Why do so many Churches teach a salvation doctrine opposed the the one Jesus taught?

[Goliath]

If the law had anything at all to do with salvation Paul would have preached the law. He did not.

You may want to read (Romans 2) before you make that statement again.
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
(Romans 2:13-15)

 

[Evmur]

You may want to read (Romans 2) before you make that statement again.
For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)
(Romans 2:13-15)

That's what I said. They will be judged ... we's passed over from judgement into life.

 

[Goliath]

That's what I said. They will be judged ... we's passed over from judgement into life.

You said Paul didn't teach the Law...I showed you that he did.

 

[Goliath]

goliath is just another judeaizer trying to make Paul contradict Christ.

seen a lot of them on here over the years.

Where did I say Paul contradicted Jesus?
I said the false teacher, uses the teachings of Paul to contradict Jesus.

 

[Evmur]

Folks have it in reverse, it's Jesus who taught the same doctrine as Paul against the general understanding of the Jews. Paul reads Christ correctly, the other Jews not so much.

Jesus taught salvation by grace alone through faith and that not of yourself.

"If any man heareth My word and believeth on Him that sent Me hath everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation but is passed from death unto life."

That is Paul's doctrine.

All who are under the law will be judged by the law ... we are passed over from judgement.

What disagreement there was is not between Christ and Paul but between Paul and the other apostles. This came to a head at Antioch when Peter who had been dining with the Gentile believers withdrew from them for fear of the pharisee disciples who [we later see in Galatians] insisted upon circumcision and obedience to Moses.

Paul withstood Peter and prevailed and later took the whole matter to Jerusalem. It was decided in Jerusalem by the whole church that the disciples were exempt from obeying Moses. Acts 15.

The matter is closed.

 

[Evmur]

You said Paul didn't teach the Law...I showed you that he did.

You did not show that any are saved by keeping the law only that they are judged by the law.

Our works and our lifestyle far exceeds the law's requirement, our works and lifestyle is according to God's own Spirit dwelling in us.

The law absolutely demands judges, there is no such ministry within the church.

This is why folks who believe in the law are always judgemental.

 

[Adstar]

I find many church doctrines are founded solely upon Paul's epistles, leaving the teachings of Jesus Christ as a mere footnote. One would think, they believe Paul is their savior, and Jesus the apostle of Paul. But worse yet, those who trust in these teachings are like blind men walking in the desert.

Paul is a great teacher...and one of my favorites, but teaching Paul without founding his teachings on what Christ taught his disciples, is like trying to teach Algebra to someone who doesn't know how to Add and Subtract. This is why the mainstream churches teach, the Christian is not under Gods Law, simply because Paul taught, "We are not under Law, we are under Grace." When it is this very Law which brings the believer their salvation.

No one is saved by the Law.. People are saved by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus which pays the penalty we all face because of the Law.. The Law brings death.. But the LORD brings life..

People who have problems with the teachings of Paul are denying His letters are the inspired Word of God..

 

[Evmur]

Where did I say Paul contradicted Jesus?
I said the false teacher, uses the teachings of Paul to contradict Jesus.

Rather I say false teachers use the teachings of Jesus to contradict Paul.

 

[Evmur]

I have read Nee, Spugeon, Henry, Wesley...and the rest. But not to turn to a different gospel than the one Christ taught his disciples. I read them, to see how they twist and mold Pauls epistles into a teaching not taught by Jesus or anyone of his disciples. I prefer a doctrine which is supported by Gods Holy Spirit, one in which the believer actually experiences Gods Grace in their life when they follow his teachings. So They don't need to simply rely my words, or anyone else's.

The false teacher is easily identified by two common errors in their teachings. One is they have no witnesses to what they say Paul is teaching. And two....every one of their salvation teachings are against or opposed to what Jesus taught. Which is an easy way for anyone to identify the teaching which come from the Anti-Christ, for that's what the prefix means...to be Opposed to.

woo some honourable names there.

 

[Runningman]

I find many church doctrines are founded solely upon Paul's epistles, leaving the teachings of Jesus Christ as a mere footnote. One would think, they believe Paul is their savior, and Jesus the apostle of Paul. But worse yet, those who trust in these teachings are like blind men walking in the desert.

Paul is a great teacher...and one of my favorites, but teaching Paul without founding his teachings on what Christ taught his disciples, is like trying to teach Algebra to someone who doesn't know how to Add and Subtract. This is why the mainstream churches teach, the Christian is not under Gods Law, simply because Paul taught, "We are not under Law, we are under Grace." When it is this very Law which brings the believer their salvation.

If someone is under the law there are harsh penalties, including death. If someone is under grace then there are chances to repent, learn, and grow. Being under grace doesn’t mean it’s a free for all to sin.

Christians are required to live holy and avoid sins listed in the law. Most people don’t seem to understand what it really means that Christ paid the penalty for their sins. He certainly didn’t intend for people to abuse God’s grace.

 

[Gideon300]

Repent is not a one and done deal. It's a spiritual struggle for a lifetime known as the sanctification process, it's like the angel and the devil on your shoulders pulling you toward opposite directions, and Paul talked about that in Galatians using Isaac and Ishmael to illustrate this struggle between the spirit and the flesh. In Jesus's words, this is the unclean spirit coming back to reclaim his old house, and oftentimes he returns with more unclean spirits. This is one aspect in Christianity that I don't feel related to very much, that how could Christians rejoice over all situations under all circumstances while suffering from this "withdrawal symptom"? You know, especially when I'm stressed and weary, in my weakest moment, that's when I face the strongest temptation of backsliding.

If you knew the full salvation that Lord Jesus offers, you would be well able to endure the temptations that we all face. For years I struggled, always seeking some kind of breakthrough, never finding one. I could not even say what a breakthrough would be.

One evening, a friend spoke to me about an aspect of salvation that I had not seen. I'd read about it and I knew what the Bible said, but I could not grasp it. Fundamentally. God has done it all perfectly for us in Christ. We really are new creations. We really do die with Christ and we really are raised together with Him. Galatians 2:20 is the truth. So is Colossians 3:3, another incredibly powerful declaration. What to we have to do to attain to this? Nothing. God does it all. When we receive Christ, all is provided. We do not realise it at the time.

Yes, there is an inner struggle, the old against the new. At first, we have little knowledge so we have to who we are in Christ. We need to know God's promises and learn to trust in His faithfulness. Our minds are programmed virtually from birth to go the world's ways. Our minds must be renewed. That is the process. You call it progressive sanctification, a Baptist term. The Bible calls it the salvation of the soul. The spirit man is new and complete in Christ. (Colossians 2:10). The soul realm (mind, emotion and will) need to be transformed. That is the work of a lifetime.

An example. About 18 months ago, I suffered a severe illness. It was pancreatitis. According to the medical profession, only childbirth is more painful. I salute the women who've endured childbirth. I was in hospital for 8 days. I could hardly pray. For the first day, I was yelling out loud, "Lord have mercy". Yet the whole time, I was at peace. I had one visitor on some days as COVID was in full swing. While the doctor was there, my friend prayed for me. The doctor, an unbeliever, told me that the prayer was answered before her eyes. I began to recover the moment my friend prayed. I was prepped for an operation and I did not eat or drink for 5 days. They eventually cancelled the operation.

For the whole time, I was at peace. I was able to witness to a couple of people, including the doctor. I found some Christian music on youtube. I was so out of it that I could not remember how to turn the volume down on my phone. The whole ward heard it! Some of the nurses were Christians and much encouraged as a result.

The worst passed in a couple of days. Meds helped of course. But I went home relieved and rejoicing.

I claim no credit for this. Like Paul, I found that God's grace was sufficient. And God's grace is just as sufficient for you.

 

[Goliath]

What disagreement there was is not between Christ and Paul but between Paul and the other apostles. This came to a head at Antioch when Peter who had been dining with the Gentile believers withdrew from them for fear of the pharisee disciples who [we later see in Galatians] insisted upon circumcision and obedience to Moses.

Paul withstood Peter and prevailed and later took the whole matter to Jerusalem. It was decided in Jerusalem by the whole church that the disciples were exempt from obeying Moses. Acts 15.

The matter is closed.

Brother...Let me clarify something...When I say Law, I am not referring to the Law of Moses. That's an old covenant God made with Moses. The Law I refer to is the new covenant, that covenant God made with us, through the sacrifice of his Son...Jesus Christ. When Paul spoke against the Law, he was directing those teachings toward the Jewish converts, who were once under the Law of Moses. Remember they were under the Law of Moses for many generation, and were afraid to leave what they knew.

 

[Evmur]

Jesus and Paul's teachings place different emphasis on different aspects of salvation and, when there are differences, many pick Paul's teachings over Jesus' teachings. Of course that is a mistake as Jesus is God and Paul is Jesus' servant/Apostle.

Paul vs. Jesus (and James) | Danizier (wordpress.com)

James was in perfect agreement with "our beloved" Paul. Acts 15.

 

[Gideon300]

If someone is under the law there are harsh penalties, including death. If someone is under grace then there are chances to repent, learn, and grow. Being under grace doesn’t mean it’s a free for all to sin.

Christians are required to live holy and avoid sins listed in the law. Most people don’t seem to understand what it really means that Christ paid the penalty for their sins. He certainly didn’t intend for people to abuse God’s grace.

If the true gospel was preached, which is rare these days, people would be born again instead of just churchgoers. Those who are born again hate sin. Romans 6 makes the point clear. Anyone who loves to sin makes me doubt the reality of their supposed conversion. Some people suffer bondages and need help to be set free. But that is not the same as loving sin.

The law is the shadow. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is the reality. Lord Jesus proclaimed the real substance of God's requirements in the Sermon on the Mount. It's way tougher than the 10 commandments. No one can keep the intent of God's law, except Christ Himself. When He is doing the living in place of us, we will be living in the way that pleases God. If we are trying to live in our own strength, we will fail.

 

[Evmur]

If someone is under the law there are harsh penalties, including death. If someone is under grace then there are chances to repent, learn, and grow. Being under grace doesn’t mean it’s a free for all to sin.

Christians are required to live holy and avoid sins listed in the law. Most people don’t seem to understand what it really means that Christ paid the penalty for their sins. He certainly didn’t intend for people to abuse God’s grace.

These are sins against grace ... a very serious matter.

 

[Gideon300]

I have read Nee, Spugeon, Henry, Wesley...and the rest. But not to turn to a different gospel than the one Christ taught his disciples. I read them, to see how they twist and mold Pauls epistles into a teaching not taught by Jesus or anyone of his disciples. I prefer a doctrine which is supported by Gods Holy Spirit, one in which the believer actually experiences Gods Grace in their life when they follow his teachings. So They don't need to simply rely my words, or anyone else's.

The false teacher is easily identified by two common errors in their teachings. One is they have no witnesses to what they say Paul is teaching. And two....every one of their salvation teachings are against or opposed to what Jesus taught. Which is an easy way for anyone to identify the teaching which come from the Anti-Christ, for that's what the prefix means...to be Opposed to.

You forget that Lord Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to lead us into the Truth. If you reject Nee, Henry and Spurgeon, you simply show that you reject the guidance of the Holy Spirit. You rely on your own interpretation according to your own, flawed intellect.

God's grace? Watchman Nee was one of the most influential Christians ever. No, not a founding apostle like Paul, but an apostle nonetheless. He and his team founded thousands of churches in China. They are still functioning in spite of great persecution.

Nee was imprisoned for his faith. He died in prison, after 20 years of hard labour. His last words demonstrated that he had not lost faith. Tell me, what have you done in Christ that qualifies you to judge the servant of another? You are the one who twists God's word to suit your own preconceived notions.

 

[Goliath]

If you knew the full salvation that Lord Jesus offers, you would be well able to endure the temptations that we all face. For years I struggled, always seeking some kind of breakthrough, never finding one. I could not even say what a breakthrough would be.

One evening, a friend spoke to me about an aspect of salvation that I had not seen. I'd read about it and I knew what the Bible said, but I could not grasp it. Fundamentally. God has done it all perfectly for us in Christ. We really are new creations. We really do die with Christ and we really are raised together with Him. Galatians 2:20 is the truth. So is Colossians 3:3, another incredibly powerful declaration. What to we have to do to attain to this? Nothing. God does it all. When we receive Christ, all is provided. We do not realise it at the time.

Yes, there is an inner struggle, the old against the new. At first, we have little knowledge so we have to who we are in Christ. We need to know God's promises and learn to trust in His faithfulness. Our minds are programmed virtually from birth to go the world's ways. Our minds must be renewed. That is the process. You call it progressive sanctification, a Baptist term. The Bible calls it the salvation of the soul. The spirit man is new and complete in Christ. (Colossians 2:10). The soul realm (mind, emotion and will) need to be transformed. That is the work of a lifetime.

An example. About 18 months ago, I suffered a severe illness. It was pancreatitis. According to the medical profession, only childbirth is more painful. I salute the women who've endured childbirth. I was in hospital for 8 days. I could hardly pray. For the first day, I was yelling out loud, "Lord have mercy". Yet the whole time, I was at peace. I had one visitor on some days as COVID was in full swing. While the doctor was there, my friend prayed for me. The doctor, an unbeliever, told me that the prayer was answered before her eyes. I began to recover the moment my friend prayed. I was prepped for an operation and I did not eat or drink for 5 days. They eventually cancelled the operation.

For the whole time, I was at peace. I was able to witness to a couple of people, including the doctor. I found some Christian music on youtube. I was so out of it that I could not remember how to turn the volume down on my phone. The whole ward heard it! Some of the nurses were Christians and much encouraged as a result.

The worst passed in a couple of days. Meds helped of course. But I went home relieved and rejoicing.

I claim no credit for this. Like Paul, I found that God's grace was sufficient. And God's grace is just as sufficient for you.

Glad everything worked out and great testimony to turn an unbeliever into a believer. Also, glad you have a righteous friend God listens to when he prays.
The Lord is far from the wicked, but he hears the prayer of the righteous.
(Proverbs 15:29)

 

[Gideon300]

I live in a small town and we have 35 Christian churches. They are full of Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers. They do not come together and worship as one, because they are divided by what they believe to be the Truth. Since there is but one Truth, if one of these churches happens to have that truth, that would mean 34 of them are false doctrines. Which of these Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors and Teachers did God place?

Good question. I detest denominations. They are not of God. I've found in my 50 years in the Lord that there is in reality very little difference between most denominations. Most people these days could care less about the beliefs of the denomination anyway. I look forward to the day when trivial differences no longer create division.

No one is perfect and no one has the whole truth - not even you, certainly not me. People grow in Christ and learn as they go through life. I am not the same person that I was 50 years ago. God's calling on my life has not changed. Some of the people you've mentioned may be self appointed and God does not acknowledge them. Some may be appointed by God, but have some doctrinal errors. If God waited until people were perfect, no one would qualify as a minister.

 

[Goliath]

You forget that Lord Jesus gave us the Holy Spirit to lead us into the Truth. If you reject Nee, Henry and Spurgeon, you simply show that you reject the guidance of the Holy Spirit. .

I admit my ignorance, for I didn't know people believed the Holy Spirit relinquished his authority and gave it to these men.

 

[Goliath]

Good question. I detest denominations. They are not of God. I've found in my 50 years in the Lord that there is in reality very little difference between most denominations. Most people these days could care less about the beliefs of the denomination anyway. I look forward to the day when trivial differences no longer create division.

No one is perfect and no one has the whole truth - not even you, certainly not me. People grow in Christ and learn as they go through life. I am not the same person that I was 50 years ago. God's calling on my life has not changed. Some of the people you've mentioned may be self appointed and God does not acknowledge them. Some may be appointed by God, but have some doctrinal errors. If God waited until people were perfect, no one would qualify as a minister.

Hmmm...not exactly untrue, since this was the case with Peter requiring circumcision. But I would highly recommend you just follow the Holy Spirit if you are still seeking the truth. Just a thought...if we are not under the Law, Why would the Holy Spirit convict us of sin, when sin is the transgression of the Law?