Why free will?
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Some of this we don't fully know nor can understand. What can I give GOD? He needs nothing. I wonder about what GOD knew when it came to Adam and Eve. Well take Satan (not to derail sorry) God said "you were blameless in your ways from the day you were created, until unrighteousness was found in you". The only one that could see that was GOD. Never said I knew you would fall because of unrighteousness was in you when I created you". He never said "Adam I see you hiding there". No He had to ask "where are you" then "who told you" Then "did you eat of the tree". Later we read God "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know".
I am not saying anything but there is so much here we do not understand. Things like "God remembered" Or "Put Me in remembrance; Let us contend together; State your case, that you may be acquitted.". As if He forgets? Haha no. We still look at all this through the eyes of flesh what we know here. You left out it pleased GOD to send His son to die for the worlds sin THANK YOU FATHER.. THANK YOU YESHUA only time I will shout. You can let lost so fast in all this lol or I can. Well to read in Rev "and all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of the life of the lamb who was slain"
What love the Father has shown to us..
I am not saying anything but there is so much here we do not understand. Things like "God remembered" Or "Put Me in remembrance; Let us contend together; State your case, that you may be acquitted.". As if He forgets? Haha no. We still look at all this through the eyes of flesh what we know here. You left out it pleased GOD to send His son to die for the worlds sin THANK YOU FATHER.. THANK YOU YESHUA only time I will shout. You can let lost so fast in all this lol or I can. Well to read in Rev "and all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of the life of the lamb who was slain"
What love the Father has shown to us..
OK, we both agree that God knows all the infinity of odd numbers. Even by this admitting he has this single sector of all available knowledge, He has infinite knowledge.
We also agree that He has all knowledge. But maybe we disagree on what knowledge and knowing are. How would you define knowing?
I opine that knowing something is having 100% confidence that that something is true. Since God cannot be wrong about what is real, whatever He believes without any doubt, i.e. whatever He knows, must be true. Whatever God believes in the present to be a future possibility, but to be as yet undetermined, is not something that CAN be truly known in the present. Therefore, God not knowing in the present something that God Himself perceives in the present as merely an uncertain future possibility, cannot be regarded as any lack of knowledge on God's part. One's knowledge is that body of facts that one regards as certainly true. Correct knowledge is that body of facts that one regards as true which are actually true.
How do you define knowledge and knowing?
https://iep.utm.edu/epistemo/#:~:te... is a specific,cannot have knowledge about it.
We also agree that He has all knowledge. But maybe we disagree on what knowledge and knowing are. How would you define knowing?
I opine that knowing something is having 100% confidence that that something is true. Since God cannot be wrong about what is real, whatever He believes without any doubt, i.e. whatever He knows, must be true. Whatever God believes in the present to be a future possibility, but to be as yet undetermined, is not something that CAN be truly known in the present. Therefore, God not knowing in the present something that God Himself perceives in the present as merely an uncertain future possibility, cannot be regarded as any lack of knowledge on God's part. One's knowledge is that body of facts that one regards as certainly true. Correct knowledge is that body of facts that one regards as true which are actually true.
How do you define knowledge and knowing?
https://iep.utm.edu/epistemo/#:~:te... is a specific,cannot have knowledge about it.
I believe it's possible for knowledge to be defined. But I don't believe it follows that the definition of knowledge is the same for a finite mind and an infinite mind. To me, that is apples and oranges. The definitions would not be the same. In other words, what knowledge consists in for man pales in comparison to that of God. And not only in the amount of knowledge an infinite mind can know, but also in the nature of the knowledge itself. We think of knowledge as a body of information that has occurred or can be known. I don't believe this to be the case for a mind that knows the end from the beginning.
At any rate, I'm moving on from the conversation. Thanks for all you have shared.
At any rate, I'm moving on from the conversation. Thanks for all you have shared.
Then you personally should not use that words knowledge, knowing and their cognates when talking of God's characteristics. If God is so different from us, that our vocabulary does not actually describe anything about Him, despite His revelation where He uses our vocabulary and also says that we are made in his image, you can have nothing to say about God that is actually true when heard by a human mind.
Due to the fall of Adam and Eve, everyone comes into this world being spiritually dead in sin. As spiritually dead, we are/were all incapable of assimilating nor comprehending things spiritual. Just as a physically dead person cannot comprehend things earthly, neither can a spiritually dead person comprehend things spiritual. For that, one first must be given spiritual life. Until and unless that first occurs, for the spiritually dead, truly free will is impossible: the dead do not/cannot realize they're dead. Spiritual life cannot be given to oneself but only by God.
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
[Eph 2:1 KJV] 1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[Col 2:13 KJV] 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
[Luk 1:77 KJV] 77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,
Define free will...........
God told Israel that His law was not too hard to keep. (Deuteronomy 30:14). Did God lie to Israel? Was God unfair to demand obedience if the people were not free to obey? Not at all. God is righteous, holy and just.
The problem is not so black and white as many believe. The will of man follows his desire. If people want something badly enough, they will do what it takes to get it. The problem with God's law is that the human race has no desire whatever to obey it. Even if there is a semblance of outward observance, there is no heart obedience. Even King David, the man after God's own heart, fell victim to the lust of his own heart, then sinned again to cover it up.
This is exactly why God gives sinners a new heart, a nature that does not love to sin. Jesus comes into the heart of those who receive Him and brings new desires as well. For example, I could not read God's word and church was the most boring place on earth for me. I had an immediate change of heart with those two issues. I know many who are born again who've had similar experiences.
So the will of man is free to choose, but he instinctively chooses against God and His ways. (John 3:19) God will judge man's behaviour. And no one will say to God, "I had no choice."
God told Israel that His law was not too hard to keep. (Deuteronomy 30:14). Did God lie to Israel? Was God unfair to demand obedience if the people were not free to obey? Not at all. God is righteous, holy and just.
The problem is not so black and white as many believe. The will of man follows his desire. If people want something badly enough, they will do what it takes to get it. The problem with God's law is that the human race has no desire whatever to obey it. Even if there is a semblance of outward observance, there is no heart obedience. Even King David, the man after God's own heart, fell victim to the lust of his own heart, then sinned again to cover it up.
This is exactly why God gives sinners a new heart, a nature that does not love to sin. Jesus comes into the heart of those who receive Him and brings new desires as well. For example, I could not read God's word and church was the most boring place on earth for me. I had an immediate change of heart with those two issues. I know many who are born again who've had similar experiences.
So the will of man is free to choose, but he instinctively chooses against God and His ways. (John 3:19) God will judge man's behaviour. And no one will say to God, "I had no choice."
LOL - aren't you the one who stated that man has it so shouldn't it be you to define
it to me and explain how that a spiritually dead person can have it - and not that I should define it to you?
Why did they not satisfy it? Because they couldn't. And God was not unjust for making His law His law. That is why God brought forth Christ as Saviour - because man of himself, can't satisfy it. Law is law not because of man's ability to keep it, but rather because it is right and good in God's eyes.
Man, being spiritually dead (before saved/born-again), cannot know that which he is spiritually oblivious to - he must first be made alive spiritually to know it. That is exactly the point of verses I included in my reply. When and if someone is made spiritually alive by God, then they through Christ, will find they are exactly where their will desire them to be: saved.
Man, even David, does/could not and cannot satisfy God's law. Christ alone through God's mercy and grace satisfied it on their behalf, and freely imputes it unto those whom He had so chosen for salvation.
Whoa. If man always chooses by instinct against God's law, then he doesn't and can't have a free will, can he?
The question then becomes, which law of God must be satisfied by man? The answer: none. it was satisfied solely by Christ on the behalf of those whom He had so chosen for salvation.
it to me and explain how that a spiritually dead person can have it - and not that I should define it to you?
Why did they not satisfy it? Because they couldn't. And God was not unjust for making His law His law. That is why God brought forth Christ as Saviour - because man of himself, can't satisfy it. Law is law not because of man's ability to keep it, but rather because it is right and good in God's eyes.
Man, being spiritually dead (before saved/born-again), cannot know that which he is spiritually oblivious to - he must first be made alive spiritually to know it. That is exactly the point of verses I included in my reply. When and if someone is made spiritually alive by God, then they through Christ, will find they are exactly where their will desire them to be: saved.
Man, even David, does/could not and cannot satisfy God's law. Christ alone through God's mercy and grace satisfied it on their behalf, and freely imputes it unto those whom He had so chosen for salvation.
Whoa. If man always chooses by instinct against God's law, then he doesn't and can't have a free will, can he?
The question then becomes, which law of God must be satisfied by man? The answer: none. it was satisfied solely by Christ on the behalf of those whom He had so chosen for salvation.
But the natural man is not just instinct, which is the flesh. He is also mind and spirit. With his mind the natural man can choose that which is rational and reasonable, based on the evidence for God's existence and the reasonableness of God's revelations presented in the law, the prophets and the psalms. If God had ensured that men can only desire what is immoral/sin, as exhaustive determinists would assert, then He would have made righteous desires and choices impossible for men to avoid, and God would be the blameworthy author of men's sins. But Gid has not done this and has left men free to choose which of their desires they will prioritise and try to fulfil.
If your telling me that the Old Testament Prophets were saved your wrongly Mistaken ---they were still under the laws and has to use animal Sacrifices same as all others to be free from sin only for one year --and when they died they went to the upper region of hell called Abraham's Bosom ---until Jesus died and was resurrected and went to Abraham"s Bosom to preach the Gospel to the Old Testament Saints so they could be saved and reside in Heaven
So better think again ---and research the scriptures a little more -----The OT Saints had God's Favor on them only ---till jesus accomplished what He did on the Cross ----and in His resurrection
Where did Old Testament believers go when they died?
They suggest that Old Testament saints who died went to the realm called “Abraham's bosom” (cf. Luke 16:22–23) — a sort of holding tank. According to this theory, these believers were kept in that compartment of Hades and not brought into the heaven of heavens until Christ conquered death in His resurrection.
So better think again ---and research the scriptures a little more -----The OT Saints had God's Favor on them only ---till jesus accomplished what He did on the Cross ----and in His resurrection
Where did Old Testament believers go when they died?
They suggest that Old Testament saints who died went to the realm called “Abraham's bosom” (cf. Luke 16:22–23) — a sort of holding tank. According to this theory, these believers were kept in that compartment of Hades and not brought into the heaven of heavens until Christ conquered death in His resurrection.
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Those whom Christ died for, the called,(Rom 8:28-30) those that his Father gave him, (John 10:29) (John 17:2), After Christ redeemed them from their sins, as a sacrifice to God, for God's acceptance, not to mankind for their acceptance, God looks upon them as having no sin that will keep them from inheriting eternal life in heaven, (Psalms 103:12),
Once a person has been quickened, while they were yet spiritually dead, (Eph 2:1-5), they still carry the baggage of their fleshly nature with them, and at times yield themselves to the temptation of things of the world, and commit sins.
We all struggle with that, just as Paul did (1 John 1:6-10). Once we have been born again, and commit a sin, we separate ourselves from God's fellowship, temporary, until we repent. However, we never lose our inheritance of eternal heaven.
If you think that after you are born again, that you quit sinning, your theory does not harmonize with the scriptures