Why Do We Pretend to know when JESUS was BORN?
- Thread starter BroTan
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Brother, I think that now you are simply trying to be argumentative.... sorry to say.
NOBODY calls Dec 25th "Christ's Mass"..... doesn't matter if "Christmas" may have originated with that word, it's not called that, or celebrated as such now.
If that is a sticking point with you, you will have to stop calling the days of the week Mon-Sun.... those names are ALL "remakes" of pagan or mythological gods.
Same thing with the months of the year.... we should not be looking for the negativity, we should appreciate the positive impact that the season can bring.
NOBODY calls Dec 25th "Christ's Mass"..... doesn't matter if "Christmas" may have originated with that word, it's not called that, or celebrated as such now.
If that is a sticking point with you, you will have to stop calling the days of the week Mon-Sun.... those names are ALL "remakes" of pagan or mythological gods.
Same thing with the months of the year.... we should not be looking for the negativity, we should appreciate the positive impact that the season can bring.
-
2
-
1
- Show all
Reminder of the methodology and early testimonies in this article: https://onepeterfive.com/dates-years-birth-death-christ/
"Now, if the Baptist was conceived in late September, Christ the Lord would have been conceived in late March. Similarly, we can reasonably deduce that the Baptist would be born around late June, nine months after conception.
Third Point: Therefore, Christ Our Lord was conceived on March 25, 2 B.C. and born Dec. 25, 2 B.C.
It is an interesting point that “the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, that is, the month of Kislev” (1 Mac. 4:22) was already held in honor as a Festival of Light. It is the Feast of Dedication in winter mentioned by St. John (10:22). The Hebrew calendar begins in March-April in Nisan, so its ninth month roughly comes to our twelfth month, December, in most years. It is highly fitting that the 25th day of the 12th month on the Christian calendar should have been set apart for Christ, “The Light of the World” (Jn. 8:12), to make His entrance into the world.
The Baptist being born in late June, as shown in the Second Point, Christ Our Lord certainly would have been born around late December. The witness of Tradition, of very early historical Tradition, is clear on this point.
Bp. Theophilus (115–181 A.D.) stated: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”
Saint Hippolytus (170–240 A.D.) wrote: “The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam.”
St. Augustine finally confirms: “But he was born, according to Tradition, upon December the 25th.”
In sum, Our Lord’s date of birth: Dec. 25, 2 B.C. Our Lord’s date of crucifixion: April 3, 33 A.D.
Therefore, the first Easter: April 5, 33 A.D. The 50th day, the first Pentecost: May 24, 33 A.D."
Saint Augustine as I mentioned was a Fourth Century Bishop, but the other Bishops were 2nd century. Much, much earlier.
"Now, if the Baptist was conceived in late September, Christ the Lord would have been conceived in late March. Similarly, we can reasonably deduce that the Baptist would be born around late June, nine months after conception.
Third Point: Therefore, Christ Our Lord was conceived on March 25, 2 B.C. and born Dec. 25, 2 B.C.
It is an interesting point that “the twenty-fifth day of the ninth month, that is, the month of Kislev” (1 Mac. 4:22) was already held in honor as a Festival of Light. It is the Feast of Dedication in winter mentioned by St. John (10:22). The Hebrew calendar begins in March-April in Nisan, so its ninth month roughly comes to our twelfth month, December, in most years. It is highly fitting that the 25th day of the 12th month on the Christian calendar should have been set apart for Christ, “The Light of the World” (Jn. 8:12), to make His entrance into the world.
The Baptist being born in late June, as shown in the Second Point, Christ Our Lord certainly would have been born around late December. The witness of Tradition, of very early historical Tradition, is clear on this point.
Bp. Theophilus (115–181 A.D.) stated: “We ought to celebrate the birthday of Our Lord on what day soever the 25th of December shall happen.”
Saint Hippolytus (170–240 A.D.) wrote: “The First Advent of our Lord in the flesh occurred when He was born in Bethlehem, was December 25th, a Wednesday, while Augustus was in his forty-second year, which is five thousand and five hundred years from Adam.”
St. Augustine finally confirms: “But he was born, according to Tradition, upon December the 25th.”
In sum, Our Lord’s date of birth: Dec. 25, 2 B.C. Our Lord’s date of crucifixion: April 3, 33 A.D.
Therefore, the first Easter: April 5, 33 A.D. The 50th day, the first Pentecost: May 24, 33 A.D."
Saint Augustine as I mentioned was a Fourth Century Bishop, but the other Bishops were 2nd century. Much, much earlier.
-
1
- Show all
K
Here is a scholarly work with more info: https://www.academia.edu/38047407/R...stmas_Date_in_Several_Early_Patristic_Writers
"3. Evodius In the preceding section, we were chiefly concerned to show that Africanus is the ultimate author of heretofore unrecognized portions of the Excerpta Barbari and that he held to the December 25th birth of Christ. In this section, we examine a work attributed to Evodius that also affirms the December 25th nativity. Evodius relies upon what appears to be an early version of the Protoevangelium of James, which allows us to tentatively date the composition prior to the latter half of the second century when the Protoevangelium is thought to have assumed its present form. Perhaps the earliest putative witness of the December 25th birth of Christ is from Evodius (“Euodius”), the second bishop of the church of Antioch, Syria. Nicephorus calls Evodius a “successor” of the apostles and is related to have been ordained by St. Peter. Tradition has it that he was one of the Seventy sent out by the Lord (Luke 10:1). He is believed to have suffered martyrdom in the persecution under Nero (AD 64-68). According to Bingham: From Jerusalem, if we pass to Antioch, there again we find Euodius first, and after him Ignatius, ordained bishops by the hands of the apostles. Baronius and some others fancy, that they sat both at the same time, the one as bishop of the Jews, and the other of the Gentiles; but Eusebius says expressly, that Euodius was the first, and Ignatius the second, after Euodius was dead. And it is agreed by all ancient writers, that they were both consecrated before St. Peter's death.41 Evodius therefore carries us back as near to the fountainhead of the faith as possible outside of the New Testament itself. The only writing that has reputedly survived of Evodius is part of an epistle quoted by Nicephorus: From the baptism unto the passion of Christ there were three years; from the passion, resurrection, and his ascension into heaven unto the stoning of Steven, seven years; from Steven’s martyrdom unto the time when light encompassed Paul, six months. From there unto the decease of the holy mother of God, three years. He [Evodius] says the period from the nativity of Christ unto the passing of the mother of God was forty-four years; but the whole of her life, fifty-nine years. This sum obtains if it was in fact the case42 that she was presented at the temple when she was three years old and there in the holy precincts spent eleven years. Then, by the priest’s hands was placed in the custody of Joseph, with whom she resided four months when she received the joyful announcement from the angel Gabriel. However, she gave birth to the Light of this World, the twenty-fifth day of the month of December, being fifteen years of age. Following this, she passed thirty-three years, which sum also her son completed on earth, who was even the eternal and before all ages Word. After the cross, however, at his request she dwelt in the home of John eleven years, so that of her life-time there were altogether fifty-nine years.43"
This writing is still being studied by scholars, and if it is confirmed, it would be a First Century Reference to the Birth of Christ in December.
The Evodius mentioned in the work above is mentioned here on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evodius
At any rate, there are at the least 2nd century references to Christ's Birth in December, far earlier than 336 A.D. or 354 A.D.
God Bless.
"3. Evodius In the preceding section, we were chiefly concerned to show that Africanus is the ultimate author of heretofore unrecognized portions of the Excerpta Barbari and that he held to the December 25th birth of Christ. In this section, we examine a work attributed to Evodius that also affirms the December 25th nativity. Evodius relies upon what appears to be an early version of the Protoevangelium of James, which allows us to tentatively date the composition prior to the latter half of the second century when the Protoevangelium is thought to have assumed its present form. Perhaps the earliest putative witness of the December 25th birth of Christ is from Evodius (“Euodius”), the second bishop of the church of Antioch, Syria. Nicephorus calls Evodius a “successor” of the apostles and is related to have been ordained by St. Peter. Tradition has it that he was one of the Seventy sent out by the Lord (Luke 10:1). He is believed to have suffered martyrdom in the persecution under Nero (AD 64-68). According to Bingham: From Jerusalem, if we pass to Antioch, there again we find Euodius first, and after him Ignatius, ordained bishops by the hands of the apostles. Baronius and some others fancy, that they sat both at the same time, the one as bishop of the Jews, and the other of the Gentiles; but Eusebius says expressly, that Euodius was the first, and Ignatius the second, after Euodius was dead. And it is agreed by all ancient writers, that they were both consecrated before St. Peter's death.41 Evodius therefore carries us back as near to the fountainhead of the faith as possible outside of the New Testament itself. The only writing that has reputedly survived of Evodius is part of an epistle quoted by Nicephorus: From the baptism unto the passion of Christ there were three years; from the passion, resurrection, and his ascension into heaven unto the stoning of Steven, seven years; from Steven’s martyrdom unto the time when light encompassed Paul, six months. From there unto the decease of the holy mother of God, three years. He [Evodius] says the period from the nativity of Christ unto the passing of the mother of God was forty-four years; but the whole of her life, fifty-nine years. This sum obtains if it was in fact the case42 that she was presented at the temple when she was three years old and there in the holy precincts spent eleven years. Then, by the priest’s hands was placed in the custody of Joseph, with whom she resided four months when she received the joyful announcement from the angel Gabriel. However, she gave birth to the Light of this World, the twenty-fifth day of the month of December, being fifteen years of age. Following this, she passed thirty-three years, which sum also her son completed on earth, who was even the eternal and before all ages Word. After the cross, however, at his request she dwelt in the home of John eleven years, so that of her life-time there were altogether fifty-nine years.43"
This writing is still being studied by scholars, and if it is confirmed, it would be a First Century Reference to the Birth of Christ in December.
The Evodius mentioned in the work above is mentioned here on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evodius
At any rate, there are at the least 2nd century references to Christ's Birth in December, far earlier than 336 A.D. or 354 A.D.
God Bless.
Christmas trees? Here's what Wiki says: "A Christmas tree is a decorated tree, usually an evergreen conifer, such as a spruce, pine or fir, or an artificial tree of similar appearance, associated with the celebration of Christmas.[1] The custom was further developed in early modern Germany where German Protestant Christians brought decorated trees into their homes.[2][3] It acquired popularity beyond the Lutheran areas of Germany[2][4] and the Baltic governorates during the second half of the 19th century, at first among the upper classes.
The tree was traditionally decorated with "roses made of colored paper, apples, wafers, tinsel, [and] sweetmeats".[2] Moravian Christians began to illuminate Christmas trees with candles,[5] which were often replaced by Christmas lights after the advent of electrification. Today, there is a wide variety of traditional and modern ornaments, such as garlands, baubles, tinsel, and candy canes. An angel or star might be placed at the top of the tree to represent the Angel Gabriel or the Star of Bethlehem, respectively, from the Nativity.[6][7] ...
Modern Christmas trees originated during the Renaissance in early modern Germany. Its 16th-century origins are sometimes associated with Protestant Christian reformer Martin Luther, who is said to have first added lighted candles to an evergreen tree.[14][15][16] The Christmas tree was first recorded to be used by German Lutherans in the 16th century, with records indicating that a Christmas tree was placed in the Cathedral of Strasbourg in 1539, under the leadership of the Protestant Reformer, Martin Bucer.[17][18] The Moravian Christians put lighted candles on those trees."[5][19] The earliest known firmly dated representation of a Christmas tree is on the keystone sculpture of a private home in Turckheim, Alsace (then part of Germany, today France), with the date 1576.[20]"
The tree was traditionally decorated with "roses made of colored paper, apples, wafers, tinsel, [and] sweetmeats".[2] Moravian Christians began to illuminate Christmas trees with candles,[5] which were often replaced by Christmas lights after the advent of electrification. Today, there is a wide variety of traditional and modern ornaments, such as garlands, baubles, tinsel, and candy canes. An angel or star might be placed at the top of the tree to represent the Angel Gabriel or the Star of Bethlehem, respectively, from the Nativity.[6][7] ...
Modern Christmas trees originated during the Renaissance in early modern Germany. Its 16th-century origins are sometimes associated with Protestant Christian reformer Martin Luther, who is said to have first added lighted candles to an evergreen tree.[14][15][16] The Christmas tree was first recorded to be used by German Lutherans in the 16th century, with records indicating that a Christmas tree was placed in the Cathedral of Strasbourg in 1539, under the leadership of the Protestant Reformer, Martin Bucer.[17][18] The Moravian Christians put lighted candles on those trees."[5][19] The earliest known firmly dated representation of a Christmas tree is on the keystone sculpture of a private home in Turckheim, Alsace (then part of Germany, today France), with the date 1576.[20]"
This is true for ALL of us, not one individual. He makes a lot of good points, but I think sometimes he likes to take things to the extreme... but I know a LOT of people that do that. I think he and I agree on more than we disagree on....
and I would NEVER accuse someone of being dead to grace..... that is not my call to make... it's WAY above our pay grade.
and I would NEVER accuse someone of being dead to grace..... that is not my call to make... it's WAY above our pay grade.
-
1
- Show all