You seem to have missed the point. The Jews went to the synagogues to assemble and worship, and Christ joined them because He was fully under the Law of Moses (which required the observance of the Sabbath). The Christian "Sabbath" is the Lord's Day, which was set aside for Christian worship in assemblies. It is Christ Himself who made the first day of the week into "the Lord's Day".
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C
I am one of those believers that equates no church attendance to backsliding in most cases. I just can imagine a fully surrendered Christian staying home on Sunday Morning. This part of Christian
I agree. I don't care for home fellowships. I am glad you are for meeting with saints in a public place with an elder involved. I was worried you were going to stay isolated until Jesus comes. We have progress.
I agree. I don't care for home fellowships. I am glad you are for meeting with saints in a public place with an elder involved. I was worried you were going to stay isolated until Jesus comes. We have progress.
I'm very much into home fellowships, that is where the true nurturing can happen. But if we are going to ask someone to offer their home as a meeting place, we need to protect their household from any kind of threat. And to my mind, unless we know a person adequately enough that they won't be a threat, it would be best to get to know them by meeting up with them regularly in a public space first, before inviting them into a home fellowship.
I don't attend any fellowship at the moment, and haven't for decades, but I'm always on the lookout for one where I know its members will be properly observed and served. I, like others here that are in a similar situation to mine, would dearly love to find such a fellowship, but we are not even sure if they exist!
Nemiah6, you state, " It is Christ Himself who made the first day of the week into "the Lord's Day". As you so often ask, please provide your scriptural reference as to Jesus establishing the 'Lords Day'. Thanks.
I was always under the impression that it was the early Apolostolic Church, that Jesus founded that made the first day of the week, the Lord's Day, in honor of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.
I was always under the impression that it was the early Apolostolic Church, that Jesus founded that made the first day of the week, the Lord's Day, in honor of Jesus' resurrection from the dead.
I believe Sunday to be the Lords day. But I see no where where the NT changes the Sabbath to Sunday. Just like i do not find where the NT tell us we can steal or murder . I have heard it was the RCC that change the day of worship to Sunday to include pagans. My question is not a challenge just one of curiosity
When Jesus said upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, I believe that He has true fellowships all over the place that are sufficient for any hungry believer to belong to and be nurtured and serve others.
To find them requires faith, prayer and obedience to try. It cannot be true that "they don't exist" because there will always be a remnant that has not bowed the knee to "modern idolatry of whatever kind"
To find them requires faith, prayer and obedience to try. It cannot be true that "they don't exist" because there will always be a remnant that has not bowed the knee to "modern idolatry of whatever kind"
Sure, Here is the relevant Scripture passage:
JOHN 20: CHRIST ESTABLISHED THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK AS LORD'S DAY
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre...
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you... 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:...
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came... 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
So Christians should ask themselves why John has recorded this as he has, and what is its significance.
1. John repeats "the first day of the week" twice to emphasize that Resurrection Day was indeed the first day of the week (the morrow after the Sabbath).
2. Christ repeated "Peace be unto you twice" to assure the disciples that He had accomplished the work of reconciling God the Father to the world, and now there was peace with God and the peace of God for those who believed on Christ.
3. Christ gave the gift of the Holy Spirit to His apostles on the first day of the week, and the day of Pentecost was also on the first day of the week, when the gift of the Holy Ghost was given to about 3,000 Jews. This is significant.
4. For whatever reason, Thomas, who should have been present was absent, but refused to believe that Christ was alive. Now Jesus could easily have appeared to Thomas and all the apostles the very next day, but He deliberated chose to wait for eight days (including the day of resurrection). Which meant that He would see Himself declared as both Lord and God by Thomas on the first day of the week. Thus Thomas (and presumably all the apostles) worshipped Christ on the first day of the week.
5. It is God who inspired the apostle John to call this day "the Lord's Day", but it would have been regarded as the Lord's Day for many years prior to that. And Justin Martyr, writing in the 2nd century speaks of the Lord's Day quite extensively.
JOHN 20: CHRIST ESTABLISHED THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK AS LORD'S DAY
1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre...
19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you... 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:...
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came... 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
So Christians should ask themselves why John has recorded this as he has, and what is its significance.
1. John repeats "the first day of the week" twice to emphasize that Resurrection Day was indeed the first day of the week (the morrow after the Sabbath).
2. Christ repeated "Peace be unto you twice" to assure the disciples that He had accomplished the work of reconciling God the Father to the world, and now there was peace with God and the peace of God for those who believed on Christ.
3. Christ gave the gift of the Holy Spirit to His apostles on the first day of the week, and the day of Pentecost was also on the first day of the week, when the gift of the Holy Ghost was given to about 3,000 Jews. This is significant.
4. For whatever reason, Thomas, who should have been present was absent, but refused to believe that Christ was alive. Now Jesus could easily have appeared to Thomas and all the apostles the very next day, but He deliberated chose to wait for eight days (including the day of resurrection). Which meant that He would see Himself declared as both Lord and God by Thomas on the first day of the week. Thus Thomas (and presumably all the apostles) worshipped Christ on the first day of the week.
5. It is God who inspired the apostle John to call this day "the Lord's Day", but it would have been regarded as the Lord's Day for many years prior to that. And Justin Martyr, writing in the 2nd century speaks of the Lord's Day quite extensively.
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Everything you cite is correct, except for the heading which you made up, "JOHN 20: CHRIST ESTABLISHED THE FIRST DAY OF THE WEEK AS LORD'S DAY". I agree that Christ arose on Sunday, the first day of the week. but where is the "Lord's Day' even mentioned in the verses you have cited?
In fact, the only place in the Bible where I the Lord's Day is referenced is in Revelations, after Jesus arose from the dead, "On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, " but that verse never mentions changing the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday.
So in what scriptures does Jesus mandate a change of worship from the Sabbath to 'The Lord's Day'? Thanks.
In fact, the only place in the Bible where I the Lord's Day is referenced is in Revelations, after Jesus arose from the dead, "On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet, " but that verse never mentions changing the day of worship from the Sabbath to Sunday.
So in what scriptures does Jesus mandate a change of worship from the Sabbath to 'The Lord's Day'? Thanks.
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Nemiah, don't get me wrong. I absolutely agree with you that Sunday is the 'Lord's Day'. We should worship the Lord every day of the week, but particularly on Sunday. Where we disagree is who began 'Sunday Worship' that replaced 'Sabbath/Saturday Worship'. You say that Jesus made this change. I say that Jesus didn't. Instead, the Apostles and early Christian disciples of the Church made the change, in honor of the Lord's resurrection.
It is clearly indicated in the earliest Christian history writings of the period that Christians would worship on Sundays, the Lord's Day.
It is clearly indicated in the earliest Christian history writings of the period that Christians would worship on Sundays, the Lord's Day.
Rev 1:10 might mean that John saw the Day of the Lord in the Spirit. In other words, he was somehow by the Spirit made to see what would transpire on the Lord's Day or Day of the Lord in the future end time Day of the Lord mentioned so often in prophecy.
It is possible that John never intended Sunday. It is possible that others misunderstood what John meant and started calling Sunday "the Lords Day." I have read that it was 100 years after Revelation before any Christian writers referred to Sunday as the Lord's Day.
I am not sure yet. When reading it in Greek is sounds a lot more like the biblically literate readers of the that time would have thought about the prophesies rather than a nickname given to when Christians met on the first day of the week.
Joseph A Seiss, Apocalypse: Lectures on Revelation
It is possible that John never intended Sunday. It is possible that others misunderstood what John meant and started calling Sunday "the Lords Day." I have read that it was 100 years after Revelation before any Christian writers referred to Sunday as the Lord's Day.
I am not sure yet. When reading it in Greek is sounds a lot more like the biblically literate readers of the that time would have thought about the prophesies rather than a nickname given to when Christians met on the first day of the week.
Joseph A Seiss, Apocalypse: Lectures on Revelation
The danger for the non-denominational (like me) is that they form a denomination inadvertently. I also believe that not so many believers are wedded to denominations as they used to be. Since teaching seems to be a thing of the past in many churches, it's understandable. Surveys suggest that the pastor is the draw card for most people. This is wrong also. But the church in the Western world is not a lot like the pattern we see in the NT.
C
I'm not saying they don't exist. I'm saying I've been looking for one for an awful long time, have been on the road throughout Australia a number of times searching, and scoured the internet. I have come across individuals that are on the same path, and every now and again a couple, but never a group. Hence my comment, I'm not even sure such a group exists. A remnant can be a very small number, dispersed widely. This is not what I personally want, it's what personally is, for me at least.
C
I agree. I've been on guard against that.
Re the teaching question, in the pentecostal sphere I circulated in for a while, their pastors often seemed to be of the evangelist/exhorted type. One of their assemblies I associated with did have an assistant (???) pastor that obviously had the bent of teaching, people often remarked that they learnt from Him. He had a falling out with the senior pastor over what needed to be taught, so left that assembly and went elsewhere.
But I also have to ask about teaching in the church. Since we have the Holy Spirit indwelling each and everyone of us Christians, and His knowledge of scripture and teaching ability is equal to the Father and the Son, and so we have the best private tutoring available with us all, always, what is a pastor/elder supposed to teach, and to whom?
Re the teaching question, in the pentecostal sphere I circulated in for a while, their pastors often seemed to be of the evangelist/exhorted type. One of their assemblies I associated with did have an assistant (???) pastor that obviously had the bent of teaching, people often remarked that they learnt from Him. He had a falling out with the senior pastor over what needed to be taught, so left that assembly and went elsewhere.
But I also have to ask about teaching in the church. Since we have the Holy Spirit indwelling each and everyone of us Christians, and His knowledge of scripture and teaching ability is equal to the Father and the Son, and so we have the best private tutoring available with us all, always, what is a pastor/elder supposed to teach, and to whom?
C
I think I did. I mentioned Timothy appointed elders in Ephesus.
Show me one example of a worship team. Show me one example of a Youth Pastor. Show me one example of a Bus ministry to pick up kids in a neighborhood near the church building. Show me one example of a nursing home ministry. Show me one example of a an out reach pastor who organizes and gets people from the church involved in outreaches.
The Church has the freedom to grow dynamically and organically to meet the needs in the local assembly as they meet together and serve Christ and live life together, and as they attempt to reach the lost with the Gospel. If as they go about doing that they develop a lead pastor model along with elders, deacons, outreach leaders, youth pastors, children pastors, worship team leaders, etc they have that freedom to do so. It is neither wrong or right in a New Testament Legalistic code book on exact methods of local assembly organization and leadership models.
Pray, seek God as a body, and develop the model that works for you. It's that simple. Let the Holy Spirit be in charge and the scriptures as your guide. There is a reason it is not all spelled out like the Law of Moses for temple cultic practices as that is not the way the Church was to operate. Looking for a scripture that says this is exactly how it must be organized won't work. Praying and hearing from the Holy Spirit as needs arise is the model.
And most good churches that have a lead pastor also have a board that votes on major decisions and the pastor does not go against those decisions. Many lead pastors have testimonies about how much they appreciate the board model because they would have done things they would have later regretted without those checks and balances in place.
A lead pastor should not be a dictator running the show. You can have a lead pastor that is more like a "pillar" and a "spokes person" for the governing body.
Every church is unique and we can't just say all lead pastor models are unbiblical. The bible does not support that assumption.
Show me one example of a worship team. Show me one example of a Youth Pastor. Show me one example of a Bus ministry to pick up kids in a neighborhood near the church building. Show me one example of a nursing home ministry. Show me one example of a an out reach pastor who organizes and gets people from the church involved in outreaches.
The Church has the freedom to grow dynamically and organically to meet the needs in the local assembly as they meet together and serve Christ and live life together, and as they attempt to reach the lost with the Gospel. If as they go about doing that they develop a lead pastor model along with elders, deacons, outreach leaders, youth pastors, children pastors, worship team leaders, etc they have that freedom to do so. It is neither wrong or right in a New Testament Legalistic code book on exact methods of local assembly organization and leadership models.
Pray, seek God as a body, and develop the model that works for you. It's that simple.
Let the Holy Spirit be in charge and the scriptures as your guide. There is a reason it is not all spelled out like the Law of Moses for temple cultic practices as that is not the way the Church was to operate. Looking for a scripture that says this is exactly how it must be organized won't work. Praying and hearing from the Holy Spirit as needs arise is the model.And most good churches that have a lead pastor also have a board that votes on major decisions and the pastor does not go against those decisions. Many lead pastors have testimonies about how much they appreciate the board model because they would have done things they would have later regretted without those checks and balances in place.
A lead pastor should not be a dictator running the show. You can have a lead pastor that is more like a "pillar" and a "spokes person" for the governing body.
Every church is unique and we can't just say all lead pastor models are unbiblical. The bible does not support that assumption.
It is possible that a fellowship may have and elderly elder that warrants extra respect and deference to their knowledge because of the their life experiences, but they would have no declared authority over any other elder. A pastor's role is one of service, not headship.
I agree, no perfect churches; but there are churches who have the ability to listen and those who don't. The institutional churches have stopped listening to the Lord. It's all about getting people to come to them and give them their cash, when the true church has been commanded to go spread the gospel.
I agree we need to assemble. Solitude should never be a normal practice. But unfortunately the option to disengage from the institutional churches is better at this time than to stay and participate in their apathy.
I can't help believe that people like yourself who continue to encourage participation with dead institutional churches have something invested and something to gain personally from it. You're definitely not listen to what the Spirit is saying to us.
I agree we need to assemble. Solitude should never be a normal practice. But unfortunately the option to disengage from the institutional churches is better at this time than to stay and participate in their apathy.
I can't help believe that people like yourself who continue to encourage participation with dead institutional churches have something invested and something to gain personally from it. You're definitely not listen to what the Spirit is saying to us.
Good point.
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I was involved in.. several churches.
- During my spiritual journey..since 1970's.
- Denominational & Non-Denominational.
- From Mega..to House church.
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Interesting to note:
- Some non-denominational churches..become another 'denomination/establishment.'
- After they get.. 'recognition, status, assets, etc..'
- Even though, they say.."we are not!"
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I was involved in.. several churches.
- During my spiritual journey..since 1970's.
- Denominational & Non-Denominational.
- From Mega..to House church.
----
Interesting to note:
- Some non-denominational churches..become another 'denomination/establishment.'
- After they get.. 'recognition, status, assets, etc..'
- Even though, they say.."we are not!"
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