Israel Declares War

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Cameron143

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Hamas are holed up in tunnels like the Viet Cong did in Vietnam
So rather than bombing Gaza and killing innocent civilians, maybe a siege would be more effective
Eventually they would have two options, surrender or starve
The bombing is to degrade their military capabilities.
 
Sep 15, 2019
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It's not solely a numbers game. I can agree to that. But in this case, it is twofold: number of deaths and ongoing death. Any solution that allows innocent people to continue to die when it is in one's power to stop it is immoral. It can be stopped.
You had no problem saying that the Israeli government was immoral in letting the attack happen. Why? Because they could have spared lives. Yet somehow, now that their actions, which will spare countless more lives, their actions are immoral. It seems a little hypocritical to me.
Morality has little, if anything, to do with number of lives killed or saved. Morality is about right and wrong - truth and lies - obedience to God or trusting in the "wisdom" of man. Saving lives is good, of course, but not at the expense of morality. That's why there are laws against torture, 5th amendment, innocent until proven guilty, etc.
 

Cameron143

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Combat on the ground requires a different skill set.
Plus Hamas is prepared and trained.

I will go with Scott Ritter's analysis and other honest military analyzers who are not caught up in the myth of the invicible IDF but time will tell

The IDF has become experts at arresting children, beating up women, and murdering unarmed men. Digging a competent enemy out of the rubble of a destroyed city, especially when they have prepared and organized for such a battle, is deadly work. The Israeli troops who have been assembled outside of Gaza are not ready for this fight. They are not trained or equipped for this fight. They are not psychologically prepared for this fight."
Hamas isn't nearly as well trained as the IDF. And Israeli special forces are as elite as their American counterparts.
The person you are quoting shows his bias in the first paragraph. He isn't giving a professional opinion. He is giving an emotional diatribe similar to many here.
 

Cameron143

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Morality has little, if anything, to do with number of lives killed or saved. Morality is about right and wrong - truth and lies - obedience to God or trusting in the "wisdom" of man. Saving lives is good, of course, but not at the expense of morality. That's why there are laws against torture, 5th amendment, innocent until proven guilty, etc.
That's why I asked the question. Is it moral to save more or less life? But I can rephrase it: is it right to save more or less life?
 

ThereRoseaLamb

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Netanyahu is a war criminal and a rat, and he knows his own people want to try him as a war criminal. He's just doing what all rats do as the ship sinks - trying to save his own sorry skin. I'm hoping he is held to justice, and the guilty with him.
Well, that's your opinion, let's see what really comes of it all.
 
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Genesis 12:3
I will bless those who bless you, and him who dishonors you I will curse, and in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”
God is talking to Abraham here. We who believe in the resurrected Christ for salvation are Abraham's descendants. The ones you are defending are those murdering some of Abraham's descendants.

Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

Psalm 122:6
Pray for the peace of Jerusalem! “May they be secure who love you!
Old Testament. I'd argue the Jerusalem there is the spiritual Jerusalem, the same as the Israel of God Paul writes of in the New Testament. However, even if not, I doubt the future godless occupiers of physical Jerusalem murdering civilians in Gaza is what the Psalmist had in mind when he wrote this.

Zechariah 2:8
for he who touches you touches the apple of his eye
Look at the verse before.
Zechariah 2:7 Deliver thyself, O Zion, that dwellest with the daughter of Babylon.
Even if this passage is applicable to the present day, how do we know that the Babylonian Talmudists (who call themselves Jews) are not the daughter of Babylon the prophet is warning against?

Isaiah 41:11-12
Behold, all who are incensed against you shall be put to shame and confounded; those who strive against you shall be as nothing and shall perish. You shall seek those who contend with you, but you shall not find them; those who war against you shall be as nothing at all.
Look again at who God is talking to - the seed of Abraham - all believers.
Isaiah 41:8 - 10
But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.
Thou whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called thee from the chief men thereof, and said unto thee, Thou art my servant; I have chosen thee, and not cast thee away.
Fear thou not; for I am with thee: be not dismayed; for I am thy God: I will strengthen thee; yea, I will help thee; yea, I will uphold thee with the right hand of my righteousness.

I simply take Israel as seriously God does.
I think most Christians do. It's just I and many other Christians take God's word on who Israel is, and who the true Jews are, over unbelieving, blaspheming liars who might claim to be so (but who are not). I thought Revelation might have given you a clue.
 

HeIsHere

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Hamas isn't nearly as well trained as the IDF. And Israeli special forces are as elite as their American counterparts.
The person you are quoting shows his bias in the first paragraph. He isn't giving a professional opinion. He is giving an emotional diatribe similar to many here.
There is that myth again. Israel has been struggling to overcome the stain of its 2006 defeat at the hands of Hezbollah.

I guess that explains October 7th then, they were obviously so well trained that is why it happened.
 

Cameron143

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There is that myth again. Israel has been struggling to overcome the stain of its 2006 defeat at the hands of Hezbollah.

I guess that explains October 7th then, they were obviously so well trained that is why it happened.
I thought your side of the argument believed Israeli intelligence did know it was coming and could have prevented it. I noticed you didn't address the bias that informed your source.
 

HeIsHere

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There are many disadvantages to being in a tunnel and the IDF is leveraging all of them. They are attacking from four sides in Northern Gaza, makes it very hard to play hide and seek. They are watching the city so when someone does emerge from a tunnel or enter a tunnel their cameras see it. They are flooding tunnels making it very difficult to move about, impossible to be silent, and untenable to hide for long. They have already seized maps of the tunnel network, and when helpful they blow up the tunnels and entrances. They have night vision goggles, they can shut off the electricity and they have elite units going through. Hamas is losing ground every hour and every day. They keep the pressure on 24 hours a day so they can't sleep, you cut off all supplies to the Northern half of Gaza so they are stressed out after a month. They are losing and they know it and none of their losses are being broadcast worldwide so they can't use their deaths for publicity.

Israel may win on the ground but they will have lost in many other ways.

People are aware of their crimes, they will be forced into a two state solution of they will continue to escalate in which case there will be a regional war, one I doubt they will win.
 

Cameron143

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Everyone choosing to live in peace is the best way.
That's awesome. Maybe someone should share that with Hamas. I'm sure if they knew they would lay aside their arms and gather in a circle, forego their goal of killing every Jew and sing Kumbaya.
 

HeIsHere

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I thought your side of the argument believed Israeli intelligence did know it was coming and could have prevented it. I noticed you didn't address the bias that informed your source.
First of all "they" is a big group, bear that in mind.
So who knew what is hard to tell.

But for whatever reason whether intentionally or incompetence some IDF/government let their guard down.
 

Cameron143

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First of all "they" is a big group, bear that in mind.
So who knew what is hard to tell.

But for whatever reason whether intentionally or incompetence some IDF/government let their guard down.
I don't disagree. I think it could have been largely prevented, just like Pearl Harbor.