Works Complete Faith?

[Cameron143]

Paul said that. I'm reading Paul, so I'm saying it.

Again, Ro 14:23 says a Christian who sins is "condemned". How do you interpret what Paul says there?
How do you reconcile your interpretation of Ro 8:1 with 14:23?

I've spent the last hour at least explaining this. Begin with grace. Salvation is a gift. Maintaining our salvation is a part of that grace. Anything added to that negates grace.
Having this as established truth, anything that seems contrary to this must be reconciled in regard to this truth. Anything that isn't reconciled to this, no matter how much it seems as though it is true, is false.

 

[romans113336]

@Magenta @mailmandan @TheDivineWatermark @Cameron143 @cv5

You're all trying wave Ro 14:23 away, as if it does not mean a Christian is condemned by God for sinning by claiming "no, he's self condemned, not condemned by God".

1. Does God condemn "sin", or is God unrighteous? Don't we need forgiveness--and doesn't that mean we sin not just "condemn ourselves"?

2. Even if you wanted to argue, "No, it's about him not bringing condemnation on himself", remember that he does so by destroying his brother by misleading his brother to destroy his own conscience by encouraging them to practice what their own conscience cannot allow them to practice. This destruction of your brother is ALSO a sin against God, destroying God's work, which is a real sin, as well, and leads to condemnation.

There's no way out of the reading I have espoused.

That doesn't mean I have it all together, or that everyone should follow me, it just means I am saying what the text is saying.

 

[romans113336]

I've spent the last hour at least explaining this. Begin with grace. Salvation is a gift. Maintaining our salvation is a part of that grace. Anything added to that negates grace.
Having this as established truth, anything that seems contrary to this must be reconciled in regard to this truth. Anything that isn't reconciled to this, no matter how much it seems as though it is true, is false.

So, in other words, you don't believe Ro 14:23, or you don't believe it actually says a Christian is condemned if he sins? What does it say if it does it say that then?

 

[Cameron143]

@Magenta @mailmandan @TheDivineWatermark @Cameron143 @cv5

You're all trying wave Ro 14:23 away, as if it does not mean a Christian is condemned by God for sinning by claiming "no, he's self condemned, not condemned by God".

1. Does God condemn "sin", or is God unrighteous? Don't we need forgiveness--and doesn't that mean we sin not just "condemn ourselves"?

2. Even if you wanted to argue, "No, it's about him not bringing condemnation on himself", remember that he does so by destroying his brother by misleading his brother to destroy his own conscience by encouraging them to practice what their own conscience cannot allow them to practice. This destruction of your brother is ALSO a sin against God, destroying God's work, which is a real sin, as well, and leads to condemnation.

There's no way out of the reading I have espoused.

That doesn't mean I have it all together, or that everyone should follow me, it just means I am saying what the text is saying.

What number 1 doesn't take into account is that God has already condemned all our sins on the cross. There is nothing left to condemn.

 

[romans113336]

Yes.

I'm a little confused by your agreeing with this, and, yet, your disagreeing with my assertions on Ro 14:23 and how it coalesces with my assertions about Ja 2 (ie, "justified by works").

 

[John146]

I am merely trying to follow Scripture.
Again, how do you hold your view when you read we're "condemned" if we sin (Ro 14:23)?
You still haven't answered that.

God relates to us not only through Christ's work, but also our own, apparently.
Have you read Revelation 2 and 3?

There is no condemnation or judgment, to the man who walks after the spirit. If a saved man walks after the flesh, he can face condemnation in the temporal sense, chastisement from God.

Condemnation or damnation can be temporary or eternal. Note eternal condemnation in (Mk. 16:16; Jn. 5:24; 1 Cor. 11:32). Note temporal condemnation in (Rom. 14:22,23; 1 Cor. 11:29) - context

 

[romans113336]

What number 1 doesn't take into account is that God has already condemned all our sins on the cross. There is nothing left to condemn.

So, how do you square you belief, espoused here, with the doctrine that Paul taught--ie, that if a Christian sins he is condemned?

 

[Cameron143]

So, how do you square you belief, espoused here, with the doctrine that Paul taught--ie, that if a Christian sins he is condemned?

Your understanding is flawed.

 

[romans113336]

There is no condemnation or judgment, to the man who walks after the spirit. If a saved man walks after the flesh, he can face condemnation in the temporal sense, chastisement from God.

Condemnation or damnation can be temporary or eternal. Note eternal condemnation in (Mk. 16:16; Jn. 5:24; 1 Cor. 11:32). Note temporal condemnation in (Rom. 14:22,23; 1 Cor. 11:29) - context

This is at the very least a step in the right direction--at least someone is admitting Christians can be condemned.

My initial post compared the condemnation (opposite of justification) with my belief about James 2: walking in faith, not merely having faith, is necessary for ongoing justification.

Would you, then, agree, or disagree?

 

[romans113336]

Your understanding is flawed.

In what way is it flawed, please?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Excepting for the fact that that (ie, we can still fall under God's wrath and forfeit the promise after being "saved") is exactly what he is teaching:

1 Corinthians 9
27but I strictly discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.

Look at the context... notice how verse 1 says, "are ye not my work in the Lord?" (said to ppl questioning his apostleship--throughout both Corinthians epistles, Paul is vindicating his apostleship--that's the overall context)...

...then notice in the rest of the chpt how much the word [and additionally the idea of] "preach / preached / preaching" is used, esp. starting in v.14 (though the entire chpt is covering this Subject); notice how v.19 says, "FOR though I be free from all men, YET I have made myself servant unto all, THAT I might GAIN the more"... then note what follows in vv.20-22 which ends with "that I might by all means save some."


This is the context surrounding the last verse of this chpt (the verse you are pointing out), about Paul saying he "keep under my body, and bring it into subjection [he had just described how, in the previous verses]: LEST BY ANY MEANS, when I have PREACHED to others, myself should be disqualified" (note: not "lose/forfeit SALVATION"--[i.e. not "be rejected BY GOD"]--which is not the subject of this context; rather "disqualified" relates to "preaching" [its effectiveness toward OTHERS, etc--the reason he brings his body under subjection...])



Hope that helps. = )

 

[John146]

So, how do you square you belief, espoused here, with the doctrine that Paul taught--ie, that if a Christian sins he is condemned?

Here is an example of temporal condemnation, chastisement from God.

1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

 

[romans113336]

Look at the context... notice how verse 1 says, "are ye not my work in the Lord?" (said to ppl questioning his apostleship--throughout both Corinthians epistles, Paul is vindicating his apostleship--that's the overall context)...

...then notice in the rest of the chpt how much the word [and additionally the idea of] "preach / preached / preaching" is used, esp. starting in v.14 (though the entire chpt is covering this Subject); notice how v.19 says, "FOR though I be free from all men, YET I have made myself servant unto all, THAT I might GAIN the more"... then note what follows in vv.20-22 which ends with "that I might by all means save some."


This is the context surrounding the last verse of this chpt (the verse you are pointing out), about Paul saying he "keep under my body, and bring it into subjection [he had just described how, in the previous verses]: LEST BY ANY MEANS, when I have PREACHED to others, myself should be disqualified" (note: not "lose/forfeit SALVATION"--[i.e. not "be rejected BY GOD"]--which is not the subject of this context)



Hope that helps. = )

Remember that there were no verses or chapters at the outset.

Therefore, there was no break, and no break should be read, between the last verse of Chapter 9 and the first verse of Chapter 10--ie, he goes immediately from how he could be disqualified, despite having already been saved, if he didn't make his body his slave, and keep his flesh in check, to how the Jews, despite having been saved, had fallen under God's wrath for having sinned.

There is no error in my reading of the text.

 

[John146]

This is at the very least a step in the right direction--at least someone is admitting Christians can be condemned.

My initial post compared the condemnation (opposite of justification) with my belief about James 2: walking in faith, not merely having faith, is necessary for ongoing justification.

Would you, then, agree, or disagree?

I do not agree. A man is justified immediately upon belief. A man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Christ is always righteous.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I'll add for a bonus...

verse 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[romans113336]

I do not agree. A man is justified immediately upon belief. A man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Christ is always righteous.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I'll add for a bonus...

verse 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Well, you admitted that a Christian could be "condemned", but "condemned" is the opposite adjudication to "justified", so it is you who is contradicting yourself.

 

[Cameron143]

In what way is it flawed, please?

If Jesus has already been condemned for every sin a believer has or will commit, how can God then condemn them for sins He has already atoned for?

 

[romans113336]

Here is an example of temporal condemnation, chastisement from God.

1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.

I would agree that this is a sign to them of their spiritual estate of condemnation on account of their sin--the INTENT of the sign is to hopefully wake them up to the reality of their spiritual condemnation, and make them straighten their lives out, instead of continuing to live in sin, so that AT LEAST their spirit might be saved, if they repent, and if they return to God and godliness, through them realizing the seriousness of their sin on account of which they suffer the destruction of their flesh (1 Co 5).

Again, though, when the Jews fell under God's wrath for sinning, they also forfeited the promised land, which promise, today, relates to the promise of eternal life in Christ--if you want to define "living in sin" and "falling under God's wrath" and "forfeiting God's promise of eternal life in Christ" as "saved, eternally secure", that is a very odd "saved, eternally secure" indeed.

 

[romans113336]

If Jesus has already been condemned for every sin a believer has or will commit, how can God then condemn them for sins He has already atoned for?

Ask Paul--he's the one who wrote:

Romans 14
23But the one who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

 

[Truthnightmare]

If Jesus has already been condemned for every sin a believer has or will commit, how can God then condemn them for sins He has already atoned for?

Sup bro,

Jesus has already been condemned for every sin a believer has or will commit, how can God

How would you factor in the unpardonable sin?

 

[romans113336]

I do not agree. A man is justified immediately upon belief. A man is justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. The faith of Christ is always righteous.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I'll add for a bonus...

verse 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I never said a person wasn't justified upon hearing with faith--faith is accounted as righteousness, so there is a basis for God justifying--but, thereafter, the believer is to not merely hold faith, but also walk in faith, and that walking in faith, as seen in Ro 14:5,23, and Ja 2 (just two examples--there are more), determine ongoing justification.

The thing is that I recognize NOT ONLY justification by the righteousness of faith, but also "ongoing justification" (Ro 14:23; Ja 2), and "final justification" (eg, Ro 2:6-16) by the righteousness of faith completed by also walking in faith. I'm endeavoring to believe it ALL, not just a sliver of it.