People spending eternity knowing that they rejected the opportunity to go to heaven would be torment. God need do nothing. The idea of torment comes from the parable of Lazarus and the rich man. There are references to great suffering for those rejected by Christ. Weeping and gnashing of teeth? Not exactly party time. So you are right about judgement. The torment is a consequence of that judgement. You are doing a bit of hair splitting.
Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?
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And even that doesn't have to be literal because the same language has been used for non-eternal things:
Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Here only the Devil is said to be tormented day and night for ever. The beast and false prophet are there but that isn't directly said to also apply to them but either way we can't assume “day and night forever and ever” is literal:
Isa 34:8 For it is the day of the LORD'S vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever.
Isaiah uses similar language concerning Edom and Edom is not still burning. This is an intentional exaggeration and should be understood in that way just as Rev 20:10 should be.
Another example:
Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
Not literally forever of course. It simply means "a long time", ie: the rest of his life, an intentional exaggeration.
Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
Sodom and Gomorrha are not still burning therefore this eternal fire does not imply the target burns eternally but that this fire exists eternally whether it has something to burn or not and since God is a consuming fire it makes sense that it is eternal because God is eternal.
The problem is with the definition of death. It does not mean the end of existence. God warned Adam that the day that he ate the forbidden fruit, he would die. That day, not nearly 1,000 years later. Adam died alright and the consequences were terrible. But annihilation was not one of them.
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You miss the point. I'm saying why people equate damnation with torment. Death is separation from God. The tormented are those who are permanently separated from God. They no longer have any hope of salvation. I'm not at all sure that the lake of fire is physical. Our God is a consuming fire. Death is fundamentally a spiritual condition. If you are alive now, you will be alive in heaven eternally. If you are dead spiritually now, then there is always the possibility of salvation. The second death ends that possibility.
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Which verse says anyone spends eternity in hell?
That story doesn't even mention eternal torment.
John 5:29 isn't talking about eternal torment though. The dead are resurrected to be judged. Fast forward to Revelation 20's GWTJ passage. The resurrecton of the dead results in their second death upon being cast into the LOF.
The are resurrected to judgment and their judgment is death. It doesn't say their judgment is eternal torment.
That story doesn't even mention eternal torment.
John 5:29 isn't talking about eternal torment though. The dead are resurrected to be judged. Fast forward to Revelation 20's GWTJ passage. The resurrecton of the dead results in their second death upon being cast into the LOF.
The are resurrected to judgment and their judgment is death. It doesn't say their judgment is eternal torment.
"If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest: (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec: ) By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death: But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood." - Hebrews 7:11-24 KJV
What is the second death, though?
We know that when God told Adam that he would die in the day he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.... He didn't lie, Adam did die that day...spiritually. This was not a physical death, but a spiritual death.
We are also going to die physically.
So what is the second death?
If it is something spiritual like we can't even imagine the things God has prepared for those that love him....Then we probably can't imagine the damnation and eternal punishment that exists for those that don't love him, either. All I know is, that it does say eternal damnation and eternal punishment.
We know that when God told Adam that he would die in the day he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.... He didn't lie, Adam did die that day...spiritually. This was not a physical death, but a spiritual death.
We are also going to die physically.
So what is the second death?
If it is something spiritual like we can't even imagine the things God has prepared for those that love him....Then we probably can't imagine the damnation and eternal punishment that exists for those that don't love him, either. All I know is, that it does say eternal damnation and eternal punishment.
Revelation 20:12-13 (NASB) And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Separated from God the 2nd time.
Separated from God the 2nd time.
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Ok so the first problem with your request for people not to use scripture is an anathema, we are commanded to use scripture to test theology, so before engaging in any journey for truth be as the Bereans, Acts 17:11 now that’s out of the way,
You say the God you know! Unfortunately unless you live within God and he indwells you, you don’t actually know him at all, yet you say your saved so then all you need do is lean upon the Holy Spirits understanding instead of your own, your foundational premise is flawed unless we’re Spirit led not Soul led, you are correct tho in your belief that God does not plan to torment people who reject him, his predisposition is that you choose him as a way to avoid the torment, when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus he quoted from the book of numbers, specifically the incident were Moses asked God to end the judgment that saw the Israelites drying from snakebites because of their ungratefulness, God went on to tell Moses that he would not remove the Judgment, but would instead offer them
A way out of it, so Moses constructed a bronze snake and lifted it up on a wooden pole, the Israelites who got bitten could then look upon the symbol and would be redeemed from their death sentence, Jesus when on to say that in the same way the snake was lifted up as a way to escape Gods judgment so would the Son of Man be lifted up, Jesus was illustrating that He was the symbol, the way for humanity to escape death, you should be able then to infer from this explanation that all of humanity is predestined to receive Gods judgment and wrath, our punishment therefore is just and definite, unless we choose to accept Jesus as our way out, it’s far more complicated than this but I’m trying to be concise if a little simplistic. You call God a wonderful and loving God and so he is, but God is not Love, God is Holy, Love is an expression of Gods Holiness but so is his hatred of Sin for Sin is in direct opposition to His Holiness. (not everyone is going to agree with me on that point lol but hey ho!) You also talk of mercy, a lot of people associate both Mercy and Grace as the same thing but there not, there very different,
Grace = Is Getting something we don’t deserve.
Mercy = Is not Getting what we do deserve.
So we are saved by Grace yet this doesn’t remove our need for Mercy “For no one is good not one” so yes judgment for all on the day of the Lord, but to truly answer your real question which is why would a loving God send someone to Hell, the answer is this “ God will not force anyone against there will to live with him for eternity” the problem is that there is only one alternative, so we should choose wisely and live accordingly to avoid future disappointment. 🙂
You say the God you know! Unfortunately unless you live within God and he indwells you, you don’t actually know him at all, yet you say your saved so then all you need do is lean upon the Holy Spirits understanding instead of your own, your foundational premise is flawed unless we’re Spirit led not Soul led, you are correct tho in your belief that God does not plan to torment people who reject him, his predisposition is that you choose him as a way to avoid the torment, when Jesus was talking to Nicodemus he quoted from the book of numbers, specifically the incident were Moses asked God to end the judgment that saw the Israelites drying from snakebites because of their ungratefulness, God went on to tell Moses that he would not remove the Judgment, but would instead offer them
A way out of it, so Moses constructed a bronze snake and lifted it up on a wooden pole, the Israelites who got bitten could then look upon the symbol and would be redeemed from their death sentence, Jesus when on to say that in the same way the snake was lifted up as a way to escape Gods judgment so would the Son of Man be lifted up, Jesus was illustrating that He was the symbol, the way for humanity to escape death, you should be able then to infer from this explanation that all of humanity is predestined to receive Gods judgment and wrath, our punishment therefore is just and definite, unless we choose to accept Jesus as our way out, it’s far more complicated than this but I’m trying to be concise if a little simplistic. You call God a wonderful and loving God and so he is, but God is not Love, God is Holy, Love is an expression of Gods Holiness but so is his hatred of Sin for Sin is in direct opposition to His Holiness. (not everyone is going to agree with me on that point lol but hey ho!) You also talk of mercy, a lot of people associate both Mercy and Grace as the same thing but there not, there very different,
Grace = Is Getting something we don’t deserve.
Mercy = Is not Getting what we do deserve.
So we are saved by Grace yet this doesn’t remove our need for Mercy “For no one is good not one” so yes judgment for all on the day of the Lord, but to truly answer your real question which is why would a loving God send someone to Hell, the answer is this “ God will not force anyone against there will to live with him for eternity” the problem is that there is only one alternative, so we should choose wisely and live accordingly to avoid future disappointment. 🙂
Guess, I should be more specific. I know when it occurs. But what does the second death mean? What is the second death? We know from scripture that when we die our body goes back to the ground and our spirit returns to the Lord who gave it. In other words the body and spirit split when we die. The body is just a vessel for the spirit. The body does decay and ceases to exist, but I've never saw anything in scripture about the spirit ceasing to exist after death. After the fall of Adam we all became spiritually dead- that meant we were separated from God because of sin. But I've never read in scripture where the spirit actually ceases to exist.
So if the spirit never ceases to exist in death then it makes sense that it could go on in eternal damnation and punishment forever.
So if the spirit never ceases to exist in death then it makes sense that it could go on in eternal damnation and punishment forever.
