sin... than a murder can say "I don't think I did anything wrong, because I was just following my heart" , so can an adulterer, a liar, a gossip, a thief... right?

Actually a lot of the time it's because as a fetus they get different hormones which for some people change their brain structures to look more like the opposite sex. So you'd consider the differences in brain structures to be what a choice? Trust me no one would choose to be different especially if being different you get reactions that are hateful and even cause some people to kill you over it. Using Gods words to justify your own hate then say no it was God who feels this way, it's really gross.

The only thing you have to do is believe in Jesus, he took the punishment for anything God really does consider to be a sin which no matter how much you manipulate scripture it's the truth. His message was one of love and to love everyone, it makes me sad to see it twisted in such a way.

 

[dmdave17]

No such thing as a Gay Christian....

Also, I have heard many testimonies of gay Christians who tried to go through therapy to "get cured" and they ended up so depressed because it wasn't something they chose or wanted.

A lot of Christians assume that it's a lifestyle choice, but that's not what I hear from people who are gay. Why would they choose this if they don't believe it's right or if they want to "be cured", or if they are being threatened, ostricised, or picked on for it? Why would they choose something like that?

God makes us all on purpose just the way we are, so why are people like this if they don't want it? If it's really who they are? And from a younge age. I learned in psychology that it's already done by the age of three. Three year olds don't think "Gee, I'm gonna be gay now!" You know?

It just doesn't make sense to me.

Scripture doesn't flat out give the answers, and that is why I want personal stories and thoughts. (Do feel free to back up what you believe with scripture, though (anyone). I'm just saying that it isn't so clear-cut as that.

And I don't mean to offend anyone. Like I said, I'm just really confused and looking for answers.... by Lyndies

Above, we have the two points of view on this subject. Unfortunately they are both true within their own perspective. There is no doubt how God feels about homosexuality. "Do not have sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman; that is detestable." (Leviticus 18:22) And then "If a man has sexual relations with a man as one does with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They are to be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads." (Leviticus 20:13) Not much "wiggle room" there.

However, Scripture also tells us that God forgives all sins through the blood of Jesus Christ. Therefore, we have to conclude that a gay person who repents is forgiven. The operative word here is "repents".
There are many stories of persons who were "cured" of their homosexuality out there. We just never hear about them. And the myth that homosexuality is "ingrained" in a person by the age of three is pure "bull dingy". There is no hard scientific evidence that supports this postulation. Again, this is one more example of "science" caving to a particular special interest group.

Those persons who claim they "just can't shake the lifestyle" just don't want to badly enough. As we have discussed many times before, when you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you become a new creation who wants to emulate our Lord by following his laws.

Therefore, while it is not our place to judge homosexuals, unfortunately rickhaines' statement is technically correct. There is no such thing as a gay Christian.

 

[Maddog]

The problem is you don't know natural Law only God does.

No, Natural Law is accessible to all who possess the faculty of reason.

Also humans aren't only male or female so did God make a mistake making them too?

We live in a fallen world, and so it is imperfect. It's a mistake, or an abnormlity, yes, but it's not God's mistake.

So by your logic people who are intersex just what should not be with anyone?

An interesting question, and one to which I am unqualified to give a definitive answer. But your suggestion seems wise; holy chastity would be my advice to them too.

In a perfect world yes, there would be other options however we don't live in a perfect world.

Um...in a perfect world these things would never actually happen. But no, I stand by my original statement; I don't believe anyone is ever compelled by moral necessity to perform an intrinsically immoral act. God is faithful and just and He would never require such a thing.

Yes I do get that you feel this way, and to be honest it makes me a bit sick. There are kids all over in foster care and really bad situations and if they can have a loving family a place to finnaly feel like they are safe then that's where they need to be regardless.

I believe a child ought to be brought up in a morally stable environment. I can't imagine a homosexual couple being able to provide such, by virtue of the fact that they are in an intrinsically deviant and unnatural relationship.

I've been off birth control after years of being on it, and now that I'm off I need to medicate myself a lot with pain pills just to deal. You take the pills to help you sleep then because they also have caffeine in them to make them more effective you can't sleep. So unless you are a woman and have a uterus, it's rather easy to stand on a pedestal and make demands that don't influence your body at all.

Who said living morally was easy? And I'm sure you know well enough that one need not have actual experience of a given situation to make a moral judgement. Again, all that is required is the faculty of reason. And don't be so short sighted as to assume that these 'demands' don't also have major implications in my life as well. I struggle with living up to these standards too; as i said earlier, we each have our cross to bear.

If that's the case then all guys even accused of rape need to be castrated. (again an example of why this is a stupid idea. I figured it would be good to show you how it isn't fair for me to say that since I don't have male bits.)

You chose a poor example; you think a man saying that those accused of rape ought to be castrated would be any more palatable?

But your conclusion is false as well. There are many things it would be perfectly fair for you to say with regards to the male body (and male genitalia). Again, just because you have no specific experience of a situation it doesn't disqualify you from making moral judgements about it.

The need for someone else is a human need. They have proved through studies what happens to babes who never experience a humans touch they die because of failure to thrive. God made us to need each other, unless you think that's wrong?Then why would it be a genetic necessity in order to not go insane? (That's what happens to people who are isolated from everyone.)

I was referring exclusively to sexual/romantic relationships. A celibate person can still have friends and family, you know.

Every couple feels that way, even if they don't want kids.

Explain how one can truly be open to conception whilst wearing a condom.

Being a heterosexual couple isn't any different from a gay couple.

Actually there are substantive differences, and I wonder why you don't see that (my apologies if that sounds patronising, it's not my intention).

Part of being a responsible human is making sure you can properly take care of the children you have.

Of course it is. But we don't need contraception to make plans. I'm sure you're aware that women have natural fetility cycles. But even so, we ought to always be ready to receive if God decides to bring forth a new life.

It means I'm sick of the amount of hate that people spew in the name of God and we have already lost too many people because they just couldn't take it anymore. That's why this crap and that's what it is crap needs to end.

Are you referring to this thread? I haven't seen much, if any, hate, and I've not dispensed any myself. Perhaps you're misinterpreting certain things as hateful when the intention behind the comments was far from it?

Being a Christian I see this and if you don't get what it means to be kind to your fellow brothers and sisters then that's on you.

I try to be kind, and I generally don't bring these sorts of issues up myself. However, if someone asks a question, I'm going to answer it as honestly as I can.

 

[Maddog]

In this logic my dad should have divorced my mom because she can't have kids (I'm adopted). Once that's it you should no longer be married because you can't have any fruit? That seriously is your argument? That too everyone who is infertal guess they can't get married either since having kids "naturally" is out of the question.

If it helps, I don't think that's what he's saying, and I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that either.

 

[christian_guy]

okay here i go, walking ito the fire lol.

i think what people are forgetting is that God will defend his own cause. if you are gay and a christian then focause on god only, he will make you who he wants you to be. it my personal opinion but what i see with all the pray the gay away people is that they are conforming to societies wishes, not god's. i've heread testimonies of gay people turning strait all the time so i know a person can change (exactly how i do not know). anothier thing people need to know is that society confuses feelings of wanting to be with the same sex as always being gay, this is not true. there is a differince between wanting to be physicaly with someone and to be with one sexualy. to be with someone physicaly means to hold hands, hug, high fives, and the such. people have perverted that as being gay and thus a lot of kids withdraw themseves from such behavior only desiering it more and begin to think they are gay for having such thoughts.

sorry for my spelling, im tierd and i cant get my thoughts out strait.

all i can say is homosexulity is a sin but the way society sees it is no where near how the bible definds it.
it's scientificly proven that a person needs to be touched at least 5 times a day to live an emotionaly healthy life. some times i wonder if a homosexual ever got enough attention fom there own sex and confuse there desiers to connect with them emotionaly (but not sexualy) as being gay?

again im just blabbing hear, what do i know

 

[christian_guy]

okay here i go, walking ito the fire lol.

i think what people are forgetting is that God will defend his own cause. if you are gay and a christian then focause on god only, he will make you who he wants you to be. it my personal opinion but what i see with all the pray the gay away people is that they are conforming to societies wishes, not god's. i've heread testimonies of gay people turning strait all the time so i know a person can change (exactly how i do not know). anothier thing people need to know is that society confuses feelings of wanting to be with the same sex as always being gay, this is not true. there is a differince between wanting to be physicaly with someone and to be with one sexualy. to be with someone physicaly means to hold hands, hug, high fives, and the such. people have perverted that as being gay and thus a lot of kids withdraw themseves from such behavior only desiering it more and begin to think they are gay for having such thoughts.

sorry for my spelling, im tierd and i cant get my thoughts out strait.

all i can say is homosexulity is a sin but the way society sees it is no where near how the bible definds it.
it's scientificly proven that a person needs to be touched at least 5 times a day to live an emotionaly healthy life. some times i wonder if a homosexual ever got enough attention fom there own sex and confuse there desiers to connect with them emotionaly (but not sexualy) as being gay?

again im just blabbing hear, what do i know

okay let me try this again. in europe & africa & other countries that arn't amarican men hold hand with eathother, kiss eachother on the lips, smak eachother on the buttox (well we do that here too but what ever) to most people these are signals that the person is gay but that is a lie. these are physical expressions of a emotional relationship that dont have sexual attraction added with them. they are friends and they touch eachother because they enjoy eachothers company. we feed ourselves with gay stereotypes that are ungodly and disort the kind of relationships god would love for us to have with eachother. sexual union is only for a man and a woman who are married. you can love a person of the same sex, just not sexualy. here is an intresting website that im trying to formulate my thoughts after (i know people im roaly sucking at this)

The History of Male Friendships | The Art of Manliness

read through it, at the beginning it may seem like they are putting down women but they arnt, they are just going through some points to help the reader recognize a larger one

people are so quick to label everything gay when it's realy not

Gay=lust, an attachment that is not of god
love= god, something that not only he does, but who he is

GAAA! this all sounds so much better in my head

the best thing i would say to a gay person is not to pray the gay away but to pray for wisdom (thats one of the things the bible says god will answer quickly and in full, that and salvation) i bet 99.9% of gays will relise that they arnt gay at all when they pray for wisdom, they just desier to be love (not sexualy but emotionaly).

 

[KisDawn]

Therefore, while it is not our place to judge homosexuals, unfortunately rickhaines' statement is technically correct. There is no such thing as a gay Christian.

First off your going by old testament law which was given to the Hebrews also in that text it's ok if your a lesbian then or a female bisexual because it only says men. If God meant woman too he would have said it.

If you are going to say well since you don't follow this rule then you aren't a Christian what rules do you break on a daily basis and think nothing of it because well it doesn't effect you or it was in the old testament?

Leviticus 19:27 Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard, if you do that well I guess you aren't Christian because you aren't following the bible.

Leviticus 11:8 Ever touch a pig or football? The same rule applies. You must not eat their meat or touch their carcasses; they are unclean for you.

What about the cloths you wear? Leviticus 19:19 'Keep my decrees. "'Do not mate different kinds of animals. "'Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. "'Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material. So all those mixed material cloths which try to find one at the store today that isn't like that your also not a Christian.

Also wearing gold which I know a lot of people do if you're a woman. 1 Timothy 2:9 I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes. I know that would get me out again because I always wear a gold ring my mom gave to me.

Too and in this economically hard time Deuteronomy 24-5 if a man has recently married, he must not be sent to war or have any other duty laid on him. For one year he is to be free to stay at home and bring happiness to the wife he has married. I see men working all the time right after they get married that also goes against the bible.

This is why God has blessed us with logic and reason to understand where the writers of the bible may have just been being a bit silly and that he really wants us to be kind and loving to each other. Also it's only Gods place to tell someone they aren't a Christian not yours, or mine.

We live in a fallen world, and so it is imperfect. It's a mistake, or an abnormlity, yes, but it's not God's mistake.
An interesting question, and one to which I am unqualified to give a definitive answer. But your suggestion seems wise; holy chastity would be my advice to them too.

Wow that's very kind of you do you also think they should join the circus? God doesn't make mistakes, these people are a reminder to use that just because we have one looking bit that doesn't define our humanity. Perhaps he does this so that people gain self awareness and learn that other people are still people too, who deserve every respect we give to everyone else.

I believe a child ought to be brought up in a morally stable environment. I can't imagine a homosexual couple being able to provide such, by virtue of the fact that they are in an intrinsically deviant and unnatural relationship.

A child should be raised by a loving family, and just like in the past people didn't let people of other races become family we have evolved to something better and not racist. Our morality has gotten much better because too we don't own slaves so I think that in time people will see how homophobia is an illogical position to have too. Also you shouldn't say God doesn't like it, you don't know Gods heart take ownership of your own hate because putting it on God who is the source of all good there is no room for hate.

Who said living morally was easy? And I'm sure you know well enough that one need not have actual experience of a given situation to make a moral judgement. Again, all that is required is the faculty of reason. And don't be so short sighted as to assume that these 'demands' don't also have major implications in my life as well. I struggle with living up to these standards too; as i said earlier, we each have our cross to bear.

You chose a poor example; you think a man saying that those accused of rape ought to be castrated would be any more palatable?

But your conclusion is false as well. There are many things it would be perfectly fair for you to say with regards to the male body (and male genitalia). Again, just because you have no specific experience of a situation it doesn't disqualify you from making moral judgements about it.

No I don't think guys at all would be ok for other people to chose what they can have done to their own bodies. So yes is it a valid argument to show the flip side of the coin so that you can at least get an understanding of what it's like to have someone take your ability to have control over your own body away would feel like. So unless you have a uterus yourself all opinions you have on it let's just say as politely as I can it's not your place to decide or to make laws governing choices in another person's body. There for your opinion is invalid, just like mine would be on when guys need to have ordered castration. I hope you understand that, if you don't I pray you never have daughters.

Explain how one can truly be open to conception whilst wearing a condom.

When you have sex it releases Oxycontin which is essential for pair bonding. Also there are studies that show if you don't have a healthy life in that way it shortens your life because the positive neurotransmitters that you get from it, and the cardio can also be a form of exorcise. That too and "conception" isn't really too good if you have aids. That's why you have to be smart about things with proper education. Too and that cycle thing doesn't work especially if the woman is irregular and kids shouldn't be an oops. That's what we call being a responsible member of society especially with the population we have we can't afford to have too much gain unless you want everyone to just use up the earths resources and then die of hunger. Wouldn't God look not so happy seeing us waste the only place he gave us to live? That's like throwing it back up in his face which isn't polite to do when your given a gift.

Are you referring to this thread? I haven't seen much, if any, hate, and I've not dispensed any myself. Perhaps you're misinterpreting certain things as hateful when the intention behind the comments was far from it?

I see a lot of what you say as hateful or misinformed this is an honest question that needs to be asked and not answered by you saying well God wouldn't do that. If the reverse was considered the norm and being heterosexual was considered against the natural law, read back the things you've said replacing heterosexual with gay and gay with heterosexual then tell me honestly would your be ok with what you said? I want you to walk a mile in another persons shoes.

okay here i go, walking ito the fire lol.
i think what people are forgetting is that God will defend his own cause. if you are gay and a christian then focause on god only, he will make you who he wants you to be. it my personal opinion but what i see with all the pray the gay away people is that they are conforming to societies wishes, not god's. i've heread testimonies of gay people turning strait all the time so i know a person can change (exactly how i do not know). anothier thing people need to know is that society confuses feelings of wanting to be with the same sex as always being gay, this is not true. there is a differince between wanting to be physicaly with someone and to be with one sexualy. to be with someone physicaly means to hold hands, hug, high fives, and the such. people have perverted that as being gay and thus a lot of kids withdraw themseves from such behavior only desiering it more and begin to think they are gay for having such thoughts.

Thank you for understanding. You love who you love as a person and not their gender. <3

BTW sorry for the long post can we double post?