You must be born "anothen" - was Jesus speaking in Greek?
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For some reason I can't get it to work.
ܡܢ, ܡܰܢ Particle. Etymology: From the Greek word μέν. Gloss: indeed. Root: ܡܢ. Inflected form marked as Lexeme: ܡܰܢ. Index of Inflected Forms: ܡܢ.
ܕܪܫ, ܕ݁ܪܱܫ Verb. Gloss: train ( pael ); debate; argue; question; dispute. Root: ܕܪܫ. Inflected form marked as Lexeme: ܕ݁ܪܱܫ. Index of Inflected Forms: ܕܪܫ.
While I am no linguist, but based upon years of research and studying the scriptures I would say that Jesus was speaking in Hebrew then. 
But of course faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Son of God.
So if Jesus explained it to you that the first meaning was the right one, that he must be born of the Spirit from above, then you must have obviously seen the kingdom of God. So can you tell us what you saw?
But of course faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Son of God.
So if Jesus explained it to you that the first meaning was the right one, that he must be born of the Spirit from above, then you must have obviously seen the kingdom of God. So can you tell us what you saw?
The conversation (if it is historical) could have occurred in the Aramaic. If so, it was about the second birth (birth again, new birth). But the evangelist reproduced it in Greek and intentionally used a word with a double meaning so that the second birth could be understood as the birth from above (as many and understood this phrase). In addition to what Erman says, in this case we can also talk and about the evangelist's cunning, who purposely made just such an expression (I repeat, if he actually relied on some kind of Aramaic source with this dialogue and did not invent it himself).
Born of the Spirit
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which according to his abundant mercy [hath begotten us] again
unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
-The word used here for "Being born again" is: G313; to beget...bear again.
It means begettal, not birth. If you don't understand the difference, ask your wife.
God used the physical birth cycle, to show us the birth into spirit beings[future].
That which is born of the flesh is flesh: in a physical birth, we are physical beings.
But that which is born of the Spirit is spirit: in a spiritual birth, we will be spirit beings!
Until born again, we cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Jesus to Nicodemus, John 3:3).
Until born again, we cannot enter into the Kingdom of God
(Jesus to Nicodemus, John 3:5).
Until no longer flesh, but changed into spirit being, we cannot enter into
the Kingdom of God (Jesus to Nicodemus, John 3:6-8).
While still flesh and blood (as Nicodemus was and we are) we cannot
inherit the Kingdom of God (Paul to the Corinthians, i-Cor.15:50).
Until the resurrection, at Christ’s coming, we shall not be changed
from corruptible flesh into incorruptible spirit (Paul—i Cor. 15:50-53 -22-23).
Until the resurrection, therefore, we cannot see, enter into, or inherit
the Kingdom of God. We cannot be born again until the resurrection!
-
God’s Spirit entering and dwelling in one compares to the physical sperm impregnating
the ovum—the imparting of eternal spirit life, later to produce—to bring forth—
a spirit person! A fertilized ovum—an embryo—is not a born human person.
Life from the father has been imparted to it—he has begotten it—but neither
embryo nor fetus is yet a born person. In the same manner, the Spirit-begotten human
is not, yet, a spirit person or being, as Jesus said he shall be when born again!
When one, after repentance, faith and baptism, receives the Holy Spirit,
the Spirit of God puts him into—baptizes him into—God’s Church.
The Church is called the body of Christ.(i-Cor. 12:13).
The Church is called “Jerusalem above,” or “the heavenly Jerusalem” (Heb. 12:22-23)
Galatians 4:26: “But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
The human mother of the fetus within her womb serves the function of feeding her
unborn child with physical food, so that it may develop and grow physically.
And also she carries it where she may best protect it from physical injury or harm,
until parturition—delivery from her womb.
The spiritual mother—the Church—is commissioned to “feed the flock”
(iPet. 5:2) through the ministry which God has set in the Church .
“[f]or the perfecting of the saints … for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son
of God, unto a perfect man …” (Eph. 4:11-13).
also to protect these conceived but yet unborn children of God from spiritual harm.
“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with
every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they
lie in wait to deceive”
Then, at the time of the resurrection, we in the Church—the spiritual mother—
shall be delivered from her, and born into—brought forth into—the Kingdom—
the spirit-composed family of God.
We are now flesh—vile corruptible flesh subject to rotting and decay.
But at Christ’s coming, when we shall be born of God, this vile body
shall be changed, and made exactly like Jesus in His glorified body!
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
-To be born of the spirit is made plain in this passage...
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?
and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,
but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body,
and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
-Paul explains when, at the last trump. We will be CHANGED to spirit, changed
such that we do not see corruption. Changed to immortality.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
-
The Apostle Paul made clear that the Kingdom of God is something a human
may inherit, but not in this age—not while he is composed of material flesh.
He may, now, become only an heir, not yet an inheritor!
The Kingdom of God will be composed of spirit beings—not of humans!
When born of the Spirit, one will be delivered from the Church of God (physical)
into the Kingdom of God (a Kingdom of spirit beings!). Gods family
Because the creature itself also [shall be delivered] from the bondage
of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
which according to his abundant mercy [hath begotten us] again
unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible,
by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
-The word used here for "Being born again" is: G313; to beget...bear again.
It means begettal, not birth. If you don't understand the difference, ask your wife.
God used the physical birth cycle, to show us the birth into spirit beings[future].
That which is born of the flesh is flesh: in a physical birth, we are physical beings.
But that which is born of the Spirit is spirit: in a spiritual birth, we will be spirit beings!
Until born again, we cannot see the Kingdom of God
(Jesus to Nicodemus, John 3:3).
Until born again, we cannot enter into the Kingdom of God
(Jesus to Nicodemus, John 3:5).
Until no longer flesh, but changed into spirit being, we cannot enter into
the Kingdom of God (Jesus to Nicodemus, John 3:6-8).
While still flesh and blood (as Nicodemus was and we are) we cannot
inherit the Kingdom of God (Paul to the Corinthians, i-Cor.15:50).
Until the resurrection, at Christ’s coming, we shall not be changed
from corruptible flesh into incorruptible spirit (Paul—i Cor. 15:50-53 -22-23).
Until the resurrection, therefore, we cannot see, enter into, or inherit
the Kingdom of God. We cannot be born again until the resurrection!
-
God’s Spirit entering and dwelling in one compares to the physical sperm impregnating
the ovum—the imparting of eternal spirit life, later to produce—to bring forth—
a spirit person! A fertilized ovum—an embryo—is not a born human person.
Life from the father has been imparted to it—he has begotten it—but neither
embryo nor fetus is yet a born person. In the same manner, the Spirit-begotten human
is not, yet, a spirit person or being, as Jesus said he shall be when born again!
When one, after repentance, faith and baptism, receives the Holy Spirit,
the Spirit of God puts him into—baptizes him into—God’s Church.
The Church is called the body of Christ.(i-Cor. 12:13).
The Church is called “Jerusalem above,” or “the heavenly Jerusalem” (Heb. 12:22-23)
Galatians 4:26: “But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.”
The human mother of the fetus within her womb serves the function of feeding her
unborn child with physical food, so that it may develop and grow physically.
And also she carries it where she may best protect it from physical injury or harm,
until parturition—delivery from her womb.
The spiritual mother—the Church—is commissioned to “feed the flock”
(iPet. 5:2) through the ministry which God has set in the Church .
“[f]or the perfecting of the saints … for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son
of God, unto a perfect man …” (Eph. 4:11-13).
also to protect these conceived but yet unborn children of God from spiritual harm.
“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with
every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they
lie in wait to deceive”
Then, at the time of the resurrection, we in the Church—the spiritual mother—
shall be delivered from her, and born into—brought forth into—the Kingdom—
the spirit-composed family of God.
We are now flesh—vile corruptible flesh subject to rotting and decay.
But at Christ’s coming, when we shall be born of God, this vile body
shall be changed, and made exactly like Jesus in His glorified body!
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits;
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
-To be born of the spirit is made plain in this passage...
1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up?
and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be,
but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body,
and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound,
and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
-Paul explains when, at the last trump. We will be CHANGED to spirit, changed
such that we do not see corruption. Changed to immortality.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
-
The Apostle Paul made clear that the Kingdom of God is something a human
may inherit, but not in this age—not while he is composed of material flesh.
He may, now, become only an heir, not yet an inheritor!
The Kingdom of God will be composed of spirit beings—not of humans!
When born of the Spirit, one will be delivered from the Church of God (physical)
into the Kingdom of God (a Kingdom of spirit beings!). Gods family
Because the creature itself also [shall be delivered] from the bondage
of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
I'm not pointing directly to you with this statement and appreciate your comment. I do agree with using G and H to a point. Gaining knowledge is great but you better watch how much study it can snare a mind. No better teacher than the HolySpirit, what we have had is some preacher-teachers that don't know themselves, and the masses (Christians) think this is it, this is all there is. But you have those that are hungry like many in this forum and others that want to know. Jesus said "in that day you will know." As I am reading through the thread and seeing what I take as the 'bible needs help being translationed' type feel to it, not all comments but a few.
I'm thinking "you know these guys don't sound much different from the Exchristian-forum (I don't believe there is such a thing as exChristian) that exists." Maybe they should take a look and give an arguement there. Blows me away seeing some on the edge of not trusting the HolySpirit, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around it.
I'm thinking "you know these guys don't sound much different from the Exchristian-forum (I don't believe there is such a thing as exChristian) that exists." Maybe they should take a look and give an arguement there. Blows me away seeing some on the edge of not trusting the HolySpirit, I have a hard time wrapping my brain around it.
Yep. An angel is a messenger sent by God to deliver a message. Old and new testiment is full of proof. Not sure if you have ever read any verses with angels in them. They are also called sons of God, sons of man, there are many terms for them, but one thing you can be sure of in every case they had a spirit with a body that could be seen. Who do you think the embody ment of the holy spirit is. Im guessing you dont believe in the trinity.
It might benifit you to spend more time in g and h,
You seems you put limatations on the Holy Spirit. He can guide any one at any time.
It might benifit you to spend more time in g and h,
You seems you put limatations on the Holy Spirit. He can guide any one at any time.
I agree, there is no better teacher than the Holy Spirit. But original text was in greek, hebrew and arameic. So when i study in english and im getting snared as you call it. The Holy Spirit all was takes me back to original text. Greek and hebrew. I have enjoyed our conversation. Hang in there and stay in his word.
What's odd about translating ἄνωθεν as again is that it is not used that way anywhere else in scripture (13 times in the NT; 23 times in the LXX) . It always means from above when referring to location, from the top when referring to objects, or from the start when referring to time.
πάλιν is the word that is almost universally used to mean again (141 times in the NT; 89 times in the LXX).
So it seems that the only reason that ἄνωθεν was translated as again is because translators rationalized that Nicodemus wouldn't have asked how a person could be born a second time unless Jesus had said born again.
However, Nicodemus was a carnal man who had no understanding of spiritual realities. He was godly enough to recognize that Jesus was sent from GOD (because he did miracles), but his view was limited to the physical realities of Israel and the law of Moses. So when Jesus said born from above, Nicodemus could only think in terms of this world (physical birth) and responded accordingly. He had no concept of a spiritual birth because to him salvation was due to fleshly birth, ie, being a son of Abraham,
πάλιν is the word that is almost universally used to mean again (141 times in the NT; 89 times in the LXX).
So it seems that the only reason that ἄνωθεν was translated as again is because translators rationalized that Nicodemus wouldn't have asked how a person could be born a second time unless Jesus had said born again.
However, Nicodemus was a carnal man who had no understanding of spiritual realities. He was godly enough to recognize that Jesus was sent from GOD (because he did miracles), but his view was limited to the physical realities of Israel and the law of Moses. So when Jesus said born from above, Nicodemus could only think in terms of this world (physical birth) and responded accordingly. He had no concept of a spiritual birth because to him salvation was due to fleshly birth, ie, being a son of Abraham,