You Are A New Creation!

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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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Non-sequitur. Your logic implies that suffering has a deleterious effect on perfection, whereas the bible says that Christ was perfected through his sufferings.
One more question to ask you. Do you know your works? Do you know what or how much you will suffer for HIS NAME?

Do you want to discuss the works of all those who are called INTO CHRIST?
And should we compare one another's works? To see if any can BUILD to their stature in CHRIST JESUS?

Here is a question to ask you, please let me know if you can bear the works that those mentioned in Revelation 12 will bear?

These works which will proceed those who did not love their lives EVEN TO THE DEATH, but held to the TESTIMONY of JESUS?


Tell me what those "works" were.

Since you believe you are able to "suffer" as CHRIST suffered...if indeed I am understanding you, are you implying that to suffer is perfection?

Then if that is the TRUTH, I don't know if I can suffer...but I do know this, I pray that HE will keep me from THAT DAY...because I don't know if I can...

How 'bout you?
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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I think you need to review CHRIST"S WORK as HIGH PRIEST and WHY HE SUFFERED In all things and was made perfect in suffering (so as to be the SOURCE of SALVATION for all those who put their faith in HIM) but that the children are of flesh, and they too will suffer...
 
Mar 23, 2016
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A verse that came to me as I was reading through the pages of this thread:

1 Corinthians 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

To see through a glass darkly. We do not "see" with clarity. We see only a reflection of what is because we are incapable in our present state (which is "as a child" (vs 11) no matter how "mature" we are in the Lord).

Because we see through a glass darkly we know only in part. We only know a measure of what we will know in the future. And we know only that which God sees fit that we should know. I do not believe God withholds anything from us, but He waits until we are ready to know that which He reveals to us.

In the future we will see face to face. There will be nothing between us and the Lord and we will be able to look upon Him with unveiled eyes. There will be nothing between us and Him to obscure our vision of Him.

Also in the future we shall know even as also [we] are known. This is what I have been thinking upon as I read through the thread. God knows us as we will be and I believe He looks upon us as we will be --- clothed in the righteousness which He has provided to us. We only know ourselves as we are right now at this point in time. However, God has given us glimpses of what we shall be. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with holding to that vision of ourselves even while we are in this tabernacle of flesh.
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
And I was reminded of what that mad wacko WOF hyper gracer Martin Luther said;

"The sin underneath all our sins is the lie of the serpent that we cannot trust the love and grace of Christ and that we must take matters into our own hands.”
 
L

ladylynn

Guest
And I was reminded of what that mad wacko WOF hyper gracer Martin Luther said;

"The sin underneath all our sins is the lie of the serpent that we cannot trust the love and grace of Christ and that we must take matters into our own hands.”




​Wow., didn't know he said that. Very much agree with that statement!!
 
L

LaurenTM

Guest
And I was reminded of what that mad wacko WOF hyper gracer Martin Luther said;

"The sin underneath all our sins is the lie of the serpent that we cannot trust the love and grace of Christ and that we must take matters into our own hands.”

exactly. the original lie was 'has God said.' has God really said?

and we know how that ended

don't add and don't subtract
 
Feb 24, 2015
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I think you need to review CHRIST"S WORK as HIGH PRIEST and WHY HE SUFFERED In all things and was made perfect in suffering (so as to be the SOURCE of SALVATION for all those who put their faith in HIM) but that the children are of flesh, and they too will suffer...
Rejoice in the Lord, you who are righteous, and praise his holy name.
Psalm 97:12

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 1:4

So many do not believe they are truly holy and blameless after being counted so in Christ.

What is encouraging is scripture supports this reality rather than denies it.
So is it the work of the accuser that denies us walking in what Christ has delivered.
Who is the great accuser and liar and who here has come up with good reason why this
is not the reality Christ purchased us through the cross?

And how can you be sure we know? By talking about what it means to walk in righteousness,
which is exactly what the Apostles called us to, to walk in purity and holiness,
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
Rejoice in the Lord, you who are righteous, and praise his holy name.
Psalm 97:12

For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.
Eph 1:4

So many do not believe they are truly holy and blameless after being counted so in Christ.

What is encouraging is scripture supports this reality rather than denies it.
So is it the work of the accuser that denies us walking in what Christ has delivered.
Who is the great accuser and liar and who here has come up with good reason why this
is not the reality Christ purchased us through the cross?

And how can you be sure we know? By talking about what it means to walk in righteousness,
which is exactly what the Apostles called us to, to walk in purity and holiness,
My house is not divided, sir.
Satan has no power over those who are IN CHRIST JESUS.
Satan can accuse all he wants, and will accuse...but satan can't cast out GOD'S HOLY SPIRIT.

For greater is HE who is in me...than 'itty bitty he" who is in the world...

In fact, CHRIST'S PRAYER to the FATHER for those whom THE FATHER has given HIM out of the world is sufficient...

Therefore, I don't really have to do anything to secure or keep myself "holy" other than to REMAIN IN HIM, do what is right in a world that is far from righteous...and to be at peace with all men as much as it is in my ability to do so...

How can we know we are in HIM? THE SPIRIT testifies with our spirit that we are the children of GOD...in fact, this ANOINTING is REAL...it is why we know what we know...and it is why no man can convince us otherwise.
 
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miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
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I'd rather talk about the RIGHTEOUSNESS made known which is from faith to faith.
From first to last.

And I'd also like to remind you that the "righteous" shall live by THAT FAITH...
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
And I was reminded of what that mad wacko WOF hyper gracer Martin Luther said;

"The sin underneath all our sins is the lie of the serpent that we cannot trust the love and grace of Christ and that we must take matters into our own hands.”
Wait a second, are you SURE that this "mad wacko WOF hyper gracer Martin Luther" meant what you have interpreted him as meaning?

You see, when one takes matters into their own hands, they make manifest that it isn't by faith, by HIS SPIRIT...but that it is by their own power and might that they take matters into their own hands.

I believe that this man might have been actually saying, Be still, do not "go out", do not avenge, do not take matters into your own hands, do not live by the sword?

And yet, you called him a mad wacko?

Are you being facetious?

Is this more to this comment that I do not know?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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MERCY covers over a multitude of sin, sir.
Not only those whom you wish to correct in ignorance, sir...but our own as well...

Did you know that anyone who stands over GOD in judgment of another...STANDS OVER GOD in JUDGMENT OF ANOTHER?
you know, i like you. i really do.

but did you know that in the same teaching where Christ said "
judge not, lest ye be judged" ((Matthew 7:1)) He just a paragraph or two later starts warning about false teachers, who are ravenous wolves on the inside but who look for all the world like sheep on the outside ((Matthew 7:15-20)) ? that we will know them by their fruit?
how are we supposed to discern these, if we don't "judge" whether their doctrine is correct or not?
how are we to know them, if we don't "judge" their fruit somehow? they are craftily hidden among us!
how are we supposed to restore a brother or sister who is caught in a sin ((gently)) if we do not "judge" what is sin to be sin? we have to be able to say confidently what is contrary to God and what is admissible!
and here is the duty of an elder in the body:

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
(Titus 1:9)

so an elder must be able to discern what is sound doctrine and what is contradictory -- he must "judge it" -- and he must be ready to rebuke those who teach false things -- he must "judge" what is taught, whether it is true or false.

we will judge angels. we are not to "never judge at all" but to judge rightly: judging sin as sin, truth as truth, lies as lies, goodness as goodness. but we don't judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart: God sees those things.

"judging" -- particularly these days - is a thing the spirit of the age teaches is #1 taboo. and we're most of us not far removed from the corrupted way of thinking that He saved us from - and personally, i believe that because of the flesh, not one of us is entirely unaffected by it. a whole lot of us are afraid to exercise any judgement at all, except in very obvious cases, at least superficially - while others feel they have the authority to judge everyone.

i ain't saying you are wrong - you are right, but maybe it's not the whole picture. just want to caution us all to consider what the scripture really means regarding judgement. because it is true - we cannot condemn others. but we are those whose eyes have been opened to right and wrong: do we not love truth, and hate lies? so we live like we do.



 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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Are you saying you are actually one with Christ in some mystical form? So you have already achieved union with God and are part of the trinity?
Boy oh boy...I must have overlooked this.
What is your understanding of the Church?
 
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FreeNChrist

Guest
Wait a second, are you SURE that this "mad wacko WOF hyper gracer Martin Luther" meant what you have interpreted him as meaning?

You see, when one takes matters into their own hands, they make manifest that it isn't by faith, by HIS SPIRIT...but that it is by their own power and might that they take matters into their own hands.

I believe that this man might have been actually saying, Be still, do not "go out", do not avenge, do not take matters into your own hands, do not live by the sword?

And yet, you called him a mad wacko?

Are you being facetious?

Is this more to this comment that I do not know?
I don't see where I "interpreted" the meaning. But, I'm sure most get the meaning just fine. The rest was sarcasm.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
you know, i like you. i really do.

but did you know that in the same teaching where Christ said "
judge not, lest ye be judged" ((Matthew 7:1)) He just a paragraph or two later starts warning about false teachers, who are ravenous wolves on the inside but who look for all the world like sheep on the outside ((Matthew 7:15-20)) ? that we will know them by their fruit?
how are we supposed to discern these, if we don't "judge" whether their doctrine is correct or not?
how are we to know them, if we don't "judge" their fruit somehow? they are craftily hidden among us!
how are we supposed to restore a brother or sister who is caught in a sin ((gently)) if we do not "judge" what is sin to be sin? we have to be able to say confidently what is contrary to God and what is admissible!
and here is the duty of an elder in the body:

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
(Titus 1:9)

so an elder must be able to discern what is sound doctrine and what is contradictory -- he must "judge it" -- and he must be ready to rebuke those who teach false things -- he must "judge" what is taught, whether it is true or false.

we will judge angels. we are not to "never judge at all" but to judge rightly: judging sin as sin, truth as truth, lies as lies, goodness as goodness. but we don't judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart: God sees those things.

"judging" -- particularly these days - is a thing the spirit of the age teaches is #1 taboo. and we're most of us not far removed from the corrupted way of thinking that He saved us from - and personally, i believe that because of the flesh, not one of us is entirely unaffected by it. a whole lot of us are afraid to exercise any judgement at all, except in very obvious cases, at least superficially - while others feel they have the authority to judge everyone.

i ain't saying you are wrong - you are right, but maybe it's not the whole picture. just want to caution us all to consider what the scripture really means regarding judgement. because it is true - we cannot condemn others. but we are those whose eyes have been opened to right and wrong: do we not love truth, and hate lies? so we live like we do.




Maybe I am not being clear?
What I mean is that those who are looking for an opportunity to somehow "restore their brother" already are sinners themselves in thinking, before seeing that they are restoring their brothers.

yes, we are to judge.
But here on a website?
How can someone call the other a sinner and that they need to be corrected if they haven't seen their brother/sister sin?

That is what I was trying to convey to this man who is so sure that those who preach GRACE are somehow sitting back on their laurels, or worse yet, going out and taking the GIFT of GOD'S GRACE as some sort of free license to sin.

Mercy towards those who are sinners, when we see their sins...is to correct them gently...follow the model...if, if, if you see your brother sin, tell him his sin in private...if they do not repent, call in a witness, and if they still do not repent, bring him before the Church and then if that doesn't work, well we aren't supposed to keep in fellowship with them.

But here, on a website, possibilities,suggestions, scenarios? Why? It is a discussion about possible sin, assumptions of sin, accusations of sin?

When we see a brother sister sin...we certainly don't announce it to everyone or even suggest and accuse if we do NOT fully know...and with that said, do not take the words of a middle man's opinions of another as having sinned. Find the truth out yourself on whether it is true first and foremost before "correcting", "accusing" or anything.

If you haven't seen your brother/sister sin, how can one go and accuse them of it, or even listen to the gossip of another saying they have sinned.

Mercy covers over a multitude of sin...not only to the one who is in need, but also the one who is being merciful as well.
For if you aren't merciful, judgment without mercy will also be expected...

We are to judge.
But, we aren't to judge wrongly and without evidence...

That is wrong...
 
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Cee

Senior Member
May 14, 2010
2,169
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Why I believe we are a new creation.

Many Scriptures say we are in Christ. At first glance I didn't have a clue what that meant. It was some vague concept that I used to ask God about. I used to research for hours on Google what "in Christ" actually meant. I came across very few insights as I researched this concept.

I used to wake up in the morning and I would pray to Holy Spirit to teach me and guide me, and He would talk to me about this new creation reality. Now at first to be honest I was very confused. Because I looked through Scripture and I found the words "new creation" only 2x. But Holy Spirit told me I would understand in time. It wasn't for a few years that I started to actually "get it".

So around this time, I really struggled with legalism. I would drive 43 miles per hour because I knew I would add 2 miles when I went down hill. And I didn't want to speed over 45 mph. So I set it at cruise around 43 mph. My friends absolutely hated driving behind me or in front of me because I would drive so slow. Why? Because I was consumed by focusing on my sin. I saw God as a great mighty Judge who was waiting to strike me with a lightning bolt as soon as I stepped out of line.

It was around this time that Holy Spirit started talking to me about love. And as I would read Scripture He would show me how my lens was incorrect. I would read Scripture and afterwards I didn't feel happy, joyful, or even refreshed. I actually felt really bad. I used to tell myself that's because the "Sword of the Spirit" was cutting my heart. But to be honest, I started to not want to read the Book of Books anymore.

So I prayed to God, why do I feel like this??? And Holy Spirit told me it's because I saw Scripture through a lens of problems I needed to overcome instead of promises I got to receive. So this was a little hard for me to swallow. But over time He showed me this Scripture here:

Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Basically, He taught me that faith is actually receiving. Believing He is good and He rewards those who seek Him.

Then He showed me this Scripture:

Matt 7:11 If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him!

Suddenly things started getting a little clearer to me, I had a horrible lens of God! I didn't see Him as loving at all. In fact, because of a lot of crappy things that happened in my life, I didn't really understand much about family, love, etc. I had some ideas, but no real clear ideas. So He had to start from scratch with me.

I spent probably a year or so, just meditating on a few Scriptures about love.

You probably know them. The royal command to love Him and love others as ourselves. God is love. If we don't love our brothers how can we say we love Him who is invisible?

But probably the big Scripture that really hit home for me was this one:

Eph 3:14For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, 15from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, 16that according to the riches of his glory he may grant you to be strengthened with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith—that you, being rooted and grounded in love, 18may have strength to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, 19and to know the love of Christ that surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled with all the fullness of God.

I have meditated on this one Scripture for a long, long time. Namely because of the last line. Even though the entire passage was reality altering for me.

In the last line we see: His unexplainable love (beyond knowledge) actually fills us with the fullness of Him.

Once this clicked, I was sold, I would eat, sleep, and breathe love. It made sense to me, God is love, loving one another as we love Him, and the more I know love the more I would know Him.

And that's what took me into the fruit of the Spirit.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. 24And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

The fruit of the Spirit became my little check list. I would basically say to myself, self you need to be loving, joyful, peaceful, kind, good, etc. And it was my check list of things I had to DO. And as I would do that, I felt like I was growing. Which in a way I was, but then Holy Spirit showed me how twisted my mind was in this area.

He said to me, you don't HAVE TO do them, you GET TO do them.

And that's when I realized somewhere in my head, loving people, being nice to people, was an effort instead of privilege, thats when I realized my checklist was actually being like the older brother. The son who worked in the field out of obligation instead of joyful obedience.

And then as this sunk in more and more, and I began sharing this with other people. The Holy Spirit took it to a whole nother level. You don't just do them, you get to do them, but even more importantly you are them.

And that's when I started to understand how important what it meant to be a new creation. And the entire Scripture opened up to me. I started to see that when Paul spoke about being in Christ and doing things through Christ, he was actually talking about his new man.

Then I started to understand why Jesus said He was the Vine and we are His branches. And apart from Him we can do nothing. And how we rested in Him. And as we did that, He actually transforms us from the inside out. And the fruit we bear gives Him glory instead of our "checklists".

As I shared these revelations with people, I saw sin fall away, I saw relationships with God increase, younger college age kids started to enjoy evangelism, as I prayed for God to tell me how He saw people in Christ and I shared them, hope started to be birthed and people started having encounters with Him. And as they discovered His love for them, they started to become filled with His love for others.

I could tell you so many stories about the power of the gospel.

But I just wanted to share why I believe in the new creation reality that Christ gave us. I know it sounds mystical, I thought so, but I think thats why we've been told to be like little children, that the natural mind will be against the things of the spirit, and people would call us foolish for believing them.

I'm willing to be His fool though, He's just that good.

C.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
I don't see where I "interpreted" the meaning. But, I'm sure most get the meaning just fine. The rest was sarcasm.
Do you mean you called Martin Luther a "wacko" sarcastically?

One thing about me is that I do not understand sarcasm or subtle jokes or word play.
And I don't know much about Martin Luther to make any judgment on whether he knew and believed THE GOSPEL or didn't.

So, if you could just tell me...
Do you believe what Martin Luther said was that he was saying we are to rest in GOD'S SOVEREIGNTY understanding that all things (whether good or bad which may come up against us) are under HIS SOVEREIGN control?
Which is why Martin Luther said, do not take matters into your own hands...but trust that GOD who is GOOD, will bring out the good in all things...even when what we see before us, appears to be everything and anything but good.
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
you know, i like you. i really do.

but did you know that in the same teaching where Christ said "
judge not, lest ye be judged" ((Matthew 7:1)) He just a paragraph or two later starts warning about false teachers, who are ravenous wolves on the inside but who look for all the world like sheep on the outside ((Matthew 7:15-20)) ? that we will know them by their fruit?
how are we supposed to discern these, if we don't "judge" whether their doctrine is correct or not?
how are we to know them, if we don't "judge" their fruit somehow? they are craftily hidden among us!
how are we supposed to restore a brother or sister who is caught in a sin ((gently)) if we do not "judge" what is sin to be sin? we have to be able to say confidently what is contrary to God and what is admissible!
and here is the duty of an elder in the body:

He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
(Titus 1:9)

so an elder must be able to discern what is sound doctrine and what is contradictory -- he must "judge it" -- and he must be ready to rebuke those who teach false things -- he must "judge" what is taught, whether it is true or false.

we will judge angels. we are not to "never judge at all" but to judge rightly: judging sin as sin, truth as truth, lies as lies, goodness as goodness. but we don't judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart: God sees those things.

"judging" -- particularly these days - is a thing the spirit of the age teaches is #1 taboo. and we're most of us not far removed from the corrupted way of thinking that He saved us from - and personally, i believe that because of the flesh, not one of us is entirely unaffected by it. a whole lot of us are afraid to exercise any judgement at all, except in very obvious cases, at least superficially - while others feel they have the authority to judge everyone.

i ain't saying you are wrong - you are right, but maybe it's not the whole picture. just want to caution us all to consider what the scripture really means regarding judgement. because it is true - we cannot condemn others. but we are those whose eyes have been opened to right and wrong: do we not love truth, and hate lies? so we live like we do.




We are to judge (and correct) GENTLY when we see an issue.
We are NOT to accuse when we haven't seen ANY issue.
 
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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,428
13,369
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In your book Elijah sinned by fearing Jezebel was going to kill him
sure, i'll say it. that was sin.
whatever is not of faith?
was that of faith?

when Christ says "
be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" -- friends, this is an hard teaching​. that is an unobtainable goal. all you so-called 'sinless' people, are you equal to the Holy One in your own perfection? whatever falls short of the glory of God? how many of you, for every millisecond, in every aspect, are ≥ the glory of the One who is worthy of all glory, honor and praise?
i don't believe a single one of you can convince me that even for a single nanosecond of your life you have ever met this mark!

on your best day, filthy rags.

our righteousness is imputed to us: it is a righteousness that is by faith in the Son of God, not by our will or effort, but by God's Living Mercy. the everlasting kind. it's not of ourselves. yes, we are are holy; set apart: yes, we are being sanctified, and there is no more condemnation for us ((because with Him we died)) -
- does anyone who knows me seriously think post is an "
hyper-legalist" ??
i prefer to think i just have a high view of holiness, and a great deal to be grateful for! praise God!!
He looks over all this, and forgives everything i have against Him, even removes it!!




((this is replying to 10 pages ago, i know i know lol . . sorry - still trying to catch up but this thread keeps growing!
;)))

 
Sep 4, 2012
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But I just wanted to share why I believe in the new creation reality that Christ gave us. I know it sounds mystical, I thought so, but I think thats why we've been told to be like little children, that the natural mind will be against the things of the spirit, and people would call us foolish for believing them.
I was hoping that you were going to get into the hours you spent watching and reading hyper grace videos and books that led you to your conclusions. Oh well, maybe next time.