Work Out Your Salvation

[throughfaith]

First, you make a claim about an established position, and then follow up with your opinion, which is a position of some and not necessarily 'the' Christians. And Second, I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of my position except that it appears to oppose your opinion. Perhaps your approach to me is in the sense of a perceived hostility, as it is a common default reaction to fear that which one does not understand rather than to respond with any semblance of uncertainty that likely stems from pride, that would go unnoticed except for practice of self-examination. And I only know from general experience so I hope you do not take this observation all too personally.

But if I stood too firmly with what the crowd opinioned were 'the' Christian position, I would be hard pressed for the ability to receive any necessary corrective influence. For example, the claim that Jude's directive toward pulling others out of the fire with fear (and trembling, I presume), even "hating the garment stained with the flesh" is touching on correcting others with humility, ever cognizant of our own vulnerabilities. That is, the central theme in the entire chapter is a counsel in exhibiting the fruit of mercy toward others and "the garment" is referencing that which we are personally wearing rather than presuming that we are able to, personally, spot clean an other's garment, as that would undoubtedly be a display of pride.

First, you make a claim about an established position, and then follow up with your opinion, which is a position of some and not necessarily 'the' Christians. And Second, I'm not sure you have a clear understanding of my position except that it appears to oppose your opinion. Perhaps your approach to me is in the sense of a perceived hostility, as it is a common default reaction to fear that which one does not understand rather than to respond with any semblance of uncertainty that likely stems from pride, that would go unnoticed except for practice of self-examination. And I only know from general experience so I hope you do not take this observation all too personally.

But if I stood too firmly with what the crowd opinioned were 'the' Christian position, I would be hard pressed for the ability to receive any necessary corrective influence. For example, the claim that Jude's directive toward pulling others out of the fire with fear (and trembling, I presume), even "hating the garment stained with the flesh" is touching on correcting others with humility, ever cognizant of our own vulnerabilities. That is, the central theme in the entire chapter is a counsel in exhibiting the fruit of mercy toward others and "the garment" is referencing that which we are personally wearing rather than presuming that we are able to, personally, spot clean an other's garment, as that would undoubtedly be a display of pride.

Yes you seem to have skim read what I said. I didn't say ' the Christian position ' ,as in some unified agreed upon doctrine . No i said the ' Christian(s ) position . Meaning our ( Christians / believers) position. As is regenerated, Justified , sanctified , sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Forgiven , redeemed , reconciled, seated in heaveny places, Predestined to the future adoption , and such . Chapter 1 of Philippines tells us what chapter 2 is about .
12¶But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;

13So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;

14And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear..

I don't believe its about ' self ' but rather selflessness .

 

[oyster67]

Thought would like to start a thread with this question: What does it mean to work out your salvation with fear and trembling?

This is referring to what comes after we have been saved by the Blood of the Lamb.
The Spirit works out good works when you work in good faith. I believe the fear and trembling may be alluding to awe and appreciation for the privilege of being so-used of the Lord. God in us is such a mind-blowing concept! PTL!

 

[throughfaith]

I will try again. The Bible tells us that God chooses us, elects us, predestines us, ordains us, appoints us to life, etc., but where does the Bible tell us that we are saved/declared just BEFORE we've come to saving faith

(I hope that does it, because I cannot think of a simpler way to ask this question!)

Thanks!

~Deut

Romans 10​

9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;​

10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.​

​

Eph 1 .13 gives a clear order in which a person is saved .

 

[Mem]

Yes you seem to have skim read what I said. I didn't say ' the Christian position ' ,as in some unified agreed upon doctrine . No i said the ' Christian(s ) position . Meaning our ( Christians / believers) position. As is regenerated, Justified , sanctified , sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption, Forgiven , redeemed , reconciled, seated in heaveny places, Predestined to the future adoption , and such . Chapter 1 of Philippines tells us what chapter 2 is about .
12¶But I would ye should understand, brethren, that the things which happened unto me have fallen out rather unto the furtherance of the gospel;

13So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;

14And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear..

I don't believe its about ' self ' but rather selflessness .

Ok, Paul comes from the position of security in his salvation in the face of opposition in Philippians 1 and Chapter 2 proceeds to encourage others to adopt the same attitude of joyfulness, in spite of suffering, with confidence this exhibits the effects, in regards to the interest of others, of a genuine belief in the gospel. Yes, in that way it, Philippians 1-2 anyway, is about selflessness. However, since this thread is asking about 'working out your own salvation,' how can anyone then get around examining their own salvation without self-examination? *and please note that self-examination does not equate to self-condemnation, as that is another form of pride

 

[throughfaith]

Ok, Paul comes from the position of security in his salvation in the face of opposition in Philippians 1 and Chapter 2 proceeds to encourage others to adopt the same attitude of joyfulness, in spite of suffering, with confidence this exhibits the effects, in regards to the interest of others, of a genuine belief in the gospel. Yes, in that way it, Philippians 1-2 anyway, is about selflessness. However, since this thread is asking about 'working out your own salvation,' how can anyone then get around examining their own salvation without self-examination? *and please note that self-examination does not equate to self-condemnation, as that is another form of pride

Heres how Paul 'worked out his own salvation '
Philippines 1.12
12¶But I would ye should UNDERSTAND brethren, that the things which HAPPENED unto me have FALLEN OUT RATHER unto the FURTHERANCE OF THE GOSPEL l;

13So that my bonds in Christ are manifest in all the palace, and in all other places;

14And many of the brethren in the Lord, waxing confident by my bonds, are much more bold to speak the word without fear.

15¶Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will:

16The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds:

17But the other of love, knowing that I am set for THE DEFENSE OF THE GOSPEL .

18What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth,CHRIST IS PREACHED ; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.

19¶For I know that THIS SHALL TURN TO MY !! SALVATION!!!! through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.

21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful FOR YOU .

25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for YOUR !!! FURTHERENCE and joy of faith;

26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming TO YOU .

27¶Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving TOGETHER FOR !!! THE !!! FAITH !!OF THE GOSPEL !!!;

28And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you OF SALVATION , and that of God.

29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to SUFFER for his sake;

30Having the SAME !!! conflict which ye saw in me, and NOW hear to be in me.


That's the context.

Chapter 2
1¶If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,

2Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

3Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.

4Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.

5¶Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Nothing to do with 'self ' or any other spin so many put on these verses .

From when Paul was saved ,all these things and more ' turned ' ( pointed to / derived from ) his salvation. His salvation ' worked out ' . Worked out as described in these verses .

 

[Deuteronomy]

Eph 1 .13 gives a clear order in which a person is saved .

In part.

 

[throughfaith]

In part.

Does it say " in part " ?

 

[throughfaith]

In part.

13¶In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Whats missing?
It looks like a person trusts after hearing the word of truth. Which is the gospel of salvation . After we believe were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise. I believe what it says .

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Dear Friends,

Thought would like to start a thread with this question: What does it mean to work out your salvation with fear and trembling?

Phil 2:12
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, - ESV

Does the verse suggest that salvation needs to be worked for? Does the verse suggest that there are different ways in working out one's salvation? Are we to be in a constant state of fear and trembling as believers?


Do share your perspectives and how does it apply to you?

I think it’s right there in the verse

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,”

Paul’s teachings were much more than saying grace and your saved. For
Instance his Ephesians letter is often taken as his doctrine , but Paul spent theee years in person teaching them the gospel of the kingdom of God living among them and teaching them many things and later he sent a letter to them well after this to encourage them and offer edification they needed and like that verse he’s admonishing obedience to the gospel as in other places

he’s admonishing then on repenting and warning them about losing thier promised inheritance

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we understand Paul’s doctrine as grace alone and nothing else can mean anything we end up rejecting everything he taught and all his dire warnings out repentance and obedience

if we begin with the idea “ grace means we’re all saved and nothing applies “ then we are rejecting all the real stuff Paul taught that changes our understanding to right from wrong

working out our salvation has to do with repenting from the works of the flesh and following the spirit and bearing its fruits out salvstion that Paul was teaching is found in these types of thkngs

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16, 19-

we have to believe the gospel and then walk in and follow after the beliefs it creates in us to hear the gospel and believe like for instance it will create the understanding that we must stop serving sin and start learning and serving Gods good will for us that’s part of salvstion but he makes us able by the gospel

 

[Mem]

Welp, in any case, everyone teaches by the things they do and don't do...right or wrong, and if I haven't learned anything else for all the pretending that I can't read or think for myself, I have learned exactly what a dissembler is!

 

[throughfaith]

I think it’s right there in the verse

“Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence,”

Paul’s teachings were much more than saying grace and your saved. For
Instance his Ephesians letter is often taken as his doctrine , but Paul spent theee years in person teaching them the gospel of the kingdom of God living among them and teaching them many things and later he sent a letter to them well after this to encourage them and offer edification they needed and like that verse he’s admonishing obedience to the gospel as in other places

he’s admonishing then on repenting and warning them about losing thier promised inheritance

“But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:3-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when we understand Paul’s doctrine as grace alone and nothing else can mean anything we end up rejecting everything he taught and all his dire warnings out repentance and obedience

if we begin with the idea “ grace means we’re all saved and nothing applies “ then we are rejecting all the real stuff Paul taught that changes our understanding to right from wrong

working out our salvation has to do with repenting from the works of the flesh and following the spirit and bearing its fruits out salvstion that Paul was teaching is found in these types of thkngs

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16, 19-

we have to believe the gospel and then walk in and follow after the beliefs it creates in us to hear the gospel and believe like for instance it will create the understanding that we must stop serving sin and start learning and serving Gods good will for us that’s part of salvstion but he makes us able by the gospel

You left the chapter and the entire letter ? Could you walk through the chapter itself leading up to that verse please?

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Our sin nature was as a result of the fall when man sinned. I agree with you that when God created Adam and Eve, He created them perfect and without sin but because of the fall, Adam and Eve sinned and their fallen nature was passed along throughout the rest of human genealogy. By descent, we inherited a sinful and fallen nature.

This sounds like the doctrine of original sin. I don't know if I agree with this.

Ezekiel 18:19-20
19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

Our sin nature was as a result of the fall when man sinned. I agree with you that when God created Adam and Eve, He created them perfect and without sin but because of the fall, Adam and Eve sinned and their fallen nature was passed along throughout the rest of human genealogy. By descent, we inherited a sinful and fallen nature.

ESV

Yep, what you write in the doctrine of Original Sin.

Original sin is the Christian doctrine which says that because of the sin of Adam and Eve, original innocence is lost and all subsequent human beings are born into a state of sinfulness. The doctrine states that human beings do not commit this sin but rather contract it from the Fall of Adam and Eve

 

[Nebuchadnezzer]

This just cannot be True. We are all given a specific Sin Nature that includes very specific things. I am friends with now a very Godly man whom after speaking with me regarding the Gospel of Circumcision for perhaps thousands of hours, he has been liberated of that Sinful Nature and no longer covets other men.

All of us are given specific sins that we are attracted to. We do not determine these evils WITH God. Where are you getting this from?

Only those who hate God does He give them over to specific sins.

Deuteronomy 5:9
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on their children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Deuteronomy 5:10
but showing loving devotion to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commandments.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Hello Magpi89, we are saved (given "ETERNAL life") from the moment that we first believe .. e.g. John 5:24, so the Apostle Paul is hardly instructing the saints to ~work for/work at/work up~ our salvation, rather, we are to "work OUT" (express outwardly/express in action) the salvation that we ~already~ possess, that which God has ~already~ worked in us (and that He continues to work in us .. e.g. Philippians 1:6, 2:13 cf Hebrews 7:25).

I suppose you could use the analogy that we "work out" our bodies, to make them vital/healthy/all that they can be, physically.

We did nothing, save believing, to be "justified", and even saving faith is a "gift" from God .. Ephesians 2:8 (IOW, our justification/salvation is monergistic, a work that God does in us .. alone). But once we are justified, God enables us to work alongside of Him as He "sanctifies" us (makes us more and more like Jesus, from justification to Glory). So, it is sanctification that v12 is referring to, not justification (take note again of who Paul is speaking to in v12, (the "beloved", those who have "always obeyed" both in the Apostle's presence, and now, even more, in his absence).

God bless you!

~Deut

Does not the scriptures say that only God's sheep can hear his voice? Is not the sheep God's born again children? Can the carnal, non-spiritual, man believe in spiritual things, according to 1 Cor 2:14?

Salvation, according to Greek interpretation, means "a deliverance". Are God's children delivered from God's chastening, here on earth, when they follow his commandments? Would not this be working out your own deliverance (salvation)?

Is not there an eternal deliverance and a deliverance here on earth for God's children, as they work out their own salvation?

 

[Magpi89]

if we begin with the idea “ grace means we’re all saved and nothing applies “ then we are rejecting all the real stuff Paul taught that changes our understanding to right from wrong

working out our salvation has to do with repenting from the works of the flesh and following the spirit and bearing its fruits out salvstion that Paul was teaching is found in these types of thkngs

Hi Pilgrimshope, I think what you are trying to say is that, as Christians, we should not stop short at the point when we repented of our sins and accepted Christ into our lives. After we have received this grace, we, as genuine believers, need to bear fruits of our Salvation.

I could not agree with you more.

As Christians, after we have received this grace, we need to continue to grow in grace.

I recently came across an article that says "everyone knows theology", meaning everyone has an understanding of God. But not everyone who knows theology, possesses sound or good theology. It struck me that growth as a Christian is important, otherwise we could be practicing and imparting bad theology to others.

 

[Magpi89]

Does not the scriptures say that only God's sheep can hear his voice? Is not the sheep God's born again children? Can the carnal, non-spiritual, man believe in spiritual things, according to 1 Cor 2:14?

Salvation, according to Greek interpretation, means "a deliverance". Are God's children delivered from God's chastening, here on earth, when they follow his commandments? Would not this be working out your own deliverance (salvation)?

Is not there an eternal deliverance and a deliverance here on earth for God's children, as they work out their own salvation?

Hi ForestGreenCook,

I couldn't discern your position. Perhaps you could reply with less questions and more affirmative statements to support your viewpoint.

 

[Magpi89]

This sounds like the doctrine of original sin. I don't know if I agree with this.

Ezekiel 18:19-20
19 “Yet you ask, ‘Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?’ Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

Hi Nebuchadnezzer,

I think you are saying that you disagree with the doctrine of original sin. I would caution you to not reference Ezekiel 18:19-20 to support your view as this is a case of bad theology.


Please see the link below.
https://effectualgrace.com/2012/03/15/original-sin-and-the-misuse-of-ezekiel-1820/

 

[throughfaith]

Does not the scriptures say that only God's sheep can hear his voice? Is not the sheep God's born again children? Can the carnal, non-spiritual, man believe in spiritual things, according to 1 Cor 2:14?

Salvation, according to Greek interpretation, means "a deliverance". Are God's children delivered from God's chastening, here on earth, when they follow his commandments? Would not this be working out your own deliverance (salvation)?

Is not there an eternal deliverance and a deliverance here on earth for God's children, as they work out their own salvation?

Could you walk through the chapter in question as to why you say this ? Because I can't see this is what Paul is saying in context ?

 

[2ndTimothyGroup]

Only those who hate God does He give them over to specific sins.

Ahhh . . . my Bibles say that it was because God had an Eternal Plan . . . not because of hatred.