Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

Magenta · Aug 2, 2021

I believe that life is a gift. To remain dead forever is obviously an everlasting
punishment. Even the oldest Bible book attests to the fact that the wicked
return to the grave following the day of wrath (otherwise known as judgement).

Job 21:30-32 (KJV)
That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to
the day of wrath. Who shall declare his way to his face? and who shall repay him what
he hath done? Yet shall he be brought to the grave, and shall remain in the tomb.

Scripture PLAINLY states that the mortal (that applies to every human who has
ever lived) puts on the immortal (that refers only to those who are found in Christ
Jesus) at the end of the age. Nowhere does Scripture state that the soul of man
lives forever, that those who are not found in Christ survive in order to be tortured
ever after. It is a fanciful fabrication straight from the pit of hell. In fact, God prevented
Adam and Eve from eating from the Tree of life after they sinned, because He did not
want them to live forever in their state of sin. God does not change.

1 Cor 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality,
then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

God has said from the beginning, in Genesis, before man sinned, that
DEATH would be the consequence, of sin. I believe what God said

1 Tim 6:15-16 plainly states that only God has immortality, and the rest
of Scriptures make plain that it is by faith alone in Christ alone that one
attains to life ever after. That means that Scripture means what it says:
those not in Christ will pass into the second death, as is explicitly stated.
They shall be utterly destroyed, and pass into the non-being of nothingness.
The dead know nothing. Scripture plainly states that also.

There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy.

Luke 19:27 Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king
over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.

God even explicitly says that the idea of burning people never entered
His mind. He sees it as wickedness, and yet people promote it.

One of the most famous, oft' quoted Scriptures states that God so loved
the world that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish... PERISH.

Word number 622 in Strong's concordance.

apollumi: to destroy, destroy utterly

Original Word: ἀπόλλυμι
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: apollumi

Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ol'-loo-mee)
Short Definition: I destroy, lose, am perishing

Definition: (a) I kill, destroy, (b) I lose, mid: I am perishing
(the resultant death being viewed as certain).HELPS Word-studies

622 apóllymi (from 575 /apó, "away from," which intensifies ollymi, "to destroy")
– properly, fully destroy, cutting off entirely (note the force of the prefix, 575 /apó).

Strong's Greek: 622. ἀπόλλυμι (apollumi) -- to destroy, destroy utterly

622 /apóllymi ("violently/completely perish") implies permanent (absolute) destruction, i.e. to cancel out (remove); "to die, with the implication of ruin and destruction" (L & N, 1, 23.106); cause to be lost (utterly perish) by experiencing a miserable end.

Word Origin
from apo and same as olethros
Definition
to destroy, destroy utterly

God is love. Thank you, God, for your love for us is so great, that
You made a way for us to live with You forever, through the propitiatory
sacrifice of Your precious Son on the cross out of His great love for us.

TheLearner · Aug 2, 2021

Magenta said:

smile, The early church fathers were just Christians and were taught by the Apostles themselves.
If you study the leaders of Reformation, you will find they quoted and read the church fathers as authoritative for historical theology. Friend, you need to read the history before jumping to poor conclusions.

Here is just one quote of the early church fathers that the reformers likely used:

Chapter 17.— The Faith that He Kept Was the Free Gift of God.

His last clause runs thus: I have kept the faith. But he who says this is the same who declares in another passage, I have obtained mercy that I might be faithful. 1 Corinthians 7:25 He does not say, I obtained mercy because I was faithful, but in order that I might be faithful, thus showing that even faith itself cannot be had without God's mercy, and that it is the gift of God. This he very expressly teaches us when he says, For by grace are you saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8 They might possibly say, We received grace because we believed; as if they would attribute the faith to themselves, and the grace to God. Therefore, the apostle having said, You are saved through faith, added, And that not of yourselves, but it is the gift of God. And again, lest they should say they deserved so great a gift by their works, he immediately added, Not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:9 Not that he denied good works, or emptied them of their value, when he says that God renders to every man according to his works; Romans 2:6 but because works proceed from faith, and not faith from works. Therefore it is from Him that we have works of righteousness, from whom comes also faith itself, concerning which it is written, The just shall live by faith. Habakkuk 2:4"
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1510.htm

TheLearner · Aug 2, 2021

And yet, Magenta those who ignore history are often falling into false teachings. or are you just being emotional without knowledge?

Magenta · Aug 2, 2021

The Bible does frequently use the image of eternal fire in order to represent God's anger
with sin, which will result in the total destruction of the sinner in the grave. Sodom was
punished with "eternal fire" (Jude v. 7), i.e. it was totally destroyed due to the wickedness
of the inhabitants. Today that city is in ruins, submerged beneath the waters of the Dead
Sea; in no way is it now on fire, which is necessary if we are to understand 'eternal fire' literally.

Likewise Jerusalem was threatened with the eternal fire of God's anger, due to the sins of Israel:
"Then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it
shall not be quenched" (Jer. 17:27). Jerusalem being the prophesied capital of the future Kingdom
(Is. 2:2-4; Ps. 48:2), God did not mean us to read this literally. The great houses of Jerusalem were
burnt down with fire (2 Kings 25:9), but that fire did not continue eternally.

Similarly, God punished the land of Idumea with fire that would "not be quenched night nor day;
the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste...the owl
and the raven shall dwell in it...thorns shall come up in her palaces" (Is. 34:9-15). Seeing that
animals and plants were to exist in the ruined land of Idumea, the language of eternal fire must
refer to God's anger and His total destruction of the place, rather than being taken literally.

The Hebrew and Greek phrases which are translated "for ever" mean strictly, "for the age".
Sometimes this refers to literal infinity, for example the age of the kingdom, but not always.
Ez. 32:14,15 is an example: "The forts and towers shall be dens for ever... until the spirit be
poured upon us". This is one way of understanding the 'eternity' of 'eternal fire'.

Time and again God's anger with the sins of Jerusalem and Israel is likened to fire:
"Mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place (Jerusalem)...it shall burn,
and shall not be quenched" (Jer. 7:20; other examples include Lam. 4:11 and 2 Kings 22:17).

Fire is also associated with God's judgment of sin, especially at the return of Christ:
"For, behold, the day cometh that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and
all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up"
(Mal. 4:1). When stubble, or even a human body, is burnt by fire, it returns to dust.

Malachi 4:3
Then you will trample on the wicked; they will be ashes under
the soles of your feet on the day when I act," says the LORD Almighty.

It should be noted that "hell" is "cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:14). This indicates that
hell is not the same as "the lake of fire"; this represents complete destruction. In the
symbolic manner of the book of Revelation, we are being told that the grave is to be totally
destroyed, because at the end of the Millennium there will be no more death.

Magenta · Aug 2, 2021

TheLearner said:

And the apostles themselves were known to fall into error as well as finding the need to battle error among the first century church.

So tooting that horn does nothing to convince me.

Besides which, the Catholic church is a big fat liar.

Runningman · Aug 2, 2021

TheLearner said:

If God wants the wicked gone forever then their body dying doesn't achieve that goal. Destroying soul and body achieves God's stated desires in the scriptures you quoted. I think it's much more than physical, but also spiritual death.

It's obvious it isn't referring to a physical death. If everyone who sinned died, immediately, there'd be no one left.

Sin = death
Hell = death
Righteousness in Christ = life
Heaven = life

Romans 6:23
23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Colossians 2:13
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Ephesians 2:1
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins

1 John 5:12
12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

There is no living eternally in hell.

The Easy-To-Read Version omitts an important word from Matthew 7:13, "destruction." I don't think the ETRV is a reliable version.

Matt. 7:13 (KJV)✅
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Matt. 7:13 (ETRV)❌
13 “You can enter true life only through the narrow gate. The gate to hell is very wide, and there is plenty of room on the road that leads there. Many people go that way.

Jesus Christ is the road that leads to eternal life. All other roads lead to complete destruction.

BrokenSparrow · Aug 2, 2021

tourist said:

Yes, I guess it could be their disease.

It doesn't seem to be referring to just a literal worm.

I've always heard that it meant that the person would never cease from existence and the fire would never end.

After looking into it, seems there are many different opinions on it, though.

Magenta · Aug 2, 2021

The lost perish and are no more. They go to the second death, never to return.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran),
but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

^^ phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption,
destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved
for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.

Jesus Christ has already overcome death

Revelation 1:18

TheLearner · Aug 2, 2021

Magenta said:

No one taught conditional mortally until the early 1800's sources quoted from the early centuries are taken out of context.

There were a handful of books from maybe around 1770 that may could be read as teaching your position.

Philosophers held various positions thru the years. You need to prove using sound historical research which is lacking bady among those in your camp. Show me for example a church father quoting plato or was a student of him.

Taking a church father out of context and claiming it was from plato will not work.

I have read all 38 volumes of the church fathers and I have many of the great philosophers. There is no indications that the philosophers were teachers to the fathers. There is indications that the fathers were taught by the apostles.

Go to newadvent.org and see if you can find any quotes from the philosophers in the church fathers besides the few that the NT quotes.

"
#1 and #2. Acts 17:27-28: “That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.“

This verse actually contains two quotations. The first quotation comes from The Kretika by the Greek poet and mystic Epimenides of Knossos. The second quotation comes from line five of the didactic poem Phainomena by the Stoic philosopher Aratos of Soloi.

#3. Acts 26:14: “And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.”

This unusual phrase is a direct quote from line 1624 of the Greek tragedy Agamemnon by Aischylos.

#4. 1 Corinthians 15:33: “Be not deceived: evil communications corrupt good manners.”

This saying is directly quoted from the comedy Thais by the Athenian comic playwright Menandros. Menandros, however, seems to have actually gotten the quote from the tragedy Aiolos by Euripides.
The apostle Paul seems to have enjoyed, or at least had extensive knowledge of, classical drama, judging by the fact that he quotes from at least two different classical playwrights.

#5. Titus 1:12: “One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.”

This quote comes from the Kretan poet Epimenides of Knossos. This quote, like the one found in Acts 17:28, comes from The Kretika. In fact, it seems to come from the exact same passage. Epimenides is not mentioned by name in either of the places where he is quoted and The Kretika has, sadly, not survived. The only reason we know that these passages are quoted from him is because ancient commentators who had access to Epimenides’s writings made note of this fact.

Based on these two quotations, we can reconstruct the passage as a refutation of the widely held Kretan belief that Zeus was a mortal king of Krete and that he died there and was buried. This belief is also referenced by the early mythographer Euhemeros (whom you may remember from my previous article “The Original Myth-Busters”).

The authors of the New Testament must have either really admired Epimenides or at least seen him as a useful figure to establish good relations with the pagans because he is quoted, not once, but twice in the New Testament, and in different books no less, making him the most quoted non-Jewish writer in the entire Bible. It is also interesting that this passage directly refers to Epimenides as a “prophet,” which makes him one of a small handful of non-Jewish persons to be explicitly referred to as a prophet.

In addition to these five direct quotes, there are also passages, particularly in Paul’s letters, where Christian teachings are explained using concepts from Greek philosophy. For instance, Paul’s famous description of the body having many parts with different functions in 1 Corinthians 12 may have been partly inspired by a similar image conjured up in Platon’s Protagoras 349c, in which Sokrates uses the example of how the different parts of the face all perform very different functions from each other and from the function of the whole and yet, through the combination of all the different parts working together in harmony, they each contribute to the function of the whole."
https://talesoftimesforgotten.com/2017/03/09/greek-writers-quoted-in-the-new-testament/

If you are interested in the many hellenistic influences on the NT borrow a copy of
Hellenistic Commentary to the New Testament Paperback by M. Eugene Boring (Author)

"This book, the product of collaboration between German and American New Testament scholarship, is the most complete collection of Hellenistic texts correlated to the New Testament available in English. "
https://www.amazon.com/Hellenistic-Commentary-Testament-Eugene-Boring/dp/0687009162

TheLearner · Aug 2, 2021

Magenta said:

The lost perish and are no more. They go to the second death, never to return.

Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad
that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.

Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul;
but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the Greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which
means to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish, make void.

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those
in the days of Noah (Luke 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all"
(not tortured). And it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29)
"destroyed them" (not tortured).

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that
whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So a person either receives eternal life, or they perish. Nothing about eternal torment there.

John 5:24, Jesus said
"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me
has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life."

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him,
for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

Galatians 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran),
but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.

^^ phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption,
destroy, perish. The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from
the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruination, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction,
but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

James 1:15b
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.

James 4:12a
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;

2 Peter 3:7
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved
for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:

Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

Psalm 37:28b
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

Ecclesiastes 9:5
the dead know nothing

Following the resurrection and judgement of all is when the mortal put on the
immortal, not before. Then too shall the corruptible put on the incorruptible.
See 1 Corinthians 15:54~ Death will be swallowed up in victory.

Jesus Christ has already overcome death

Revelation 1:18

Now post the chapter of each of your proof texts for context. I already answered some and the context was about physical death from this earth.

TheLearner · Aug 2, 2021

Magenta said:

James 2:26 defines death as separation. Physical death is simply separation of body and soul-spirit. Spiritual death is separation forever from God.

Matthew 7:23
But I will tell them, “I will have nothing to do with you! Get out of my sight, you evil people!”

Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Magenta · Aug 2, 2021

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient
toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
If you are not alive you cannot be tormented!

Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after
saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

Revelation 2:11b
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second
death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us: the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name is not in
the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death.

Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and
idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

People spiritualize this and say, oh but dead means alive!

All these verses can be provided and what is given in a paltry attempt to dispute it is
a couple of verses from a highly symbolic apocalyptic book, and a stubborn refusal to
accept that Jesus taught in parables even though Scripture explicitly states such.

After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever in their state of sin. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

Ezekiel 18:4
The soul who sins will die.

Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

Magenta · Aug 2, 2021

TheLearner said:

Scriptures teach that life is in Christ alone. That is thousands of years of teaching.

TheLearner · Aug 2, 2021

Runningman said:

Revelation 20
Easy-to-Read Version
The 1000 Years
20 I saw an angel coming down out of heaven. The angel had the key to the bottomless pit. The angel also held a large chain in his hand. 2 The angel grabbed the dragon, that old snake, also known as the devil or Satan. The angel tied the dragon with the chain for 1000 years. 3 Then the angel threw the dragon into the bottomless pit and closed it. The angel locked it over the dragon. The angel did this so that the dragon could not trick the people of the earth until the 1000 years were ended. After 1000 years the dragon must be made free for a short time.

4 Then I saw some thrones and people sitting on them. These were the ones who had been given the power to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been killed because they were faithful to the truth of Jesus and the message from God. They did not worship the beast or its idol. They did not receive the mark of the beast on their foreheads or on their hands. They came back to life and ruled with Christ for 1000 years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not live again until the 1000 years were ended.)

This is the first resurrection. 6 Great blessings belong to those who share in this first resurrection. They are God’s holy people. The second death has no power over them. They will be priests for God and for Christ. They will rule with him for 1000 years.

The Defeat of Satan
7 When the 1000 years are ended, Satan will be made free from his prison. 8 He will go out to trick the nations in all the earth, the nations known as Gog and Magog. Satan will gather the people for battle. There will be more people than anyone can count, like sand on the seashore.

9 I saw Satan’s army march across the earth and gather around the camp of God’s people and the city that God loves. But fire came down from heaven and destroyed Satan’s army. 10 And he (the one who tricked these people) was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur with the beast and the false prophet. There they would be tortured day and night forever and ever.

People of the World Are Judged
11 Then I saw a large white throne. I saw the one who was sitting on the throne. Earth and sky ran away from him and disappeared. 12 And I saw those who had died, great and small, standing before the throne. Some books were opened. And another book was opened—the book of life. The people were judged by what they had done, which is written in the books.

13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. All these people were judged by what they had done. 14 And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death. 15 And anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

Magenta · Aug 2, 2021

TheLearner said:

Are you telling me what to do???

Oy, no, you are not my boss.

The context is this: life is found in Christ alone.

Disagree all you like.

You will not convince me that Scripture teaches otherwise.

ewq1938 · Aug 2, 2021

TheLearner said:

Eternal torture is not just. Destroying someone completely without torture is just and is what we find in scripture:

John_3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life ; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

"shall not see life" means will not be alive.

Universalism -all people (saved and unsaved) will see life in the New Heaven and new Earth for all eternity
Eternal torment -all unsaved people will see life in torment (lake of fire) for all eternity
Annihilationism - all unsaved people will not see life as Christ said.

Only Annihilation matches what Christ taught in John_3:36.

TheLearner · Aug 2, 2021

Revelation 21
King James Version
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife.

10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;

12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.

14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass.

19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald;

20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.

22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.

26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

ewq1938 · Aug 2, 2021

TheLearner said:

That's false.

Mar_3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

damnation:

G2920
κρίσις
krisis
kree'-sis
(Subjectively or objectively, for or against); by extension a tribunal; by implication justice (specifically divine law): - accusation, condemnation, damnation, judgment.
Total KJV occurrences: 48

Eternal damnation is another way to say eternal judgment which is a decision made by a court or Judge etc. It does not mean torment or torture. To understand what punishment was decided all we have to do is find out what the judgment is for the unsaved:

Rev_20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Rev_20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The second death is the eternal judgment making it an eternal death. Eternal torment doctrine teaches the opposite so the unsaved are eternally alive and being tortured when the scripture say the unsaved will be dead for all eternity.

Magenta · Aug 2, 2021

TheLearner said:

Exactly: death. The dead know nothing. This does at least finally seem to be
an acknowledgment on your part, that the final punishment is about death.

TheLearner · Aug 2, 2021

Magenta said:

It was a suggestion, you are not a child right?

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

I have been a Teacher of Kindergarten through Universities most of my life. So, I am accustomed to giving asignments.

Context Matters.

Revelation 14:10
The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Make a list of all those who are in the lake of fire. And, how long will they be tortured.

Why do Christians believe in a place of torment called Hell?

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