THE FIRST BLAST TO AWAKE WOMEN DEGENERATE

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Dude653

Senior Member
Mar 19, 2011
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#21
The context of this verse is Paul telling the church to pray for kings and all in authority. He then proceeds to point out that he was ordained as a preacher and teacher, so he also was a person in authority.

Finally:
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.

He is not prohibiting the woman from learning, but it must be done in subjection. This is what destroyed the US education system, the kids do not learn in all subjection. You go to China, a country with a history that is ten times that of the US and they understand first and foremost you must make sure the students are in subjection.

12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Every single thing in this chapter is about being in subjection, and not usurping authority.

What would be the point of "learning in silence with all subjection" if once you have learned you weren't also to teach?

Paul did not contradict himself when he said there as no male or female in the church. In the church we have Jesus, the Lord, the head, the male in this relationship and rest of us are to be in subjection to him with our heads covered (1Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.)
. If the woman is teaching and her head is covered she is not usurping authority. If you are under the headship of the Lord and speaking "in Christ" then you are in the male in this relationship.

How many people both men and women speak their own opinions, their head is not covered, their speaking is simply confusion, opinions, self righteousness, judgemental of others, etc.

1Corinthians 11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

The teaching on this has been from idiots who don't read the word and have their own agenda. Paul said clearly women can learn (unlike other religions which wouldn't allow women into the schools) and they can pray i n the church and they can prophesy in the church. Anyone who says Paul taught differently is a liar. That said they are to learn in silence in all subjection. As a teacher in the US Public school system all of the disturbances and outbursts and speaking are a major drag on the class moving forward.
Paul said some questionable things in my opinion like when he said that he wishes everyone could stay single so they could focus on the ministry... Trying to keep it Christian chat friendly but then he said... If you just have to now chica wow wow, then go ahead and get married so you don't burn with lust
And then when he talks about the relationship between husband and wife, he doesn't go into any of the positive things that make a marriage great like communication, mutual respect etc.
He seems to have the opinion that physical gratification is the only real reason to get married
 

Ethan1942

Active member
Jul 23, 2022
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#22
This thread warrants a thorough response, but I will begin with this:

The words translated "help meet" are ezer kenegdo. These words are used of God Himself in other passages. As such, they do not indicate anything of subservience or incapability for leadership. Rather, they indicate full equality and correspondence to the man.
Your approach had serious problems when you try to equate the use of a word describing human to human relationships to that of God to human relationships. You say the Hebrew for "help" is used of God also, which indeed it does. But, then you go on to write:

"they indicate full equality and correspondence to the man"

So, there is "full equality" between God and his creation, man? That is ridiculous. Paul made clear how to view this and I'll take Paul's inspired commentary of any man.

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man: for neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man:" (1Cor 11:8-9, ASV)

"But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness. For Adam was first formed, then Eve; and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:" (1Tim 2:12-14, ASV)
When Paul said "nor to have dominion over a man", that certainly would include political, government office.

Another illustration of the nonsense of equating a word's use between humans, as the same when the word used of relationship between God and man.

"But because the LORD loved(H160/ahabah) you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt." (Deut 7:8, KJV)

But, in the describing the "love" Amnon had for Tamar, which was rape, the same word is used:

"Then Amnon hated her exceedingly; so that the hatred wherewith he hated her was greater than the love(H160/ahabah) wherewith he had loved her. And Amnon said unto her, Arise, be gone." (2Sam 13:15, KJV)

God was a helper to the man by giving him a helper, and that is certainly true.

Since it is so often remarked that Bible was written in a culture of patriarchy, haters of women, etc.; I must conclude then that those making that foolish remark deny that the Bible is truly God's word to man, but merely man's word about God. God did not allow man to pervert his words by the culture of the times:

"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." (2Pet 1:20-21, KJV)

or

"Above all, you do well if you recognize this: No prophecy of scripture ever comes about by the prophet’s own imagination, for no prophecy was ever borne of human impulse; rather, men carried along by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." (2Pet 1:20-21, NET2.1)

or

"But, above all, remember that no prophecy in Scripture will be found to have come from the prophet's own prompting; for never did any prophecy come by human will, but men sent by God spoke as they were impelled by the Holy Spirit." (2Pet 1:20-21, Weymouth)
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,317
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#23
Paul said some questionable things in my opinion like when he said that he wishes everyone could stay single so they could focus on the ministry... Trying to keep it Christian chat friendly but then he said... If you just have to now chica wow wow, then go ahead and get married so you don't burn with lust
And then when he talks about the relationship between husband and wife, he doesn't go into any of the positive things that make a marriage great like communication, mutual respect etc.
He seems to have the opinion that physical gratification is the only real reason to get married
I am very confident that if I were to pick and choose what you have said I could make you appear to be a jerk.

Paul presents the gospel as a love story, and much of what he speaks balances out an otherwise evil and adulterous age.

Why would you focus on this one point and not point out that Paul said that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the church? And his advice to wives to submit to their own husbands as to the Lord. When you get down to it these two points are the root cause of all marital problems.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
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#25
The Bible doesn't explicitly condemn women in positions of secular leadership (in general), nor does it explicitly forbid women from being in secular leadership.

I am a complementarian in the sense that male headship should be for the home and for the church. For the secular society at large, a male doesn't necessarily have to be the head and a woman is not in sin by being a secular leader (whether that be a manager/supervisor in a company or a political office, just to name a couple of examples).

There have been (and are) many instances where a woman in a position of secular power was/is a good thing and others in which it was/is a bad thing. To use an example from Scripture, Queen Jezebel (wife of King Ahab) was a horrible example of female leadership (she definitely "wore the pants" in that relationship). On the other hand, Queen Esther is a good example of female leadeership.

$0.02
 

Ethan1942

Active member
Jul 23, 2022
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#26
Paul said some questionable things in my opinion like when he said that he wishes everyone could stay single so they could focus on the ministry... Trying to keep it Christian chat friendly but then he said... If you just have to now chica wow wow, then go ahead and get married so you don't burn with lust
And then when he talks about the relationship between husband and wife, he doesn't go into any of the positive things that make a marriage great like communication, mutual respect etc.
He seems to have the opinion that physical gratification is the only real reason to get married
You wrote: "Paul said some questionable things in my opinion..." and I'm sure the regenerate children of God are eager to place your opinion above that of the Holy Spirit inspired Paul.

Paul's advice at the earlier part of the chapter -

"Yet I would that all men were even as I myself. Howbeit each man hath his own gift from God, one after this manner, and another after that. But I say to the unmarried and to widows, It is good for them if they abide even as I. But if they have not continency, let them marry: for it is better to marry than to burn." (1Cor 7:7-9, ASV)

There was a reason for Paul's advice to the men not to get married and it is given in 1 Cor. 7:26 -

"I think therefore that this is good by reason of the distress that is upon us, namely, that it is good for a man to be as he is. Art thou bound unto a wife? seek not to be loosed. Art thou loosed from a wife? seek not a wife. But shouldest thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin marry, she hath not sinned. Yet such shall have tribulation in the flesh: and I would spare you." (1Cor 7:26-28, ASV)

Paul was speaking of that time then existing for them not some general ban of marriage.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
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#27
Speaking of help meet, that phrase has evolved to a single word "helpmeet", because it is often used to mean "helpmate".

However, the word "meet" in KJV English can either mean "suitable/proper" or "due/just" (cf. Genesis 2 and Romans 1). There might be other meanings for "meet" in Scripture, but those two definitions are what came to mind.

In other words, God made the woman for the man so that she would be a help "suitable" or "proper" for him.
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,317
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#28
Speaking of help meet, that phrase has evolved to a single word "helpmeet", because it is often used to mean "helpmate".

However, the word "meet" in KJV English can either mean "suitable/proper" or "due/just" (cf. Genesis 2 and Romans 1). There might be other meanings for "meet" in Scripture, but those two definitions are what came to mind.

In other words, God made the woman for the man so that she would be a help "suitable" or "proper" for him.
Great point, so not only does he require that the Bishop be the husband of one wife so that you would have a couple that is an example to the body and that can minister to both men and women but also because that man needs a proper helper. I think every pastor will get feedback from their wife after the service, she will pray for him, advise him, and give him lots of useful and proper help.

That said the Woman priest who is not married is saying she doesn't need that balance.
 

Lanolin

Well-known member
Dec 15, 2018
23,460
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#29
with regard to Queen Elizabeth and her children, those who are wealthy can afford nannies and to be homeschooled or have governesses or tutors where teaching is one on one.

Most who dont have the means, do not.

Many rich parents choose to send their children to boarding schools nevertheless where their children are treated harshly and told to toughen up, and do not have much contact and affection.

It cannot be said that the role of Queen made Elizabeth a bad mother, when all four of her children had everything and never wanted for anything. Equal responsibility for their upbringing must ALSO lie with their dad as well.

Was he a good example? Did they learn faithfulness from his as well? Was he truly a christian?
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,317
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#30
with regard to Queen Elizabeth and her children, those who are wealthy can afford nannies and to be homeschooled or have governesses or tutors where teaching is one on one.

Most who dont have the means, do not.

Many rich parents choose to send their children to boarding schools nevertheless where their children are treated harshly and told to toughen up, and do not have much contact and affection.

It cannot be said that the role of Queen made Elizabeth a bad mother, when all four of her children had everything and never wanted for anything. Equal responsibility for their upbringing must ALSO lie with their dad as well.

Was he a good example? Did they learn faithfulness from his as well? Was he truly a christian?
Children are treated harshly at boarding school? I went to boarding school in England with one of the heirs to the British throne and we were not "treated harshly". Yes, I was caned, but the idea that this is a harsh, barbaric corporal punishment is greatly exagerated.

I loved every minute of my time at that school
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#31
We can guess at why God put Deborah in as judge, but we cannot know for he has not told us.
Deborah was there to administer justice, not to rule Israel. That is exactly why she encouraged Barak to do his job. It would appear that Barak was a coward. In the end it was Jael who got the job done.

And she dwelt under the palm tree of Deborah between Ramah and Bethel in mount Ephraim: and the children of Israel came up to her for judgment*. (Judges 4:5)

*Strong's Concordance
mishpat: judgment
Original Word: מִשְׁפָט
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: mishpat
Phonetic Spelling: (mish-pawt')
Definition: judgment
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,366
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#32
Your approach had serious problems when you try to equate the use of a word describing human to human relationships to that of God to human relationships. You say the Hebrew for "help" is used of God also, which indeed it does. But, then you go on to write:

"they indicate full equality and correspondence to the man"

So, there is "full equality" between God and his creation, man? That is ridiculous. Paul made clear how to view this and I'll take Paul's inspired commentary of any man.
Does "helpmeet" indicate subservience at all?

No, because if it did, it would imply that God is subservient to humankind, which of course He is not. Therefore, does it imply any subservience of women to men? Not at all.

Paul's words need to be taken in context, not in isolation. That includes cultural context, which is typically ignored because it contradicts the complementarian narrative.
 

Moses_Young

Well-known member
Sep 15, 2019
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#33
I wonder how Knox felt about Deborah.
I wondered this. While I do largely agree with the original poster, we are at war at the moment. Some things are expedient, permitted, even necessary, in war, which otherwise would not be so.

Deborah accompanied Barak into battle. There are plenty of other examples in scripture where women did things they weren't allowed (or supposed) to do because of necessity. The Queen of Sheba visited Solomon for his wisdom, but the bible doesn't downplay this because she should have let the king of Sheba do it. Best not be trying to fight a civil war over gender, when we're in a war already.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#34
I wondered this. While I do largely agree with the original poster, we are at war at the moment. Some things are expedient, permitted, even necessary, in war, which otherwise would not be so.

Deborah accompanied Barak into battle. There are plenty of other examples in scripture where women did things they weren't allowed (or supposed) to do because of necessity. The Queen of Sheba visited Solomon for his wisdom, but the bible doesn't downplay this because she should have let the king of Sheba do it. Best not be trying to fight a civil war over gender, when we're in a war already.
I think when dealing with an infinite and Holy mind while possessing a corrupted and finite one we would do well to approach the scriptures with much greater humility than was exercised at the outset. It's certainly reasonable to search the scriptures with the greatest of fervor, but a dose of meekness couldn't hurt.
 

tourist

Senior Member
Mar 13, 2014
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Tennessee
#35
with regard to Queen Elizabeth and her children, those who are wealthy can afford nannies and to be homeschooled or have governesses or tutors where teaching is one on one.

Most who dont have the means, do not.

Many rich parents choose to send their children to boarding schools nevertheless where their children are treated harshly and told to toughen up, and do not have much contact and affection.

It cannot be said that the role of Queen made Elizabeth a bad mother, when all four of her children had everything and never wanted for anything. Equal responsibility for their upbringing must ALSO lie with their dad as well.

Was he a good example? Did they learn faithfulness from his as well? Was he truly a christian?
The children certainly didn't learn faithfulness from their father was habitually unfaithful to his wife.
 
P

Polar

Guest
#36
I imagine Knox was rolling over in his tomb about the church, which now ordains woman to the pulpit, marries same-sex couples, and ordains openly professed homosexuals to the pulpit as well. The 41-page booklet by John Knox about women in the rule should be read by every Bible-believing Christian. It is amazing how those in the MAGA movement claim to be strict constructionist about the US Constitution, but feel at liberty to deny and disobey the commands of God in his word as they treat it as changeable by cultures. The arguments against Knox in the 16th century are similar to the religious feminist's arguments of today.
Nah. Knox is not rolling over at all. He is a lot wiser now than when he wrote his booklet and one day we all will be.

The arguments against Knox in the 16th century are similar to the religious feminist's arguments of today
The fact of the matter, is that men in positions of authority in church and in all secular office, are the ones most likely to fail in various ways.

Women are as redeemed as men and men have nothing to do with that or with their own redemption, should they be, either.

Why do men who have a hatred for women think they need to tell everyone about it?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
59,815
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#37
Clearly, Knox was a hypocrite as well as a misogynist, whatever he was besides.

To hypocrisy, he was fine with the support of the English queen where it
suited his interests, despite writing against any female in a leadership role.
Better than to hear, "Off with his head!!!" :giggle:
 
K

kaylagrl

Guest
#38
Someone mentioned hypocrisy, and the major hypocrisy I see is in the churches of today as they go on and on about abortion, which is not specifically addressed in the Scriptures, but ignore the direct commands of God about the role of women and the relationship with men.

Hold up!! Slam on the brakes!!! You're telling me that God in heaven is MORE offended by women in the pulpit than He is about abortion?! Please tell me you didn't just make that utterly ridiculous comparison!!
 

ZNP

Well-known member
Sep 14, 2020
36,317
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#39
If you read his tract you can see what he thought about Deborah, and how that does not include political rule or as a basis for selecting a leader. His writing brings out many things I'd never heard or seen pointed out before. The tract is archived online so I can't do a copy/paste but you can read his instructions on that starting page 26 lower right column and he covers more than Deborah.

https://archive.org/details/TheFirs...TheMonstrousRegimentOfWomen/page/n25/mode/2up

Someone mentioned hypocrisy, and the major hypocrisy I see is in the churches of today as they go on and on about abortion, which is not specifically addressed in the Scriptures, but ignore the direct commands of God about the role of women and the relationship with men. It is impossible to be an honest Bible-believer and support women in any leadership role in family, church or nation. We hear the churches so upset about family values being corrupted and the major corruption is in the loss of headship by the man in the home to start with at the first. John Knox answers the ideas of today's religious humanists that teach man's opposition to God's law.

I am convinced that with the state of the USA's churches today, elections will mean nothing. I do not see God continuing to bless a nation that so blatantly defies his laws, especially those as basic as family structure and man/woman relationships. John Knox also addresses the situation where the man is in pubic office, but his wife is directing his decisions.
The Act of Abortion is in the Bible

Abortion is specifically mentioned in the scriptures. The word abort means to "bring to a premature end because of a problem or a fault". So you might abort the launch of a spacecraft. Why would God use such an inhumane, cold and heartless word for the cold blooded murder of babies. So just because He doesn't use the term "abort" doesn't mean the fact is not there.

Leviticus 18:21 And thou shalt not let any of thy seed pass through the fire to Molech, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the Lord.

The word for a baby before you can tell if it is a boy or girl is "foetus" which means seed. If you abort a baby before 8 weeks it is "your seed" and you then will burn it along with all medical waste, hence you will cause it to pass through the fire. However, we have recently discovered (at least I have) that these abortions are not allegorical burnt offerings to Moloch but real burnt offerings. They are actually sacrificing babies and children to Moloch today. They do it in secret because it is illegal, but they do it and that is why they went beserk when the latest ruling concerning Roe V. Wade was made.

Leviticus 20:2 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever he be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth any of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones.

So there is a law if you live in the land. It isn't sufficient to say "Lord, I never had an abortion". If anyone in the land does you are required to put an end to it.

Leviticus 20:3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.

Abortion defiles the church and profanes the holy name of Jesus

Leviticus 20:4 And if the people of the land do any ways hide their eyes from the man, when he giveth of his seed unto Molech, and kill him not:

Read the Roe v. Wade ruling, they argued that according to the US constitution they were supposed to hide their eyes from anyone who has an abortion.

Leviticus 20:5 Then I will set my face against that man, and against his family, and will cut him off, and all that go a whoring after him, to commit whoredom with Molech, from among their people.

We have had 60 million abortions in the US and many polls have 50% of the country or more supporting this practice in some form or other. It is quite reasonable to think that God has set his face against 200 million people in America and will cut them off. Now if the fulfillment of the Messiah being cut off after 69 weeks was that he was arrested, tried in a kangaroo court, mocked, scourged, and crucified. What do you think God could mean here about cutting off those who abort their babies or who support abortion or who tell others to hide their eyes over it?

Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Now just in case you think there is some confusion over the word "seed" there is no confusion here. If the baby is old enough you can refer to them as a son or daughter. This may or may not be infanticide. It could just as easily refer to late term abortion.