Why have the Sign Gifts Ended
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The message is sent if faith and fidelity of God. It is received into corrupt minds of men. The problem is not with Gods word but the heart that rejects the truth.
It is the glory of kings to search out a matter. Languages are learned through hard work and God giving wisdom. There is no miraculous gift of languages as you demand so your accusation is revealed to be without merit.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
It is the glory of kings to search out a matter. Languages are learned through hard work and God giving wisdom. There is no miraculous gift of languages as you demand so your accusation is revealed to be without merit.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You are the one acting foolish. Why do you accuse me with no basis? You arbitrarily redefine words in scriptures? Your position makes no sense at all. If 'prophesying' includes the type of preaching you allow for, and preachers do so by the grace of God through the Holy Spirit, then the gift of prophesying has not ceased. Do a word study on 'charism' and 'charis.' On the one hand, you argue the gift has ceased, and on the other you argue it has not.
The idea that pulpit preaching is (or some of it can be) prophesying is contrary to the interpretation that prophecy ceased. There are many who think preaching is prophesying based on Calvin's understanding that _some_ preaching of the word is prophesying. Calvin also considered the interpretation that the perfect had already come to be stupid, according to his commentary on I Corinthians 13. But the preaching as prophesying and can be done today view is inconsistent with the idea that prophecy ceased.
They ended. The people there stopped speaking in tongues, but other people started again in Acts 10, and they were speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14. If you think speaking in tongues in the context of I Corinthians 14 is talking about mundane speaking in other languages like the example of translating Haiti French or Creole into English or vice versa, then it makes no sense at all to say that it has ceased. And why would I Corinthians 13 be about a different type of 'tongues' than chapter 14? If you wanted, you could admit that chapter 14 is not talking about mundane translation of languages using the mind. But if that is your position, your interpretation seems to be rather nonsensical and self contradictory.
The idea that pulpit preaching is (or some of it can be) prophesying is contrary to the interpretation that prophecy ceased. There are many who think preaching is prophesying based on Calvin's understanding that _some_ preaching of the word is prophesying. Calvin also considered the interpretation that the perfect had already come to be stupid, according to his commentary on I Corinthians 13. But the preaching as prophesying and can be done today view is inconsistent with the idea that prophecy ceased.
They ended. The people there stopped speaking in tongues, but other people started again in Acts 10, and they were speaking in tongues in I Corinthians 14. If you think speaking in tongues in the context of I Corinthians 14 is talking about mundane speaking in other languages like the example of translating Haiti French or Creole into English or vice versa, then it makes no sense at all to say that it has ceased. And why would I Corinthians 13 be about a different type of 'tongues' than chapter 14? If you wanted, you could admit that chapter 14 is not talking about mundane translation of languages using the mind. But if that is your position, your interpretation seems to be rather nonsensical and self contradictory.
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@notuptome
Yes explain this. If you believe that only three gifts have ceased, how does the gift of interpretation of tongues operate without the gift of 'divers tongues'?
Yes explain this. If you believe that only three gifts have ceased, how does the gift of interpretation of tongues operate without the gift of 'divers tongues'?
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@notuptome Your interpretation of the definitions/meaning of tongues and prophecy reminds me of Fizzbin.
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Subbing to the thread to hear this explanation... and while we're there, I'd like to hear explanation also how at present day do we see God face to face, and know God as we are known, yet MORE and BETTER now than the apostles did (who were taught face to face by Jesus)? And please whoever undertakes to answer, don't try to tell me that "knowing God as we are known" and "seeing God face to face" is to have a book about God available and to read a book, because even an atheist can do that, so please come up with something remotely reasonably convincing. Thanks...
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[/QUOTE]
Now you know the gift of tongues (language), as discussed in the Scriptures, is the ability to speak a foreign language by the power of the Holy Spirit. A language not previously known by the speaker. This particular gift has ceased. This does not include the gibberish spoken in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches today. The sole called gibberish being assigned to some kind of "angelic" language or heavenly language is not Biblical. In 1 Cor. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. , though many use this verse as some sort of proof text, Paul was not saying he could do these things. The reader was to acknowledge a form of sarcasm here:
Paul could not do the following:
1) Speak in all of the languages of men.
2) Speak as an angel.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3) He did have the gift of prophecy but he did not understand ALL mysteries.
4) He did not have ALL knowledge.
5) His faith was not such he could move mountains.
These items were for contrast only. Paul was saying "IF" I could do all these things and had not love, then it would all be for nothing.
Now you know the gift of tongues (language), as discussed in the Scriptures, is the ability to speak a foreign language by the power of the Holy Spirit. A language not previously known by the speaker. This particular gift has ceased. This does not include the gibberish spoken in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches today. The sole called gibberish being assigned to some kind of "angelic" language or heavenly language is not Biblical. In 1 Cor. 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. , though many use this verse as some sort of proof text, Paul was not saying he could do these things. The reader was to acknowledge a form of sarcasm here:
Paul could not do the following:
1) Speak in all of the languages of men.
2) Speak as an angel.
1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3) He did have the gift of prophecy but he did not understand ALL mysteries.
4) He did not have ALL knowledge.
5) His faith was not such he could move mountains.
These items were for contrast only. Paul was saying "IF" I could do all these things and had not love, then it would all be for nothing.
Have you ever endeavored to interpret from one language to another? Like speaking in a second language it requires some skill and knowledge of grammar in both languages.
You question like most you pose has an alternate motive but like the interpretation of the bible from Hebrew and Greek into English was no small feat.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
You question like most you pose has an alternate motive but like the interpretation of the bible from Hebrew and Greek into English was no small feat.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
Quite well actually. Study and application of knowledge in interpreting one language into another. How did the bible interpreters do taking the Hebrew and Greek and writing it out in English?
I believe it is you that fails to first define which terms you are using in any discussion. If you actually used biblical definitions in your discussions you would not create doubt and strife among the body of Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
I believe it is you that fails to first define which terms you are using in any discussion. If you actually used biblical definitions in your discussions you would not create doubt and strife among the body of Christ.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The "Sign Gifts" ended because they were given to the Apostles by Jesus Christ in the Great Comission of Mark 16:14-16......
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. "
Only the ELEVEN Apostles plus Paul had the Sign Gifts as they were the only Apostles. When they died the Sign Gifts ended.
1 Corth. 13:8-9 is your confirmation where we see..........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. "
The "PERFECT" in the original Greek is "Teleion" which means COMPLETE. IMHO is the completed Written Word of God.
IT can not mean Jesus Christ as He has always been perfect and did not become complete as He always was.
IT can not mean the 2nd Coming of Christ at the Rapture as there will be millions left behind who will get saved.
IT can not be heaven as 13:10 says the Perfect is come. Heaven does not come to us....we go to it.
By simple eliminatiion IMO we can see that the only perfect thing left that has come is the "Completed" Word of God.
"Afterward he appeared unto the ELEVEN as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. 15And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. "
Only the ELEVEN Apostles plus Paul had the Sign Gifts as they were the only Apostles. When they died the Sign Gifts ended.
1 Corth. 13:8-9 is your confirmation where we see..........
"Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. 9For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. 10But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. "
The "PERFECT" in the original Greek is "Teleion" which means COMPLETE. IMHO is the completed Written Word of God.
IT can not mean Jesus Christ as He has always been perfect and did not become complete as He always was.
IT can not mean the 2nd Coming of Christ at the Rapture as there will be millions left behind who will get saved.
IT can not be heaven as 13:10 says the Perfect is come. Heaven does not come to us....we go to it.
By simple eliminatiion IMO we can see that the only perfect thing left that has come is the "Completed" Word of God.