Women will be saved through Childbearing, if
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It has been repeated ad nausea and is still for some not true that Paul praised women who served side by side with him spreading the Gospel.
Paul recognized prophetesses, Deaconesses, Shepherds, (pastors, male and female).
What is too often ignored in the matter of the Book of Timothy, or Paul's letter , epistle, to Timothy, wherein Paul instructs women to remain quiet in church, is that the latter verses inform as to why. It isn't that they're not allowed to preach because they're women. Rather, it is because the congregations were divided into two's. Women on one side of the room, men on the other. This can be found in churches today as well. It is so that couples aren't distracted by one another, and so that single people aren't either.
The admonition to remain quiet , women to remain quiet, as Paul says in the latter verses of Timothy, is so that they don't disrupt the service with questions about what is being taught. If they have questions they should , as the passage says, wait until they're at home and can ask their husband.
Of course, who's to say he has an answer? Best to ask the shepherd leading the flock in the study, I'd think.
It's a tragedy when as Christian's we tell ourselves we are, as scripture teaches, in the world but not of the world. And yet, it is inevitable that we'll happen on one or more people, men and women , and it is always disappointing to find it to be women too, who think the world's segregation and bias toward women is espoused as God's will in the body of the Ekklesia.
Of the world and in the world, is quite a bit to overcome. But it can be done.
Maybe if people realize God chose a woman to deliver Himself to the world as Emmanuel, would help.
And then there's queen Esther. And as we said, Deborah , the judge. Miriam, Moses' older sister and a prophetess and leader. And, Jehosheba , Mary of Bethany, quite a list actually.
Paul recognized prophetesses, Deaconesses, Shepherds, (pastors, male and female).
What is too often ignored in the matter of the Book of Timothy, or Paul's letter , epistle, to Timothy, wherein Paul instructs women to remain quiet in church, is that the latter verses inform as to why. It isn't that they're not allowed to preach because they're women. Rather, it is because the congregations were divided into two's. Women on one side of the room, men on the other. This can be found in churches today as well. It is so that couples aren't distracted by one another, and so that single people aren't either.
The admonition to remain quiet , women to remain quiet, as Paul says in the latter verses of Timothy, is so that they don't disrupt the service with questions about what is being taught. If they have questions they should , as the passage says, wait until they're at home and can ask their husband.
Of course, who's to say he has an answer? Best to ask the shepherd leading the flock in the study, I'd think.
It's a tragedy when as Christian's we tell ourselves we are, as scripture teaches, in the world but not of the world. And yet, it is inevitable that we'll happen on one or more people, men and women , and it is always disappointing to find it to be women too, who think the world's segregation and bias toward women is espoused as God's will in the body of the Ekklesia.
Of the world and in the world, is quite a bit to overcome. But it can be done.
Maybe if people realize God chose a woman to deliver Himself to the world as Emmanuel, would help.
And then there's queen Esther. And as we said, Deborah , the judge. Miriam, Moses' older sister and a prophetess and leader. And, Jehosheba , Mary of Bethany, quite a list actually.
Paul's argument weren't cultural either, he always went back to creation (Genesis) to base his arguments. If you are going to counter what Paul said, you also need to go back to creation (Genesis) and tell us why you think women should teach men.
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Did Paul Have a Woman as His Pastor?
Actually, I do not need to do that.
What you need to do is actually read the epistle of 1st Corinthians chapter 14 in full. And also, it is a cultural matter when one remembers Paul was a Pharisee. He even referred to himself in present tense as a Pharisee when he was ministering the Gospel. The Synagogue services, as he well knew, were also segregated. It was a early tradition, not a cultural anomaly. Orthodox churches continue this practice, among others.
St. Augustine spoke of men being with men and the women being with women in services, as did Cyril of Jerusalem, as example.
And for those who have attended Bible college, they would then be aware of what is referred to as the, 'distigme-obelos' , when considering Paul's admonition about women in church.
**Jesus said: "But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant." Matthew 23:8-11 (NRSV) , so the idea of hierarchy due to gender is preposterous.
Actually, I do not need to do that.
What you need to do is actually read the epistle of 1st Corinthians chapter 14 in full. And also, it is a cultural matter when one remembers Paul was a Pharisee. He even referred to himself in present tense as a Pharisee when he was ministering the Gospel. The Synagogue services, as he well knew, were also segregated. It was a early tradition, not a cultural anomaly. Orthodox churches continue this practice, among others.
St. Augustine spoke of men being with men and the women being with women in services, as did Cyril of Jerusalem, as example.
And for those who have attended Bible college, they would then be aware of what is referred to as the, 'distigme-obelos' , when considering Paul's admonition about women in church.
**Jesus said: "But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant." Matthew 23:8-11 (NRSV) , so the idea of hierarchy due to gender is preposterous.
If you're saying that Paul's comments were relevant only to that culture, you have a point. However, the culture of that time and place are very relevant to understanding his comments, and completely change how the are interpreted. So, it is a "cultural" issue, but not the way you might be thinking.
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**The First Century Church & the Ministry of Women
It is helpful to have some insight into the values and customs of the first Christians, and some appreciation of how they organised their meetings and ministries, if we are to have a better understanding of the setting, context, and meaning of the New Testament letters. In this article, I provide a brief overview of church life in the first century, and I highlight the participation of women.
House Churches in the First Century
For the first two hundred years of the Christian movement, most meetings were held in homes. This custom of meeting in homes is well attested in the New Testament. Wayne Meeks observes that “In four places in the Pauline letters[1] specific congregations are designated by the phrase hē kat’ oikon (+ possessive pronoun) ekklēsia, which we may tentatively translate ‘the assembly at N’s household’.”[2] Women were involved in each of these four house churches.[3] Prisca, with Aquila, hosted and led a house church in Ephesus (1 Cor. 16:19), and later in Rome (Rom. 16:3-5). Apphia was a prominent member of a house church in Colossae, and is one of three people greeted individually in Philemon 1:1-2. Nympha hosted a church in her home in Laodicea and is greeted in Colossians 4:15.
In house churches, the public sphere (the traditional domain of men) and the more private, domestic sphere (the traditional domain of women) overlapped, and women—especially the wealthy women who hosted churches in their own homes—had equal opportunities to minister.[4]
Deborah Gill and Barbara Cavaness write:
. . . in ancient Mediterranean society, among both Jews and non-Jews, women often played quite powerful social and political leadership roles. Such roles were rooted in these women’s authority at the household level. Much business and commerce centered around households of the wealthy. These households could be sizable domestic communities including immediate family, extended family members, servants/slaves, and employees. In the ancient world, both men and women could be householders and patrons. Women’s experience as managers of these households, their “social authority, economic power, and political influence”, established their leadership in other domains in Greco-Roman society and even synagogue leadership in Jewish society.[5]
The kat’ oikon ekklēsia was “the ‘basic cell’ of the Christian movement, and its nucleus was often an existing household.”[6] At first, almost all the Christian assemblies were small, some consisting of only one or two extended households.[7] In large cities such as Rome, Corinth, and Ephesus there were several house churches with some kind of network which connected the house churches within each city together. Paul probably used the expression kat’ oikon to distinguish the individual house churches “from ‘the whole church’ (holē hē ekklēsia) which could assemble on occasion (1 Cor. 14:23; Rom. 16:23; cf. 1 Cor. 11:20).”[8] By the end of the first century, networks of churches were overseen by a minister sometimes referred to as a bishop (episkopos).[9]
Congregations would gather in homes for weekly communion suppers.[10] During these meetings, there would be a time for recitations or readings from memorised or written Old Testament scripture, or readings from letters sent from other churches or prominent Christians such as apostles or bishops. Plus there would be some kind of exhortation, the expression of worship, and the exercise of charismatic ministries.[11] How these house churches were led or organised, however, is not known with certainty, and there seems to have been variety in how ministries were exercised. Different congregations, guided by different leaders and teachers, determined their own practices and boundaries.[12]
Some house churches may have borrowed elements from synagogues services. All of the first Christians were Jewish and it is likely that in some synagogues all the members converted to Christianity. These communities would have continued with their familiar practices but modified them to encourage the Christian faith and the worship of Jesus Christ. Other assemblies may have functioned more like the many voluntary associations and trade guilds that flourished in the first century.[13]
[---]
"...Jesus had warned against a ruling kind of leadership in ministry, and he exemplified ministering as a servant. Jesus urged his disciples to follow his example and told them:
**But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. Matthew 23:8-11 (NRSV)...
Wayne Meeks observes that the number of women ministers in the Pauline movement is “nearly equal to that of men.”[17] In Romans chapter 16, twenty-nine people are mentioned. Two women—Phoebe and Prisca—head the list, and more women than men are described in terms of their ministries. Of the five named Christians in the church at Philippi, a church founded by Paul, three are women, and two are men.[18] Considering what the New Testament shows us about Pauline churches, it seems that, as a general statement, Meeks is correct: women were actively involved in churches and ventures associated with the apostle Paul in numbers that were “nearly equal to that of men”.
Many women ministers are mentioned in the New Testament and feature in most of Paul’s letters. In the post-apostolic writings, however, women ministers are mentioned much less frequently and they almost disappear. Furthermore, in some of the post-apostolic writings, women are rarely addressed directly and seem excluded from even general instructions. First Clement, a letter written by the Roman Christians to the Corinthians in around 95-97, seems to be primarily written to a male audience who are addressed several times as andres adelphoi. Women are “others.” On the other hand, the anonymous epistle of Barnabas, possibly written around the same time, is addressed to both “sons and daughters” (huioi kai thugateres) (Barn. 1:1). In Second Clement, a pseudonymous letter written in around 140-160, men and women are also addressed together. Towards the end of Second Clement this becomes explicit as both “brothers and sisters” (adelphoi kai adelphai) are implored to heed the same instructions (2 Clem. 19:1; 20:2).
Chapter 12 of Second Clement contains a profound message of gender equality and indicates that gender discrimination has no place in the body of Christ. First Clement, the Didache, and other post-apostolic writings, however, indicate that only men could be leaders in the church. The Didache (a church manual dating from the late first or early second century) speaks of leaders as priests, high priests in fact, in a “priesthood” that is restricted to men. This new priestly dynamic, that was absent in many first Christian churches, caused a growing distinction and separation between church leaders and other church members, as well as between men and women in the church.[19]
Conclusion
Church life in the first century was quite unlike church life today. We need to remember this when we read the New Testament letters and be careful to not read back into the text our modern understandings of ministry and Sunday services. There is one thing we share in common with the early Christians, though: their views on women in ministry, as in today’s church, were not uniform. Tragically, in the following centuries, the attitudes towards women in ministry became unjustly restrictive, and these attitudes were turned into church rules.[20] In some churches today these unwarranted restrictions continue. "
Full Article
It is helpful to have some insight into the values and customs of the first Christians, and some appreciation of how they organised their meetings and ministries, if we are to have a better understanding of the setting, context, and meaning of the New Testament letters. In this article, I provide a brief overview of church life in the first century, and I highlight the participation of women.
House Churches in the First Century
For the first two hundred years of the Christian movement, most meetings were held in homes. This custom of meeting in homes is well attested in the New Testament. Wayne Meeks observes that “In four places in the Pauline letters[1] specific congregations are designated by the phrase hē kat’ oikon (+ possessive pronoun) ekklēsia, which we may tentatively translate ‘the assembly at N’s household’.”[2] Women were involved in each of these four house churches.[3] Prisca, with Aquila, hosted and led a house church in Ephesus (1 Cor. 16:19), and later in Rome (Rom. 16:3-5). Apphia was a prominent member of a house church in Colossae, and is one of three people greeted individually in Philemon 1:1-2. Nympha hosted a church in her home in Laodicea and is greeted in Colossians 4:15.
In house churches, the public sphere (the traditional domain of men) and the more private, domestic sphere (the traditional domain of women) overlapped, and women—especially the wealthy women who hosted churches in their own homes—had equal opportunities to minister.[4]
Deborah Gill and Barbara Cavaness write:
. . . in ancient Mediterranean society, among both Jews and non-Jews, women often played quite powerful social and political leadership roles. Such roles were rooted in these women’s authority at the household level. Much business and commerce centered around households of the wealthy. These households could be sizable domestic communities including immediate family, extended family members, servants/slaves, and employees. In the ancient world, both men and women could be householders and patrons. Women’s experience as managers of these households, their “social authority, economic power, and political influence”, established their leadership in other domains in Greco-Roman society and even synagogue leadership in Jewish society.[5]
The kat’ oikon ekklēsia was “the ‘basic cell’ of the Christian movement, and its nucleus was often an existing household.”[6] At first, almost all the Christian assemblies were small, some consisting of only one or two extended households.[7] In large cities such as Rome, Corinth, and Ephesus there were several house churches with some kind of network which connected the house churches within each city together. Paul probably used the expression kat’ oikon to distinguish the individual house churches “from ‘the whole church’ (holē hē ekklēsia) which could assemble on occasion (1 Cor. 14:23; Rom. 16:23; cf. 1 Cor. 11:20).”[8] By the end of the first century, networks of churches were overseen by a minister sometimes referred to as a bishop (episkopos).[9]
Congregations would gather in homes for weekly communion suppers.[10] During these meetings, there would be a time for recitations or readings from memorised or written Old Testament scripture, or readings from letters sent from other churches or prominent Christians such as apostles or bishops. Plus there would be some kind of exhortation, the expression of worship, and the exercise of charismatic ministries.[11] How these house churches were led or organised, however, is not known with certainty, and there seems to have been variety in how ministries were exercised. Different congregations, guided by different leaders and teachers, determined their own practices and boundaries.[12]
Some house churches may have borrowed elements from synagogues services. All of the first Christians were Jewish and it is likely that in some synagogues all the members converted to Christianity. These communities would have continued with their familiar practices but modified them to encourage the Christian faith and the worship of Jesus Christ. Other assemblies may have functioned more like the many voluntary associations and trade guilds that flourished in the first century.[13]
[---]
"...Jesus had warned against a ruling kind of leadership in ministry, and he exemplified ministering as a servant. Jesus urged his disciples to follow his example and told them:
**But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all students. And call no one your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven. Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Messiah. The greatest among you will be your servant. Matthew 23:8-11 (NRSV)...
[---]
"...Women Ministers in the First-Century Church
Wayne Meeks observes that the number of women ministers in the Pauline movement is “nearly equal to that of men.”[17] In Romans chapter 16, twenty-nine people are mentioned. Two women—Phoebe and Prisca—head the list, and more women than men are described in terms of their ministries. Of the five named Christians in the church at Philippi, a church founded by Paul, three are women, and two are men.[18] Considering what the New Testament shows us about Pauline churches, it seems that, as a general statement, Meeks is correct: women were actively involved in churches and ventures associated with the apostle Paul in numbers that were “nearly equal to that of men”.
Many women ministers are mentioned in the New Testament and feature in most of Paul’s letters. In the post-apostolic writings, however, women ministers are mentioned much less frequently and they almost disappear. Furthermore, in some of the post-apostolic writings, women are rarely addressed directly and seem excluded from even general instructions. First Clement, a letter written by the Roman Christians to the Corinthians in around 95-97, seems to be primarily written to a male audience who are addressed several times as andres adelphoi. Women are “others.” On the other hand, the anonymous epistle of Barnabas, possibly written around the same time, is addressed to both “sons and daughters” (huioi kai thugateres) (Barn. 1:1). In Second Clement, a pseudonymous letter written in around 140-160, men and women are also addressed together. Towards the end of Second Clement this becomes explicit as both “brothers and sisters” (adelphoi kai adelphai) are implored to heed the same instructions (2 Clem. 19:1; 20:2).
Chapter 12 of Second Clement contains a profound message of gender equality and indicates that gender discrimination has no place in the body of Christ. First Clement, the Didache, and other post-apostolic writings, however, indicate that only men could be leaders in the church. The Didache (a church manual dating from the late first or early second century) speaks of leaders as priests, high priests in fact, in a “priesthood” that is restricted to men. This new priestly dynamic, that was absent in many first Christian churches, caused a growing distinction and separation between church leaders and other church members, as well as between men and women in the church.[19]
Conclusion
Church life in the first century was quite unlike church life today. We need to remember this when we read the New Testament letters and be careful to not read back into the text our modern understandings of ministry and Sunday services. There is one thing we share in common with the early Christians, though: their views on women in ministry, as in today’s church, were not uniform. Tragically, in the following centuries, the attitudes towards women in ministry became unjustly restrictive, and these attitudes were turned into church rules.[20] In some churches today these unwarranted restrictions continue. "
Full Article
Not at all.
1. "..All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work"
NOT
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in cultural practices.
2. Every time Paul talked on this issue, he reminded us about the creation sequence and what happened in the beginning (Genesis), if you are going to expound on what Paul said, you also need to go back to Genesis and tell us why you think women should teach men.
1. "..All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be complete, fully equipped for every good work"
NOT
All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in cultural practices.
2. Every time Paul talked on this issue, he reminded us about the creation sequence and what happened in the beginning (Genesis), if you are going to expound on what Paul said, you also need to go back to Genesis and tell us why you think women should teach men.
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No, actually, since you repeat that claim often, you need to prove that "every time Paul talked on this issue, he reminded us about the creation sequence and what happened in the beginning...."
Your gender bias is not scriptural. Perhaps you should set aside your prejudiced opinion against women when it is not divinely inspired, and instead seek to realize you're talking out of both sides of the issue when you invoke Paul as supporting your prejudice, while you ignore entirely the fact that Paul stated there is no partiality in genders, no separation due to our sex, in the Ekklesia.
Your gender bias is not scriptural. Perhaps you should set aside your prejudiced opinion against women when it is not divinely inspired, and instead seek to realize you're talking out of both sides of the issue when you invoke Paul as supporting your prejudice, while you ignore entirely the fact that Paul stated there is no partiality in genders, no separation due to our sex, in the Ekklesia.
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And it should be added there also that God is no respecter of persons nor shows partiality + the Book of Book of Romans chapter 2.
Therefore, to argue repeatedly that God would not call a woman into an office of service in the Ekklesia, be they Shepherdess, (pastor/minister), prophetess, deacon, bishop, is to speak contrary to what God has already said on the matter. He shows no partiality.
Therefore, to argue repeatedly that God would not call a woman into an office of service in the Ekklesia, be they Shepherdess, (pastor/minister), prophetess, deacon, bishop, is to speak contrary to what God has already said on the matter. He shows no partiality.
Christianity Today
Harry Farley Thu 21 Sep 2017
Apostle Paul never said 'women should remain silent': scholars claim controversial passage was added later
Harry Farley Thu 21 Sep 2017
Apostle Paul never said 'women should remain silent': scholars claim controversial passage was added later
1 Tim 2:11A womana must learn in quietness and full submissiveness. 12I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man;b she is to remain quiet. 13For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression.
1 Cor 11:
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for it is just as if her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off. And if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason a woman ought to have a sign of authority ona her head, because of the angels.
Eph 5:
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.
28In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. 30For we are members of His body.b
31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c 32This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.
Gen 2:
23And the man said:
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for out of man she was taken.”
24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
So, Paul uses Genesis/creation to argue the authority of the man over a woman/wife but you want to use St. Augustine and Cyril and culture to argue against scripture. You are not going to make it.
You have to use Genesis/creation also to show us why your argument is correct.
1 Cor 11:
3But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of the woman is man, and the head of Christ is God.
4Every man who prays or prophesies with his head covered dishonors his head. 5And every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for it is just as if her head were shaved. 6If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off. And if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head.
7A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man did not come from woman, but woman from man. 9Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man. 10For this reason a woman ought to have a sign of authority ona her head, because of the angels.
Eph 5:
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her 26to sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to Himself as a glorious church, without stain or wrinkle or any such blemish, but holy and blameless.
28In the same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29Indeed, no one ever hated his own body, but he nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ does the church. 30For we are members of His body.b
31“For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”c 32This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.
Gen 2:
23And the man said:
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman,’
for out of man she was taken.”
24For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
So, Paul uses Genesis/creation to argue the authority of the man over a woman/wife but you want to use St. Augustine and Cyril and culture to argue against scripture. You are not going to make it.
You have to use Genesis/creation also to show us why your argument is correct.
You interpreted my point exactly backwards.
I am not saying that Paul's words are about cultural practices of the time, and therefore they are irrelevant to us, which is clearly what you think I'm saying.
Rather, I'm saying that understanding the culture of Timothy's Ephesus is critical to understanding Paul's words to him. If the reader divorces Paul's words from their cultural context, they will inevitably conclude that Paul is using an argument from creation to justify the prohibition on women teaching men.
I am not saying that Paul's words are about cultural practices of the time, and therefore they are irrelevant to us, which is clearly what you think I'm saying.
Rather, I'm saying that understanding the culture of Timothy's Ephesus is critical to understanding Paul's words to him. If the reader divorces Paul's words from their cultural context, they will inevitably conclude that Paul is using an argument from creation to justify the prohibition on women teaching men.
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God's purpose for the woman was to be the man's helper (actually strong ally and lifesaver). I'm not saying women don't perform other roles, but the purpose of a woman is her husband.
You are talking worldly power, and I am talking Godly power. I believe in God's eyes, a pastor has more responsibility than a Supreme Court Justice, as a pastor presides over God's church, a Supreme Court Justice only after the affairs of men.
Yes, worldly power and Godly power. Fear not those who kill the body, but cannot harm the soul. Rather, fear He who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
Worldly power. And she was French.
Please post some examples of female elders. A pastor is essentially a teaching elder.
Only silent in church, not in spreading the gospel!
If the words were only intended for a congregation, Paul wouldn't have referenced back to two universal truths - man was created first, and Eve was deceived.
You are talking worldly power, and I am talking Godly power. I believe in God's eyes, a pastor has more responsibility than a Supreme Court Justice, as a pastor presides over God's church, a Supreme Court Justice only after the affairs of men.
Yes, worldly power and Godly power. Fear not those who kill the body, but cannot harm the soul. Rather, fear He who can destroy both body and soul in hell.
Worldly power. And she was French.
Please post some examples of female elders. A pastor is essentially a teaching elder.
Only silent in church, not in spreading the gospel!
If the words were only intended for a congregation, Paul wouldn't have referenced back to two universal truths - man was created first, and Eve was deceived.
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I think you are not understanding the significance of what is being said. God says that certain roles are prohibited for a woman. A woman (e.g. female pastor) claims that God has called her to that position. Then logically, 1 of the following must be true:
1) God didn't say that the role of pastor was prohibited for women
2) God did say that the role of pastor was prohibited for women, but then changed His mind
3) God did say that the role of pastor was prohibited for women, and the woman is mistaken (either she is a deceiver and is lying, as no-one called her, or she is deceived, as another spirit called her)
We argue against 1, based on the divine inspiration of scripture. If you throw out any, you must throw out all.
We argue against 2, as God does not change His mind, and He has given no revelation in His word that the prohibition on women pastors is removed.
The only choice we can accept is 3, that women pastors are either deceived (consistent with scripture), or active deceivers. Evidence that 3 is correct can be seen in all women pastors I have read about.
1) God didn't say that the role of pastor was prohibited for women
2) God did say that the role of pastor was prohibited for women, but then changed His mind
3) God did say that the role of pastor was prohibited for women, and the woman is mistaken (either she is a deceiver and is lying, as no-one called her, or she is deceived, as another spirit called her)
We argue against 1, based on the divine inspiration of scripture. If you throw out any, you must throw out all.
We argue against 2, as God does not change His mind, and He has given no revelation in His word that the prohibition on women pastors is removed.
The only choice we can accept is 3, that women pastors are either deceived (consistent with scripture), or active deceivers. Evidence that 3 is correct can be seen in all women pastors I have read about.
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So an unmarried woman has no purpose? Your position breaks down if it doesn't account for every possibility.
Why does prior creation of Adam preclude women from teaching men today? Please don't answer with any variation of "Because God said so." Rather, think about it, and if you can come up with a reasonable and logical explanation, please share it.
Why does prior creation of Adam preclude women from teaching men today? Please don't answer with any variation of "Because God said so." Rather, think about it, and if you can come up with a reasonable and logical explanation, please share it.
It has been repeated ad nausea and is still for some not true that Paul praised women who served side by side with him spreading the Gospel.
Paul recognized prophetesses, Deaconesses, Shepherds, (pastors, male and female).
What is too often ignored in the matter of the Book of Timothy, or Paul's letter , epistle, to Timothy, wherein Paul instructs women to remain quiet in church, is that the latter verses inform as to why. It isn't that they're not allowed to preach because they're women. Rather, it is because the congregations were divided into two's. Women on one side of the room, men on the other. This can be found in churches today as well. It is so that couples aren't distracted by one another, and so that single people aren't either.
The admonition to remain quiet , women to remain quiet, as Paul says in the latter verses of Timothy, is so that they don't disrupt the service with questions about what is being taught. If they have questions they should , as the passage says, wait until they're at home and can ask their husband.
Of course, who's to say he has an answer? Best to ask the shepherd leading the flock in the study, I'd think.
It's a tragedy when as Christian's we tell ourselves we are, as scripture teaches, in the world but not of the world. And yet, it is inevitable that we'll happen on one or more people, men and women , and it is always disappointing to find it to be women too, who think the world's segregation and bias toward women is espoused as God's will in the body of the Ekklesia.
Of the world and in the world, is quite a bit to overcome. But it can be done.
Maybe if people realize God chose a woman to deliver Himself to the world as Emmanuel, would help.
And then there's queen Esther. And as we said, Deborah , the judge. Miriam, Moses' older sister and a prophetess and leader. And, Jehosheba , Mary of Bethany, quite a list actually.
Paul recognized prophetesses, Deaconesses, Shepherds, (pastors, male and female).
What is too often ignored in the matter of the Book of Timothy, or Paul's letter , epistle, to Timothy, wherein Paul instructs women to remain quiet in church, is that the latter verses inform as to why. It isn't that they're not allowed to preach because they're women. Rather, it is because the congregations were divided into two's. Women on one side of the room, men on the other. This can be found in churches today as well. It is so that couples aren't distracted by one another, and so that single people aren't either.
The admonition to remain quiet , women to remain quiet, as Paul says in the latter verses of Timothy, is so that they don't disrupt the service with questions about what is being taught. If they have questions they should , as the passage says, wait until they're at home and can ask their husband.
Of course, who's to say he has an answer? Best to ask the shepherd leading the flock in the study, I'd think.
It's a tragedy when as Christian's we tell ourselves we are, as scripture teaches, in the world but not of the world. And yet, it is inevitable that we'll happen on one or more people, men and women , and it is always disappointing to find it to be women too, who think the world's segregation and bias toward women is espoused as God's will in the body of the Ekklesia.
Of the world and in the world, is quite a bit to overcome. But it can be done.
Maybe if people realize God chose a woman to deliver Himself to the world as Emmanuel, would help.
And then there's queen Esther. And as we said, Deborah , the judge. Miriam, Moses' older sister and a prophetess and leader. And, Jehosheba , Mary of Bethany, quite a list actually.
I would agree God puts no difference in gender when it comes to Teaching. The gift of teaching must be defined. Men and woman can plant the seed and water it with the word of God. But the Holy Spirit does not share His infallibility with us. We can teach how to hear sharing the hermeneutics principles needed to hear Him but he must do the work as the one and only Master. No man can serve two Masters, the corrupted flesh and the Holy Spirit.
He does the teaching comforting and he who lives in us brings to our memory the things he has taught . In that way his name is Jealous and will not share that glory with the creature as that called a Daysman . A Daysman is a fleshly infallible umpire set between God not seen and man seen. Like the Pope. Even Jesus would not stand in that Holy Place when called Good Master .When accused of being a daysman (Good Master) he replied. . . One is Good, eternal God not seen . Call no man on earth Teacher and in the same way call no man on earth father. .
We are warned of the anti christs(many) they say a man must teach us. It reveals the motive of operation for the antichrists the many who were already there.
‘Rabbi, Rabbi.’ But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. Mathew 23: 8-10
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.Mathew 19: 16-17
These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 John 2:26-27
I would say what God calls "one" let no man separate . The result of the garden. Put a wedge between man and woman .The gospel that which unites
I would say the same as a unmarried man. The pastoral work is a family affair. A threefold cord is not quickly broken. Where two or three gather together in his name. He is there working with them to both will and do His good pleasure.
1 Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
Ecclesiastes 4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
1 Timothy 3:4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
Ecclesiastes 4:12 And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a threefold cord is not quickly broken.
The Jezebel spirit in you is strong. You need to repent.
https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...swers/who-is-jezebel-in-revelation-2-verse-20
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