Why Some Arminians and Calvinists Need to Calm Down

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
It does not say when they had been appointed to aeonous life. Could it have been the ones who had believed the gospel in Acts 13:43 and Paul told to continue in the grace of God?

It does NOT say---?

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Ver. 48. Glorified in the word] That is, received it into their hearts (as some copies read this text, εδεξαντο), suffering it to indwell richly in them (as becometh such a guest), Col_3:16; yea, to rule and bear sway, yielding thereunto the obedience of faith, which is the greatest honour that can be done to the word; as the contrary is, to despise prophesying, 1Th_5:19, to cast God’s word behind our backs, Psa_50:17, to trample on it; which the very Jews and Turks are so far from, that they carefully take up any paper that lieth on the ground, lest it should be any part of the Scripture, or have the name of God written in it. (Paraeus, Proleg. in Gen.)

Nothing you posted there shows from the context of Acts 13:48 when the hearers had been appointed to aeonous life. I have given a contextual reason for placing the time they were appointed at the previous sabbath when they had believed Paul and he told them to continue in the grace of God 13:43.
You have not given from the context what the Word of God was that the hearers heard and glorified and believed. I have pointed out from the context what the word of God was. Paul recites it to them in the immediately previous verse. We don't have to guess what that Word of God was. Luke records it for us. Acts 13:46-48
"It was necessary that the Word of God should first be spoken to you, Since you thrust it from you and judge yourselves (or we could say appoint yourselves) unworthy of aeonous life, WE TURN TO THE GENTILES, FOR SO THE LORD HAS COMMANDED US SAYING, "I HAVE SET YOU TO BE A LIGHT TO THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE UTTERMOST PARTS OF THE EARTH."
And when the Gentiles heard THIS, they were glad and glorified THE WORD OF GOD, and as many as had been ordained to aeonous life (or had appointed themselves to aeonous life) believed.
It doesn't specifically say what the word of God was that they believed. The nearest contextual antecedent that it could be is the declaration of Paul in all caps. They heard THIS, they glorified THIS and they believed THIS.

You simply eisegete determinist ideas into the text that are nowhere evident in the text or context, and think that doing so turns the text into a determinist proof text.

 

[PaulThomson]

And as many as were ordained [ tetagmenoi (G5021), or 'appointed,'] to eternal life believed. A very remarkable statement, which cannot, without force, be interpreted of anything lower than this-that a divine ordination to eternal life is the cause, not the effect, of any man's believing. Grotius (and after him many others, as Humphry) plead ingeniously for a middle sense of the verb, and translate thus: 'As many as disposed (or 'addicted') themselves to eternal life'-referring to 1Co_16:15. But this, besides having very much of a strained appearance, is vapid, and almost tautological. In favour of the King James Version are such critics as Bengel, Olshausen, Meyer, DeWette, Winer, Alford, Hackett, Webster and Wilkinson. 'In the words, "as many as were ordained to eternal life," we must reckon (says Olshausen, himself a Lutheran) the idea which pervades the whole Scriptures of a predestination of saints. The attempts which have been, made to evade it are in the highest degree forced.'

Given that the immediate context says the Jews had judged themselves unworthy of aeonous life by their rude obstinacy against the preaching of it, it is not at all strained to consider that the context also says that the Gentiles who open-mindedly considered the preaching of it and had believed the message had appointed themselves to aeonous life. Determinist hand-waving and dismissive language is not a reasoned argument against tetagmenoi being a perfect middle participle.

 

[PaulThomson]

PaulThomson said:
John 6:44 says the Father draws people to Jesus. It does not mention the Holy Spirit.
John 6:65 says that the Father grants for people to come to Jesus. It does not mention the Holy Spirit either. Why are you citing these scriptures as proof texts for something they say nothing about?

4 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ver. 44. No man can come to me, except, &c.] Down then goes the Dagon of free will, with all that vitreum acumen glass point of all the patrons thereof; whether Pagans or Papagans, Pelagians or Semi-pelagians. Let them say never so much Ignavis opus est auxilio divino; Quod vivimus Deorum munus est; quod bene sancteque vivimus, nostrum. Lazy work is with the help of God; we live because the service is of the gods; we live because it is well consecrated of us. (Sen.) A wiser than the wisest of them tells us here another tale; and elsewhere, Joh_15:5; "Without me ye can do nothing." Where Austin observes that our Saviour saith not perficere, to finish, but facere; to do; nor doth he say, Without me ye can do no hard thing, but nothing. And the same church father notes that sub laudibus naturae latent inimiei gratiae. The friends of free will are enemies to free grace.

God the Father draw him] By a merciful violence, ex nolentibus volentes facit. {See Trapp on "Son_1:4"} The Father draweth, and the man cometh; that notes the efficacy of grace, and this the sweetness of grace. Grace works strongly, and therefore God is said to draw; and it works sweetly too, and therefore man is said to come.
Trapp.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
No man can come to me (in the sense of Joh_6:35), except the Father which hath sent me - that is, except the Father as the Sender of Me, and to carry out the design of My mission.
Draw him - by an internal and efficacious operation; though by all the means of rational conviction, and in a way altogether consonant to their moral nature. (Son_1:4; Jer_31:3; Hos_11:3-4.)
And I will raise him up at the last day. See the note at Joh_6:54. Thus this weighty statement mounts to the following: 'Be not either startled or stumbled at these sayings; because it needs divine teaching to understand them, divine drawing to submit to them.'
JFB.

Joh_6:44. Οὐδείς, no man) Jesus is wont, before that He removes error out of minds, to convict the perverse disposition itself of those who so err. This is His aim, Joh_6:44-46 : and at the same time, after having passed without notice that which was unseasonable in the interruption on the part of the Jews, and having stilled their murmuring Joh_6:43, He in continuation discusses those very truths, which He spake at Joh_6:40. Nor, however, does He omit to confirm His descent from heaven: He only does not reply to the question, How?—οὐδεὶς δύναται, no man can) The Jews were relying on their own powers: this Jesus refutes, and teaches them of the need of observing the drawing of the Father.—ἐλθεῖν πρός με, come to Me) To come to Christ, is, by faith to attain to and recognise His heavenly mission, and to commit one’s self to Him.—ἐὰν μή, unless [except]) He therefore doeth aright who cometh to Me, saith Jesus: for by the very fact of coming, He is following the drawing of the Father.—ἑλκύσῃ, shall have drawn) The Father hath sent the Son to us; and draws us to the Son, by the power of His love making us hear and see. See following ver., “Every man that hath heard and learned of the Father, cometh unto Me;” and 65, “No man can come unto Me, except it were given him of My Father.” [It is one and the same thing, the expression which is used, to give us to the Son, or to give to us (grace) that we may come to the Son, Joh_6:39, “All which He hath given Me.”—V. g.] An instance of such a drawing is given in the case of Peter, Joh_6:68, “Lord, to whom shall we go? Thou hast the words of eternal life:” in the case of Paul, Gal_1:15, “It pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by His grace.” The same word occurs in the Septuag., Son_1:4, εἵλκυσάν σε, [Engl. Vers.] “Draw me, we will run after Thee;” Jer_31:3, “I have loved thee with an everlasting love, therefore with loving-kindness have I drawn thee” [in Septuag. ch. 38:3, εἵλκυσά σε εἰς οἰκτείρημα].


You work out your salvation-don't "work" on mine

You typed a lot of words to set up a smoke screen to hide the fact that you cannot show where John is saying things about the Holy Spirit in John 6 that you claimed were being predicated of the Holy Spirit in John 6. Can you admit John 6 does not say of the Holy Spirit what you claimed it does?

 

[Johann]

PaulThomson said:
It does not say when they had been appointed to aeonous life. Could it have been the ones who had believed the gospel in Acts 13:43 and Paul told to continue in the grace of God?



Nothing you posted there shows from the context of Acts 13:48 when the hearers had been appointed to aeonous life. I have given a contextual reason for placing the time they were appointed at the previous sabbath when they had believed Paul and he told them to continue in the grace of God 13:43.
You have not given from the context what the Word of God was that the hearers heard and glorified and believed. I have pointed out from the context what the word of God was. Paul recites it to them in the immediately previous verse. We don't have to guess what that Word of God was. Luke records it for us. Acts 13:46-48
"It was necessary that the Word of God should first be spoken to you, Since you thrust it from you and judge yourselves (or we could say appoint yourselves) unworthy of aeonous life, WE TURN TO THE GENTILES, FOR SO THE LORD HAS COMMANDED US SAYING, "I HAVE SET YOU TO BE A LIGHT TO THE GENTILES, THAT YOU MAY BRING SALVATION TO THE UTTERMOST PARTS OF THE EARTH."
And when the Gentiles heard THIS, they were glad and glorified THE WORD OF GOD, and as many as had been ordained to aeonous life (or had appointed themselves to aeonous life) believed.
It doesn't specifically say what the word of God was that they believed. The nearest contextual antecedent that it could be is the declaration of Paul in all caps. They heard THIS, they glorified THIS and they believed THIS.

You simply eisegete determinist ideas into the text that are nowhere evident in the text or context, and think that doing so turns the text into a determinist proof text.

The one doing exegesis and playing with a sleight of hand is you-no offense.

As many as were ordained, &c.] Election therefore is the fountain, whence faith floweth; men are not elected of faith foreseen, and because they believe, as the Arminians would have it.

(3) It does not properly refer to an eternal decree, or directly to the doctrine of election - though that may be inferred from it; but it refers to their being then in fact disposed to embrace eternal life. They were then inclined by an influence from without themselves, or so disposed as to embrace eternal life. That this was done by the influence of the Holy Spirit is clear from all parts of the New Testament, Tit_3:5-6; Joh_1:13. It was not a disposition or arrangement originating with themselves, but with God.
(4) This implies the doctrine of election. It was, in fact, that doctrine expressed in an act. It was nothing but God’s disposing them to embrace eternal life. And that he does this according to a plan in his own mind a plan which is unchangeable as he himself is unchangeable is clear from the Scriptures. Compare Act_18:10; Rom_8:28-30; Rom_9:15-16, Rom_9:21, Rom_9:23; Eph_1:4-5, Eph_1:11. The meaning may be expressed in few words - who were then disposed, and in good earnest determined, to embrace eternal life, by the operation of the grace of God upon their hearts.

Not because Israel rejected the message (Rom. 11:18) but because the gospel was for them
as well. as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. Only those whom God has sovereignly
appointed to salvation will believe the gospel (1 Thess. 1:4–5; 2 Thess. 2:13–14).

4) "Believed." (episteusan) "They believed," trusted, or were saved, when they believed, after the word was preached, Mar_1:15; Act_16:31; Rom_1:15-16. This passage emphatically indicates that as many as had been "inclined, disposed, or deeply convicted with reference to" (Gk. eis) eternal life, believed. It does not indicate that these "as many as" were "prefixed," "predestined" or "pre- regenerated" in eternity, believed on that day as some erroneously teach. It indicates and affirms that only such as were convicted by the Holy Spirit that accompanied the apostles' preaching that day were convicted and believed "that day" unto eternal life, 1Jn_5:13.

The above could be an option-right? Arminian worldview-


1Th 1:2 We give thanks to God always for all of you, constantly mentioning you in our prayers,
1Th 1:3 remembering before our God and Father your work of faith and labor of love and steadfastness of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,
1Th 1:5 because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

1Th 2:13 And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
1Th 2:14 For you, brothers, became imitators of the churches of God in Christ Jesus that are in Judea. For you suffered the same things from your own countrymen as they did from the Jews,



13:48 "When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord" Many of these had been in the synagogue for years and had never heard the inclusive, universal message of God's love and acceptance of all humanity by faith in Messiah. When they heard it they enthusiastically received it (cf. Acts 28:28) and passed it on to others (cf. Acts 13:49).
"as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed" This is a clear statement of predestination (so common in the rabbis' and Intertestamental Jewish literature), but it is in the same ambiguous relationship as all NT passages that relate to the paradox of God's choice and human's free will (cf. Phil. 2:12, 13). It is a pluperfect passive periphrastic that comes from a military term (tassô) which means to "enroll" or "appoint."

This concept of enrolling refers to the two metaphorical books that God keeps (cf. Dan. 7:10; Rev. 20:12). First is the Book of the Deeds of men (cf. Ps. 56:8; 139:16; Isa. 65:6; and Mal. 3:16). The other is the Book of Life (cf. Exod. 32:32; Ps. 69:28; Isa. 4:3; Dan. 12:1; Luke 10:20; Phil. 4:3; Heb. 12:23; Rev. 3:5; 13:8; 17:8; 20:12-15; 21:27).

Since you hounded me relentlessly while I was sleeping-my finger is on the ignore button.

 

[Johann]

Given that the immediate context says the Jews had judged themselves unworthy of aeonous life by their rude obstinacy against the preaching of it, it is not at all strained to consider that the context also says that the Gentiles who open-mindedly considered the preaching of it and had believed the message had appointed themselves to aeonous life. Determinist hand-waving and dismissive language is not a reasoned argument against tetagmenoi being a perfect middle participle.

Explain what a Perfect Middle Participle means @PaulThomson-in this text.

As many as were ordained to eternal life (hosoi ēsan tetagmenoi eis zōēn aiōnion). Periphrastic past perfect passive indicative of tassō, a military term to place in orderly arrangement. The word “ordain” is not the best translation here. “Appointed,” as Hackett shows, is better. The Jews here had voluntarily rejected the word of God. On the other side were those Gentiles who gladly accepted what the Jews had rejected, not all the Gentiles. Why these Gentiles here ranged themselves on God’s side as opposed to the Jews Luke does not tell us. This verse does not solve the vexed problem of divine sovereignty and human free agency. There is no evidence that Luke had in mind an absolutum decretum of personal salvation. Paul had shown that God’s plan extended to and included Gentiles. Certainly the Spirit of God does move upon the human heart to which some respond, as here, while others push him away.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Am I the only one here who believes that both Election and Free Will Christians exist?

What exactly does that mean? Those who believe what the Bible actually says know that election is not for salvation. And that free will was never nullified. So free will, election, and predestination are all biblical truths, which need to be "rightly divided".

 

[selahsays]

Those who believe what the Bible actually says know that election is not for salvation.

Please show me a scripture that says this. Thanks.

 

[Johann]

Please show me a scripture that says this. Thanks.

He doesn't know what he is talking about-pontificate.


Ephesians 1:4-5: "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"

Romans 9:11-18: "For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls"

Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed"

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation"

2 Timothy 1:9: "God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity"

Election and salvation-indissolubly one.

 

[selahsays]

He doesn't know what he is talking about-pontificate.


Ephesians 1:4-5: "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"

Romans 9:11-18: "For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls"

Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed"

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation"

2 Timothy 1:9: "God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity"

Election and salvation-indissolubly one.

Amen and thank you. I’ll go ahead and post a few more scriptures that speak about the Elect from the great book of Ephesians.

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.

- Ephesians 1:4-12 (KJV)

 

[Nehemiah6]

Please show me a scripture that says this. Thanks.

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

Now does that Scripture say "he did predestinate for salvation" (or Justification)? "To be conformed to the image of His Son" means to be transformed into the likeness and perfection of Christ. And that is for those who are ALREADY SAVED by grace through faith. The perfection will come when the saints are glorified (see the next verse).

It is impossible for God to elect anyone for salvation. Why? Christ has given us the answer: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

1. "Whosoever believeth" means anyone and everyone -- without exception -- who hears the Gospel and believes. God is no respecter of person, says the Word of God.

2. "That the world might be saved" means exactly that. "The world" is all the inhabitants of the world, i.e. the human race. Check out Strong's Concordance or Thayer's Greek Lexicon. So would God and Christ turn around and contradict themselves, after telling us that God will have ALL MEN to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth, because He is not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance? You will find those statements in the Bible.

 

[Nehemiah6]

When someone puts a thumbs down on Bible truth, they would rather stick with the doctrines of men.

 

[selahsays]

When someone puts a thumbs down on Bible truth, they would rather stick with the doctrines of men.

I give a thumbs down when someone has no understanding of Bible truth.

 

[John146]

Why Some Arminians and Calvinists Need to Calm Down
Theology
Mar 19
Written By Nate Sala
healthy-dispute-management.jpg
I’ll be honest. Wading into the murky quagmire that is the debate between Arminians and Calvinists is about as exciting to me as getting my wisdom teeth pulled. Oftentimes I find the disagreement to be less than gracious. Other times I find it to be vicious, condescending, and outright silly. Case in point: A recent blog caught my eye that tried to argue against Calvinism because, get this, Calvinists are big, dumb jerks! Just look at that Mark Driscoll guy! So did you catch that line of reasoning? Calvinists are rude therefore Calvinism is false. Well that’s a tasty sandwich topped with ad hominems, isn’t it? Another one argued against Arminianism by describing it as Pelagianism in different clothes (but forgetting to mention that the two are distinctly different). One particular forum even tried to say that Calvinists are secretly Pelagians. What?! Oh, and let’s not forget the old handy dandy “you guys aren’t real Christians” tripe.

Look, I’m not one who thumbs his nose from the sidelines while refusing to get his theological hands dirty. I hold a particular view on this issue (and have no problem sharing it when appropriate). But there is something that I think a lot of us have forgotten. The ongoing saga of Arminianism vs. Calvinism has been around for so long because Scripture appears to support both views. Just talk to a Calvinist or an Arminian. They can probably open their Bible and point you exactly where you need to go. Let’s face it: Arminians are just as confident waving around John 3 as Calvinists are whipping out Ephesians 1. Thing is, no one knows with a 100% certainty whether his view is correct. By the way I say “his” because I hardly see any women blowing a gasket over this issue.

So, fellow brothers in Christ, please help the rest of us, and yourselves, and this centuries-old debate by taking a deep breath and calming down. Since the goal of discussing this issue should be to get someone to consider your viewpoint fairly, then try to remember these simple tips:

#1 Don’t Be Obnoxious

Stop resorting to hyperbolic rhetoric to further your point. I mean it. If you don’t, I’m going to jam a million tooth picks through my earhole and into my brain until the part of me that recognizes hyperbole disappears. By the way, writing hyperbolically is not making an argument. It’s just writing hyperbolically. Perhaps that style of communicating is persuasive to some people but, for those of us who know better, it just looks childish. And the numerous exclamation points after sentences you want to emphasize!!!!!!!!! And the way your finger often slips off the shift key so that your seven exclamation points also now include the number one in the middle (!!!1!!!!) looks really sloppy. Also, incessantly italicizing words or phrases or typing in ALL CAPS TO REALLY EMPHASIZE YOUR POINT is not making an argument either. It just looks like you’re impulsive and probably screaming. In other words, if it takes all of these silly grammatical devices to make your point, then your argument (if it even exists at all) is likely weaker than the plot of Die Hard 5.

#2 Don’t Name-call

Calling your opponent a fake Christian if he disagrees with your viewpoint is never useful. It simply showcases the obvious insecurity in your own argument. That is, your argument should stand or fall on its own merits, not whether you’ve successfully intimidated your opposition through name-calling. Also, someone can just call you a fake Christian right back and now you’re stuck in a statistical dead heat in the first round. At the end of the day Arminians and Calvinists still believe in Jesus and His redemptive work on the cross. So, yes, people can actually disagree with you on this issue and still love the Lord. Trying to take away their salvation unless they think like you is almost as ridiculous as young-earthers suggesting that old-earthers are not real Christians. No, wait. That’s equally as ridiculous.

#3 Don’t Mischaracterize

Stop, stop, stop mischaracterizing your opponent’s point of view. Calvinists, stop telling people that Arminians deny God’s grace. Arminians, stop telling people that Calvinists believe everyone is a robot. I read a pro-Arminian post recently that went something like this: Calvinism is a false gospel that offers no eternal life or salvation by the Holy Spirit. Dear Arminian who decided that was actually worth writing down, perhaps you genuinely misunderstand your opponent’s view (in which case you never should have hit “send” on that post) or you do understand your opponent’s view and are purposely misleading others (in which case you probably shouldn’t own a computer). Brothers, in order to speak on a particular issue, you need to do your homework. And, by “homework,” I don’t mean skimming Wikipedia. Understanding your opponent’s view from his own perspective keeps you from landing a devastating uppercut on a jaw made entirely of straw. Think of it this way: If mischaracterizing opponents is what internet atheists do on Twitter, why would you want to do this to a fellow believer?

#4 Be Honest about Your Shortcomings

It seems to me that people from both camps tend to be, let’s just say, selective in the passages of Scripture that they cite in support of their view. That is, they selectively forget the ones that don’t support their view. Also, for some reason, I keep noticing that the average Arminian is way more interested in his system than citing Scripture while the average Calvinist doesn’t want to do anything but cite Scripture. Maybe that’s not characteristic of these groups. I’m open to that. The point is: In order to formulate a robust view, the Calvinist and the Arminian must deal with the problems their respective systems create. Calvinists, how do you square Luke 7:30 with your view? Arminians, how do you deal with Jesus’ own words in John 6:65? And, most importantly, are your answers sufficient to the challenge or are they just exercises in swatting them away?

In Conclusion

Here’s the point, gentlemen: Whether Arminian or Calvinist, neither of you is at 100% certainty in your respective views. I don’t need to meet any of you to know that you’re not. No one is. We are all somewhere between 51% and 100% certainty. But all of these issues I’ve raised so far seem to stem from those acting as if they’re 100% certain. So why don’t we all calm down, try to reconcile all of Scripture to our particular viewpoints (because maybe you have a good argument to share that we haven’t heard yet), and exhibit a heck of a lot more humility and less ostentation. I mean, isn’t the real purpose of these kinds of discussions to be winsome not gruesome?

Why Some Arminians and Calvinists Need to Calm Down

Good thing I'm neither.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I give a thumbs down when someone has no understanding of Bible truth.

This insulting response is unworthy of a reply,.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

The correct understanding of this verse.

For God so loved the world he gave his one only son, means he gave his one and only son to the whole world, which means he loves the whole world and everyone in it.


But then it says whoever believes in him will have eternal life. Whoever here is no longer the whole world.

As whoever in a biblical understanding means many are called, ,(the whole world). But whoever ( few) will be chosen.

Which means the whole world has been chosen to receive salvation, but God will choose who does not perish.

Because few will believe.

So to summarise calvinism is a false doctrine because, calvinism claims only certain people will be offered salvation.


Well it's not the case, all are offered salvation.

All are offered salvation by God's grace.

Titus confirms this.

So Calvinism is in error, plain and simple.

 

[PaulThomson]

Listen brother-just woke up to see you hounding and pounding-you steel man my position whilst you are clutching at straws.

The problem is that you keep posting walls of text that cite multiple verses that are miles away from the context of the scripture on which I have called out your unwarranted eisegetical interpretation. There is a word limit to posts here, so I will break up such posts by you into their constituent passages and deal with each on a separate post, so that we can deal exegetically with each passage, and not end up with increasingly complex text salads. You can help the discussion by answering the actual questions posed you on the text, rather than building a haystack of words from scripture and commentaries.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But then it says whoever believes in him will have eternal life. Whoever here is no longer the whole world.

That is incorrect ."Whoever" still means whoever in all the world. If all would believe, all would be saved.

 

[Thunderrr-mental]

That is incorrect ."Whoever" still means whoever in all the world. If all would believe, all would be saved.

. Whoever is still the whole world, yes, I agree, but whoever means not the whole world will be saved.

 

[PaulThomson]

4 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ver. 44. No man can come to me, except, &c.] Down then goes the Dagon of free will, with all that vitreum acumen glass point of all the patrons thereof; whether Pagans or Papagans, Pelagians or Semi-pelagians.

John speaks about many people coming to Jesus between Chapters 1 and 7. Not all that came to Him came because they believed in Him. They came because they heard his controversial teaching (given Him by the Father) and saw his miracles (given by the Father). John says two of John's disciples came to Jesu. Then Peter and Nathanael came to Jesus. then because of His miracles at the passover, many came, Nicodemas came by night to Jesus. The Samaritan woman's village came to Him. An official whose son was ill came to jesus becaus he had heard of Jesus works and words. Jews csme to Jesus seeking ways to kill him because of his teaching and miracles. in ch.6 a large crowd is following Him because hey saw the signs he was doing on the sick. Judas came to Jesus because of the signs of power.

Coming to Jesus does not equal believing in Him. John says that Everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest their works be exposed. So why did all these sinners come to Jesus to observe him? Because the Father drew them with signs and controversial teaching.

There is nothing here about the Father's drawing being an effectual drawing to faith in Christ. It is a strategic attracting of sinners to bait them into choosing freely to come and inspect the Lamb of God. But some come and believe and some come and want to kill Him.

 

[PaulThomson]

He doesn't know what he is talking about-pontificate.


Ephesians 1:4-5: "Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will"

Romans 9:11-18: "For the children not yet being born, nor having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works but of Him who calls"

Romans 8:29-30: "For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the first-born among many brethren; and whom He predestined, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified"

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed"

2 Thessalonians 2:13: "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation"

2 Timothy 1:9: "God has saved us, and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity"

Election and salvation-indissolubly one.

Only if you excise texts from their contexts and eisegete AUGUSTINIAN-neo-platonic-manichaean determinism and exhaustive divine foreknowledge into the resultant salad.