Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor

[JohnDB]

What about Prophetesses?

They teach and inform....
Just like the deaconess Phoebe at the end of Romans....she wasn't just a letter carrier...she was there to more fully explain Paul's letter to the Roman's should they have any questions.

Then there's Lydia, and Anna, and....

Look....women do qualify to teach. But Female leadership is a sign of a believer returning to Childlike behavior (not a positive)

Which is why Paul didn't allow it....he didn't leave any wiggle room with his teachings....and didn't want them to fall under the associated curse.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

I think you have made up your mind already.

I really didn't know before about the role of women in Christianity and that's why I posted the article as a jumping off point for discussion. I learned a lot from what other people have posted.

But do you have an opinion about the article? Please share your point of view!

 

[ButterflyJones]

Paul write that there is no Jew, Gentile, Greek, male, female, we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Any agency that insists God would then not call women to preach , sorely fails to understand Paul's teaching by countering it with an exclusion clause relative to oneness in Christ when it comes to whom God calls to serve his will, and bring his words to people.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

What about Prophetesses?

They teach and inform....
Just like the deaconess Phoebe at the end of Romans....she wasn't just a letter carrier...she was there to more fully explain Paul's letter to the Roman's should they have any questions.

Then there's Lydia, and Anna, and....

Look....women do qualify to teach. But Female leadership is a sign of a believer returning to Childlike behavior (not a positive)

Which is why Paul didn't allow it....he didn't leave any wiggle room with his teachings....and didn't want them to fall under the associated curse.

Yeah, I don't mind females not taking leadership roles in a church. Not being in a position of supreme leadership in a church doesn't mean women are "less". Everybody in their roles whatever they may be are still valuable. But I think Satan is trying to fool women into thinking that they are "less," so some women are trying to push to become pastors.

I think the perfect example of role cooperation is of the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit not trying to usurp God the Father's role. And God the Father is wonderful not ever "lording" His supreme authority over His Son and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity all works together so well because of this. So if we don't fight our roles in the Body and treat everyone with respect regarding their roles, all should work well together.

 

[JohnDB]

Yeah, I don't mind females not taking leadership roles in a church. Not being in a position of supreme leadership in a church doesn't mean women are "less". Everybody in their roles whatever they may be are still valuable. But I think Satan is trying to fool women into thinking that they are "less," so some women are trying to push to become pastors.

I think the perfect example of role cooperation is of the Lord Jesus and the Holy Spirit not trying to usurp God the Father's role. And God the Father is wonderful not ever "lording" His supreme authority over His Son and the Holy Spirit. The Trinity all works together so well because of this. So if we don't fight our roles in the Body and treat everyone with respect regarding their roles, all should work well together.

Men and women have a symbiotic relationship. We are at our best when we work together. We need each other. Just like we need God the Father and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

 

[ResidentAlien]

........."over a man". Titus 2:4 says that mature women should be teaching the younger women. Taking one verse out of context is not helpful. So yes, women can be teachers.

I'm not taking anything out of context. The context is Paul's instructions to Timothy on protocol in the assembly. He says women aren't to be teachers nor have authority over men. I explained the Greek already a couple of times but apparently you either didn't read it or dismissed it.

You have a point about Titus; but as far as women having an active role in the assembly as teachers, no.

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." 1 Timothy 2:13

 

[JohnDB]

I'm not taking anything out of context. The context is Paul's instructions to Timothy on protocol in the assembly. He says women aren't to be teachers nor have authority over men. I explained the Greek already a couple of times but apparently you either didn't read it or dismissed it.

You have a point about Titus; but as far as women having an active role in the assembly as teachers, no.

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." 1 Timothy 2:13

It's about going beyond what is written....and CONTEXT.

Paul was writing to his friend Timothy and speaking more colloquially than he would to a general audience. (A nuance that many choose to deliberately ignore)
Even parsing it in Greek won't help with context.

A woman teacher is not a sin but a sign. One that sin is already present and has been present for a long time. That the spiritual state of the people is such that they aren't mature enough to deal with men but instead need a nurse/mother.

And these 2,000 years after Jesus's ministry tour....we are in sad shape as a whole.

YOU may personally not benefit from a woman pastor...but that doesn't mean that others aren't at your maturity level. And even in backwater towns in rural areas there are usually more than one church to choose from.

So you don't like women preachers....find one that doesn't have one.

7th Day Adventist all follow a woman's teachings. (Laurie or Ellen White) So I have no use for them. And their ridiculous legalisms have no logic whatsoever. But they all were deceived originally by Miller and waiting for the end of the world. (Millerites) But at least they aren't so impoverished anymore and needing charity from the heathen. And many of the SDA are truly seeking after righteousness.

Today's world wasn't envisioned by Paul with our automobiles and travel. What distance we travel today as a nothing was once a serious journey of a whole day's travel. Meaning that you weren't going home to your own bed at night. 20 miles round trip to church and back home today is of no consequence...and how many churches are passed on the way to "yours"?
It's a very different world today in some ways. And we don't need to fight those who aren't exactly against God.

 

[ResidentAlien]

It's about going beyond what is written....and CONTEXT.

Paul was writing to his friend Timothy and speaking more colloquially than he would to a general audience. (A nuance that many choose to deliberately ignore)
Even parsing it in Greek won't help with context.

A woman teacher is not a sin but a sign. One that sin is already present and has been present for a long time. That the spiritual state of the people is such that they aren't mature enough to deal with men but instead need a nurse/mother.

And these 2,000 years after Jesus's ministry tour....we are in sad shape as a whole.

YOU may personally not benefit from a woman pastor...but that doesn't mean that others aren't at your maturity level. And even in backwater towns in rural areas there are usually more than one church to choose from.

So you don't like women preachers....find one that doesn't have one.

7th Day Adventist all follow a woman's teachings. (Laurie or Ellen White) So I have no use for them. And their ridiculous legalisms have no logic whatsoever. But they all were deceived originally by Miller and waiting for the end of the world. (Millerites) But at least they aren't so impoverished anymore and needing charity from the heathen. And many of the SDA are truly seeking after righteousness.

Today's world wasn't envisioned by Paul with our automobiles and travel. What distance we travel today as a nothing was once a serious journey of a whole day's travel. Meaning that you weren't going home to your own bed at night. 20 miles round trip to church and back home today is of no consequence...and how many churches are passed on the way to "yours"?
It's a very different world today in some ways. And we don't need to fight those who aren't exactly against God.

Honestly, most of what you've said is over my head; I'm not an intellectual. People on here seem to think it makes them look smart when they speak in riddles. Personally, I find it boring in the extreme.

What I do know is it's not about what I like or don't like. It's about what God prescribes in His word.

 

[JohnDB]

Honestly, most of what you've said is over my head; I'm not an intellectual. People on here seem to think it makes them look smart when they speak in riddles. Personally, I find it boring in the extreme.

What I do know is it's not about what I like or don't like. It's about what God prescribes in His word.

Paul spoke to Timothy like a buddy....not a student or like he would to a general audience. Meaning that some of what he says requires previous, personal knowledge of Paul's personality.

And

There was only ONE church in a community....no where near the choices available that we have today.

 

[Dino246]

I'm not taking anything out of context. The context is Paul's instructions to Timothy on protocol in the assembly. He says women aren't to be teachers nor have authority over men. I explained the Greek already a couple of times but apparently you either didn't read it or dismissed it.

You have a point about Titus; but as far as women having an active role in the assembly as teachers, no.

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." 1 Timothy 2:13

Paul doesn’t say that women aren’t to be teachers nor have authority over men; he says he does not allow a woman to teach nor to authentein a man. That word likely doesn’t mean ‘have authority over’.

 

[JohnDB]

Paul doesn’t say that women aren’t to be teachers nor have authority over men; he says he does not allow a woman to teach nor to authentein a man. That word likely doesn’t mean ‘have authority over’.

It still didn't stop Paul from sending Phoebe to the church in Rome now did it?

 

[Mem]

Paul doesn’t say that women aren’t to be teachers nor have authority over men; he says he does not allow a woman to teach nor to authentein a man. That word likely doesn’t mean ‘have authority over’.

I wonder if this issue were Paul's thorn in his side? The one law he had trouble 'working out of his flesh.'?

 

[Dude653]

Again, Paul was stating his own personal opinion. Paul is not god. Also Paul never met Jesus
As for the authority thing, for any man who have a female supervisor at your job, try that at work. Have your resume ready to find another job

 

[Cameron143]

Again, Paul was stating his own personal opinion. Paul is not god. Also Paul never met Jesus
As for the authority thing, for any man who have a female supervisor at your job, try that at work. Have your resume ready to find another job

So much wrong in such a short span.

If we were reading this from Paul's personal effects, you would be correct that it is Paul's opinion. By virtue of the fact it is found in scripture, it is no longer merely his opinion.

Paul did meet Jesus. And met with Him on numerous occasions. The Bible records this.

The setting for his restrictions of women is within the church, not every arena of life.

 

[MrE]

Paul spoke to Timothy like a buddy....not a student or like he would to a general audience. Meaning that some of what he says requires previous, personal knowledge of Paul's personality.

And

There was only ONE church in a community....no where near the choices available that we have today.

People so easily forget that this was Paul’s letter TO TIMOTHY.

He was offering advice, not setting new commands to be ‘written in stone’ like he was Moses. Too many Christians follow Paul’s instructions instead the teachings of Jesus. They become ‘Pauline’s’ by choice and in error.

 

[Subhumanoidal]

Paul write that there is no Jew, Gentile, Greek, male, female, we are all one in Christ Jesus.

Any agency that insists God would then not call women to preach , sorely fails to understand Paul's teaching by countering it with an exclusion clause relative to oneness in Christ when it comes to whom God calls to serve his will, and bring his words to people.

No husband, no wife?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Saddleback Church Ousted from Southern Baptist Convention Over Female Pastor

https://abcnews.go.com/US/saddlebac...st-convention-female-pastor/story?id=97384219​

So, Rick Warren's church has been kicked out of the Southern Baptist Convention for ordaining a female pastor.

There have been a few female figures in the Bible that had some minor undertakings but never anything major. Paul the Apostle also wrote:


1 Timothy 2:11-15

New International Version

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.


So what do you all think?

You need to look into the prevailing social context of your "Proof text".

 

[ButterflyJones]

I'm not taking anything out of context. The context is Paul's instructions to Timothy on protocol in the assembly. He says women aren't to be teachers nor have authority over men. I explained the Greek already a couple of times but apparently you either didn't read it or dismissed it.

You have a point about Titus; but as far as women having an active role in the assembly as teachers, no.

"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression." 1 Timothy 2:13

You ignore the fact that Paul praised the women teachers and leaders in the churches he founded.

 

[Magenta]

Okay, I looked up whether Dr. Charles Stanley condones homosexuality or not and he DOESN'T. Whew! I love him so much!

Charles Stanley declines award after Jews question his views on gays
https://www.deseret.com/2015/4/22/2...s-award-after-jews-question-his-views-on-gays

Atlanta pastor rejects anti-gay rhetoric of his dad (Andy Stanley
https://www.projectq.us/atlanta-pastor-rejects-anti-gay-rhetoric-of-his-dad/

Hello 2ndTim Thank you for the information on Charles' son. I have listened to Charles' radio program off and on for many years (whenever it happens to be on while I am tuned in to my Christian talk station, kari55 which is also available online), and I have always enjoyed him. In looking further into the allegations against Andy, I found this comment on a youtube video titled, Is Andy Stanley Gay-Affirming?

My family and I left Andy's church after 20 years. The two "final straws" for us were this:
1) My middle school-aged children were sitting with us in church one morning when
Andy read from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and had it up on his screen on stage. He read every
word EXCEPT for "nor men who practice homosexuality;" he read every other sin that was
listed. This upset me more than anything because my children were sitting with me.
They had their Bibles with them and were reading along with Andy -- and what he
ultimately taught them was that they could leave out parts of Scripture that they didn't
like or didn't agree with. My heart broke that morning for all of the people who were
listening to Andy's message who were not given the full Scripture and thus were led
to believe that they could skip/omit what they didn't like. My husband and I had to go
home and have many follow-up conversations with our children about the Authority
and Sufficiency of Scripture -- and how we are not the Author. God is the Author of Scripture --
and only He gets to determine what it says.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Hello 2ndTim Thank you for the information on Charles' son. I have listened to Charles' radio program off and on for many years (whenever it happens to be on while I am tuned in to my Christian talk station, kari55 which is also available online), and I have always enjoyed him. In looking further into the allegations against Andy, I found this comment on a youtube video titled, Is Andy Stanley Gay-Affirming?

My family and I left Andy's church after 20 years. The two "final straws" for us were this:
1) My middle school-aged children were sitting with us in church one morning when
Andy read from 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and had it up on his screen on stage. He read every
word EXCEPT for "nor men who practice homosexuality;" he read every other sin that was
listed. This upset me more than anything because my children were sitting with me.
They had their Bibles with them and were reading along with Andy -- and what he
ultimately taught them was that they could leave out parts of Scripture that they didn't
like or didn't agree with. My heart broke that morning for all of the people who were
listening to Andy's message who were not given the full Scripture and thus were led
to believe that they could skip/omit what they didn't like. My husband and I had to go
home and have many follow-up conversations with our children about the Authority
and Sufficiency of Scripture -- and how we are not the Author. God is the Author of Scripture --
and only He gets to determine what it says.

Wow, Andy Stanley actually left that verse out??? That is just crazy!

It's nice that we all still have Dr. Charles Stanley though. I really love this pastor! He's so gentle and loving and encouraging and I can see how the Lord is through him.

I am also starting to listen to and watch Pastor David Jeremiah and he's pretty good too!