Why I believe the Great Tribulation started in 70 A.D.

[GaryA]

This last bit of our conversation has really helped me a lot. I realize now that the time of great tribulation - great trouble or suffering, ENDS and THEN the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven.

Exactly. Why? Because that is what the Bible actually says.

This is proof positive that the sun, moon and stars falling from heaven ARE NOT literal entities, they represent Israel and the kingdom being taken away from them and given to another nation.

I will have to disagree with this part - I believe it is literal.

I believe the Trumpet events are brought about by the Two Witnesses.

Go take a look at the 'Order Of Events' page in the 'Study' section of my website. Examine all of the verses in the Trumpet columns.

 

[GaryA]

Does the bible call it an event or is that just "religious jargon" brought about by dispensationalism and "The 7 Year Tribulation"?

Unless I'm missing something, the bible doesn't describe it as an event it just says it will be a time of great tribulation.

Another good point; however, the previously mentioned verses 21 and 29 indicate that it is a "marked" period of time - having a beginning and end - does it not?

 

[KJV1611]

Exactly. Why? Because that is what the Bible actually says.
[/QUOTE"]
If the stars literally fall from the sky that would be massive tribulation to those on planet earth.

I will have to disagree with this part - I believe it is literal.

I believe the Trumpet events are brought about by the Two Witnesses.

Go take a look at the 'Order Of Events' page in the 'Study' section of my website. Examine all of the verses in the Trumpet columns.

I will check out the trumpets on your page.

 

[KJV1611]

Another good point; however, the previously mentioned verses 21 and 29 indicate that it is a "marked" period of time - having a beginning and end - does it not?

I agree, it is a marked time, start with the AoD and ending just before the stars fall from the sky.

 

[GaryA]

If the stars literally fall from the sky that would be massive tribulation to those on planet earth.

Kinda depends on what stars really are and where they really are - doesn't it?

The Bible gives us the real answers.

 

[KJV1611]

Exactly. Why? Because that is what the Bible actually says.


I will have to disagree with this part - I believe it is literal.

I believe the Trumpet events are brought about by the Two Witnesses.

Go take a look at the 'Order Of Events' page in the 'Study' section of my website. Examine all of the verses in the Trumpet columns.

I screwed my first response to this up.... I'm not good with multiple quotes.

What I said was - if the literal stars fall from the sky, it will cause massive tribulation on this earth.
And the last part was - I will check your site out.

 

[KJV1611]

Kinda depends on what stars really are and where they really are - doesn't it?

The Bible gives us the real answers.

That's a new one for me, what does the bible say the stars really are... Fallen angels?

 

[KJV1611]

I looked at your spreadsheet on the trumpets and found you have Luke 21:25-26 listed under trumpets.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

One thing that caught my eye was that the earth would be in distress, men's hearts will be failing them for fear... this is tribulation, great tribulation. I'm not bringing it up to that the verses shouldn't go under the trumpets section, I'm saying because Luke 21:25-26 happens AFTER the "Great Tribulation" ends.

So that means that "The Great Tribulation" ends and then great tribulation BEGINS - the earth in distress, men's hearts failing them for fear.

 

[GaryA]

I looked at your spreadsheet on the trumpets and found you have Luke 21:25-26 listed under trumpets.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

One thing that caught my eye was that the earth would be in distress, men's hearts will be failing them for fear... this is tribulation, great tribulation. I'm not bringing it up to that the verses shouldn't go under the trumpets section, I'm saying because Luke 21:25-26 happens AFTER the "Great Tribulation" ends.

So that means that "The Great Tribulation" ends and then great tribulation BEGINS - the earth in distress, men's hearts failing them for fear.

Hmmmmm...

It may be that the first three of the Trumpet events could be considered part of the GT.

I will definitely have to look into that...

 

[tourist]

Let me try this again...

The 'Day of the Lord' is two things:

~ [a particular specific] 1000-years
~ the first day of that 1000 years

The first day is the day Jesus returns.

Regarding the day of the Lord and the 1000 year reign, a day in the eyes of the Lord are a thousand years and a thousand years a day. Based on this your estimation on this point is right on target.

 

[KJV1611]

Hmmmmm...

It may be that the first three of the Trumpet events could be considered part of the GT.

I will definitely have to look into that...

I know this is not your cup of tea but I just noticed this in Luke.

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When we see all those things happen, then is the time of our redemption.

Gal_3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

We're not waiting for those things to come to pass in the future, we have already been redeemed.

 

[GaryA]

That's a new one for me, what does the bible say the stars really are... Fallen angels?

Fallen? No. Angels? Maybe.

What is for absolute certain is that they are not what modern science says they are.

But, that is a topic for another thread.

Read Genesis 1:1-20 very carefully. Pay particularly close attention to the word 'firmament'.

What is this passage telling you?

What does the Bible actually say?

 

[GaryA]

I know this is not your cup of tea {???} but I just noticed this in Luke.

Luk 21:28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.

When we see all those things happen, then is the time of our redemption.

Gal_3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

We're not waiting for those things to come to pass in the future, we have already been redeemed.

Well --- yes and no.

Our redemption/salvation is not actually "full and complete" until we have our glorified body. Until then, we "have" it on a promise...

 

[KJV1611]

Well --- yes and no.

Our redemption/salvation is not actually "full and complete" until we have our glorified body. Until then, we "have" it on a promise...

You’re ignoring bread crumbs (here a little there a little).

 

[azamzimtoti]

I don't see from context how the GT can be over nearly 2000 years when Jesus himself said the days of the GT were to be shortened:

(Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.)

(Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.)

(Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.)

(Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?)

 

[GaryA]

I don't see from context how the GT can be over nearly 2000 years when Jesus himself said the days of the GT were to be shortened:

Whether the time span is an hour, a day, or a million years - only the end of it is shortened...

 

[azamzimtoti]

Whether the time span is an hour, a day, or a million years - only the end of it is shortened...

This answer does not pass muster Gary, what you are doing is forcing into Jesus' words the GT will continue then at the end the days would then be shortened.

You are trying to force your theory on the word rather than let the word inform your theory.

(Luke 23:28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.)

(Luke 23:30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.)

John brings his readers attention to "those days" in the revelation:

(Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb)

Jesus' statement to the women indicates they would be alive at that time, John repeats the motif in his revelation to give us a time indicator.

 

[GaryA]

@GaryA

This last bit of our conversation has really helped me a lot. I realize now that the time of great tribulation - great trouble or suffering, ENDS and THEN the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven.

This is proof positive that the sun, moon and stars falling from heaven ARE NOT literal entities, they represent Israel and the kingdom being taken away from them and given to another nation.

The description details of the Trumpet events are either literal or symbolic. You cannot "pick and choose" which you want to be literal and which you want to be symbolic. So, which is it? Are they all literal or are they all symbolic?

 

[GaryA]

You’re ignoring bread crumbs (here a little there a little).

Like what?

 

[KJV1611]

The description details of the Trumpet events are either literal or symbolic. You cannot "pick and choose" which you want to be literal and which you want to be symbolic. So, which is it? Are they all literal or are they all symbolic?

Revelation was "SIGNIFIED", the entire book is given in symbolic language.

I'm not sure what you're asking, "pick and chose".

I don't believe an angel is going to be hovering over the sky blowing a trumpet but I do believe the symbolic or spiritual trumpet will certainly sound.