Why a multitude of spiritual gifts are ignored
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Really? What did they communicate?
We know at Pentecost Peter preached Christ as Savior and many were saved. Peter was heard and understood by those present in their native language. Where else do we have a record of what was said? Peter further explained that what took place that Pentecost was a partial fulfilment of Joel.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
We know at Pentecost Peter preached Christ as Savior and many were saved. Peter was heard and understood by those present in their native language. Where else do we have a record of what was said? Peter further explained that what took place that Pentecost was a partial fulfilment of Joel.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
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I musty add some substance to your reply.
Matthew 13:53-58 (KJV)
53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
They had all the typical excuses. Jesus found more faith alive among Roman army officers. That problem remains active today in most churches in America. Discard your unbelief! Many today reject any sermons concerning blood.
Why wouldn't God desire the spiritual gifts to awaken modern skeptics? What reason would you give for God to withhold life in Heaven from life on earth? I will avoid charging God with cruelty, of holding back any blessing for the faithful in Christ. The issue is too many Christians not living by faith. Which society is most deficient? The Jews who witnessed Jesus on earth, or modern Americans? Which does not need to witness miracles more to believe? I think modern folks need those signs far more per capita. Out of a few million the Lord harvested 3000 believers at Pentecost alone. That's a statistical miracle exceeding our times.
Matthew 13:53-58 (KJV)
53 And it came to pass, that when Jesus had finished these parables, he departed thence.
54 And when he was come into his own country, he taught them in their synagogue, insomuch that they were astonished, and said, Whence hath this man this wisdom, and these mighty works?
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?
56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
57 And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house.
58 And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.
They had all the typical excuses. Jesus found more faith alive among Roman army officers. That problem remains active today in most churches in America. Discard your unbelief! Many today reject any sermons concerning blood.
Why wouldn't God desire the spiritual gifts to awaken modern skeptics? What reason would you give for God to withhold life in Heaven from life on earth? I will avoid charging God with cruelty, of holding back any blessing for the faithful in Christ. The issue is too many Christians not living by faith. Which society is most deficient? The Jews who witnessed Jesus on earth, or modern Americans? Which does not need to witness miracles more to believe? I think modern folks need those signs far more per capita. Out of a few million the Lord harvested 3000 believers at Pentecost alone. That's a statistical miracle exceeding our times.
I agree with most of what you wrote. Why? Because he's going to make a new heaven and a new earth, perhaps? As I implied on another post, if this world was supposed to be like heaven-then why would God make a new one? If a lack of faith is the issue, then the dead wouldn't have ever been raised, because I don't think the dead have any faith.
As a Native American, I was turned away from Christianity for years because of nonsense i'd seen in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, none of which had any support in the bible. Many Natives are Mormons or JWs, today. Why? Because those to groups were actually out witnessing to people-instead of trying to wow each other with sign gifts.
I'm all for sign gifts today, just don't think that they are for today. I'd love to be proven wrong.
As a Native American, I was turned away from Christianity for years because of nonsense i'd seen in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches, none of which had any support in the bible. Many Natives are Mormons or JWs, today. Why? Because those to groups were actually out witnessing to people-instead of trying to wow each other with sign gifts.
I'm all for sign gifts today, just don't think that they are for today. I'd love to be proven wrong.
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Please cite a long list of "all the time" healings by faith. Where does scripture promise a minimum of one "healer"? The Holy Spirit assigns gifts, but for anyone to exercise that gift will require faith in that person to operate in it, as well as faith in a congregation to receive healing by faith. None of us should expect to force healing miracles above what Jesus was willing or able to perform.
You judge people submitting to exercise of spiritual gifts as "charlatans"? I suppose you are critical of preachers, evangelists, etc. too?
People should start looking at the gift list, and praying God will show them their gift, so they can walk in it. I figured out my husband's gift was "helps!" I got him on the building committee, and he exercises the gift all the time with our church, with family and neighbours. What a blessing he isn't sitting around all day babbling in fake tongues, but actually doing something, quietly, for the kingdom of God!
I have some of those gifts, not going to fight about it! This is not about me! However, I seem to be doing a lot of exhorting lately. One on one. It never hit me till I looked at the list.
Of course, I don't agree with 2 small things you said, but they are so small, and I want to focus on the big picture. The Bible is SO clear that tongues was a sign of the birth of the church. A sign accompanied by flames of fire and a rushing wind. A great day, an amazing day! But finished a long time ago!
Thanks for starting this thread! I know some will not like it, as we have seen. But the truth has to be made known![/QUOTE]
So you have attended enough pentecostal church services to be an expert on judging them? I have attended many and find most do not put a focus on the gift of tongues. Most I know of actually preach the blood, body, death and resurrection of Christ, and always observe the Last Supper communion as commanded by Jesus. I rarely enjoy that observance in typical mainline no0n-pentecostal/charismatic worship services. They might observe once a month or year.
So you prefer a heavily edited version that deletes pertinent facts that lead folks to Christ? This is similar to the Thomas Jefferson "Jefferson Bible" version that left out miracles and other supernatural facts.
You judge people submitting to exercise of spiritual gifts as "charlatans"? I suppose you are critical of preachers, evangelists, etc. too?
People should start looking at the gift list, and praying God will show them their gift, so they can walk in it. I figured out my husband's gift was "helps!" I got him on the building committee, and he exercises the gift all the time with our church, with family and neighbours. What a blessing he isn't sitting around all day babbling in fake tongues, but actually doing something, quietly, for the kingdom of God!
I have some of those gifts, not going to fight about it! This is not about me! However, I seem to be doing a lot of exhorting lately. One on one. It never hit me till I looked at the list.
Of course, I don't agree with 2 small things you said, but they are so small, and I want to focus on the big picture. The Bible is SO clear that tongues was a sign of the birth of the church. A sign accompanied by flames of fire and a rushing wind. A great day, an amazing day! But finished a long time ago!
Thanks for starting this thread! I know some will not like it, as we have seen. But the truth has to be made known![/QUOTE]
So you have attended enough pentecostal church services to be an expert on judging them? I have attended many and find most do not put a focus on the gift of tongues. Most I know of actually preach the blood, body, death and resurrection of Christ, and always observe the Last Supper communion as commanded by Jesus. I rarely enjoy that observance in typical mainline no0n-pentecostal/charismatic worship services. They might observe once a month or year.
So you prefer a heavily edited version that deletes pertinent facts that lead folks to Christ? This is similar to the Thomas Jefferson "Jefferson Bible" version that left out miracles and other supernatural facts.
Why would you suppose God would need to make His Heaven new? Would you suppose God made mistakes the first attempt? Jesus promised to make us mansions in the present Heaven. Do you suppose He was wrong, needed an update once He returned there?
Earth will be cleansed of all signs of evil, and our first heaven, the atmosphere, will be healed. Lots of changes to come, like eliminating oceans. But the true Temple that God has enjoyed in Heaven, the model of the old Tabernacle, eliminated, along with the laver of Jesus' blood there? No. Why would God want to destroy what He created and called "good"? A true native American Christian ought to know what is precious to God. Why would you allow cults or any "denomination" to distort your faith in God and His creation? So some of yours went after false religion. They do what ancient Jews did while they had Jesus the Christ among them.
Earth will be cleansed of all signs of evil, and our first heaven, the atmosphere, will be healed. Lots of changes to come, like eliminating oceans. But the true Temple that God has enjoyed in Heaven, the model of the old Tabernacle, eliminated, along with the laver of Jesus' blood there? No. Why would God want to destroy what He created and called "good"? A true native American Christian ought to know what is precious to God. Why would you allow cults or any "denomination" to distort your faith in God and His creation? So some of yours went after false religion. They do what ancient Jews did while they had Jesus the Christ among them.
I don't mean to bicker, but your statement appears to contradict the plain text. Unless of course you see "unbelief" as something other than "lack of faith". I agree: the dead cannot exercise faith, but the living can. When Jesus healed in Matthew 9:52 and Mark 10:22, He said, "Your faith has healed you," not "My faith has healed you."
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1 Corinthians 14:21-25 (KJV)
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
Many unbelievers have been awakened upon hearing a message in tongues, as happened at Pentecost via Peter, a fisherman by trade, who was "unlearned". Few Jews knew more language than Aramaic and Greek koine, and some "low" Hebraic which was altered by many languages that resulted in many dialects that came about by infiltration of many foreigners in their history. "High Hebrew" was known to educated Jews, the clergy. There was no way Peter could have delivered one sermon in one dialect understood by thousands in their own dialects native to people in many surrounding nations, other than by miracle of unknown tongues. The Holy Spirit is able to interpret for every hearer, but also enables a speaker's tongue. Those thousands who did believe wee among those who assembled afterwards, their needs met in wonderful ways.
In modern times there are testimonies of similar experiences. Soon after leaving the So. Baptists for a charismatic church I was asked to preach a Father's Day sermon for our pastor who would be absent to join his family in Alaska. I had never preached before a large group like those 450 people that day. I was accustomed to a Sunday School class of about 25 over the years. Upon calling somewhat clumsily for an "altar call" for people to come and publicly confess Jesus, a very "different" couple came down among a dozen others. They were from U.A.E., an Arab nation. The wife new a little English, explaining that her very Muslim husband wishes to become a Christian. He told her he finally understood Christianity, though could not "hear" (comprehend) me. His claimed knowledge was unrelated to my sermon, insisting I explained it all concisely. There had been one short message by a lady speaking in tongues during praise and worship earlier, which seemed unnecessary. I didn't know enough about tongues to regard it. The Muslim spoke to his wife, and she also confessed Christ, then spoke to us in Aramaic with joy. We didn't get anything from that except to see their joy, which spread through the congregation. I was and remain believing it was an experience like Peter's sermon being understood in every dialect of all hearers. That was 23 years ago, and that hasn't happened again for me, not being a regular preacher.
I've witnessed similar events since then, though I've only known of one other Muslim, and one Buddhist visiting, while salvation has happened for people understanding English. I pay more attention now and have more knowledge, and realize none of that is needed for foreigners, but is definitely effective for lost people resisting, refusing to understand the gospel directly. Lately we are seeing drug addicts coming forward embracing Jesus, once in a business meeting begun with prayer, a message in tongues, and praise, with no preaching.
It just does no good to condemn whatever means the Lord uses to reach souls. Many a soul surely meets with a tiny slice of time in which to receive Jesus. Why be numbered among complainers? God loves every complainer, but hates complaining.
Believe the Bible, not some media video making fun of Christianity.
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
Many unbelievers have been awakened upon hearing a message in tongues, as happened at Pentecost via Peter, a fisherman by trade, who was "unlearned". Few Jews knew more language than Aramaic and Greek koine, and some "low" Hebraic which was altered by many languages that resulted in many dialects that came about by infiltration of many foreigners in their history. "High Hebrew" was known to educated Jews, the clergy. There was no way Peter could have delivered one sermon in one dialect understood by thousands in their own dialects native to people in many surrounding nations, other than by miracle of unknown tongues. The Holy Spirit is able to interpret for every hearer, but also enables a speaker's tongue. Those thousands who did believe wee among those who assembled afterwards, their needs met in wonderful ways.
In modern times there are testimonies of similar experiences. Soon after leaving the So. Baptists for a charismatic church I was asked to preach a Father's Day sermon for our pastor who would be absent to join his family in Alaska. I had never preached before a large group like those 450 people that day. I was accustomed to a Sunday School class of about 25 over the years. Upon calling somewhat clumsily for an "altar call" for people to come and publicly confess Jesus, a very "different" couple came down among a dozen others. They were from U.A.E., an Arab nation. The wife new a little English, explaining that her very Muslim husband wishes to become a Christian. He told her he finally understood Christianity, though could not "hear" (comprehend) me. His claimed knowledge was unrelated to my sermon, insisting I explained it all concisely. There had been one short message by a lady speaking in tongues during praise and worship earlier, which seemed unnecessary. I didn't know enough about tongues to regard it. The Muslim spoke to his wife, and she also confessed Christ, then spoke to us in Aramaic with joy. We didn't get anything from that except to see their joy, which spread through the congregation. I was and remain believing it was an experience like Peter's sermon being understood in every dialect of all hearers. That was 23 years ago, and that hasn't happened again for me, not being a regular preacher.
I've witnessed similar events since then, though I've only known of one other Muslim, and one Buddhist visiting, while salvation has happened for people understanding English. I pay more attention now and have more knowledge, and realize none of that is needed for foreigners, but is definitely effective for lost people resisting, refusing to understand the gospel directly. Lately we are seeing drug addicts coming forward embracing Jesus, once in a business meeting begun with prayer, a message in tongues, and praise, with no preaching.
It just does no good to condemn whatever means the Lord uses to reach souls. Many a soul surely meets with a tiny slice of time in which to receive Jesus. Why be numbered among complainers? God loves every complainer, but hates complaining.
Believe the Bible, not some media video making fun of Christianity.
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If God decided to heal everyone with or without faith we'd all get away with not living by faith, not concerned with pleasing God. Well, living by faith is the only way to please God. Where is faith in you, sir? We all come to Christ by the dame faith. The same faith opens up healing in Christ. Assuming you were saved by your faith according to the grace of God, why is so impossible to be healed of a disease or addiction by that same faith? I am of the lot of Christians who administer benefits of faith for various needs, received by folks who dare trust faith given by God because of their belief, which when developed increases their faith.
Close the gap.
Close the gap.
So you have attended enough pentecostal church services to be an expert on judging them? I have attended many and find most do not put a focus on the gift of tongues. Most I know of actually preach the blood, body, death and resurrection of Christ, and always observe the Last Supper communion as commanded by Jesus. I rarely enjoy that observance in typical mainline no0n-pentecostal/charismatic worship services. They might observe once a month or year.
So you prefer a heavily edited version that deletes pertinent facts that lead folks to Christ? This is similar to the Thomas Jefferson "Jefferson Bible" version that left out miracles and other supernatural facts.[/QUOTE]
Oh no, I use the fat one on the left
So you prefer a heavily edited version that deletes pertinent facts that lead folks to Christ? This is similar to the Thomas Jefferson "Jefferson Bible" version that left out miracles and other supernatural facts.[/QUOTE]
Oh no, I use the fat one on the left
Faith is individual based; if i have faith that i will be healed, then i will be healed, even if i won't, i still maintain the faith and trust God. I can not have faith and still wait for someone else to lay their hands on me, even if they do, it is still my faith that has healed me and not their gift of healing.
Gifts on the other hand worked differently. If someone was gifted in healing, then they went out and healed as much as they liked - it is their gift you know.
The dead were raised not because they had some little remnant faith in them but because the ones that were doing it were simply gifted to do so
Demons were driven from those that were possessed not because they had faith but because the ones doing it were gifted to do so.
In this church era, we walk by faith and love- the reason gifts had to cease.
Gifts on the other hand worked differently. If someone was gifted in healing, then they went out and healed as much as they liked - it is their gift you know.
The dead were raised not because they had some little remnant faith in them but because the ones that were doing it were simply gifted to do so
Demons were driven from those that were possessed not because they had faith but because the ones doing it were gifted to do so.
In this church era, we walk by faith and love- the reason gifts had to cease.
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I wasn't. I was making the point that speaking in tongues has it's place and purpose. I never even heard of speaking in tongues until the day I was saved, when I witnessed it I was frightened. The visiting missionary blessed me out loud, in English, for being a witness. I wasn't sure what I was a witness too, but when I went home I started praying for understanding and questioning if it was real. The Holy Spirit manifested it self in my life that night and from that night on I have felt a love that I never knew existed.
That's the funny thing about being a Christian. You're supposed to find out the Truth for yourself.
Only those with your particular gifting can really recognize your gifting.
Those without your gifting may tell you that your gift has ceased 2000 yrs ago. If you believe them then that is kind of sad.
It may be easy to spot or recognize fake people doing fake things. That doesn't mean that what they are faking doesn't exist. How do they know how to fake something unless they were attempting to emulate something that they saw that was real?
That's another difficult thing about Christianity. Is how much emulation is going on. You don't have to try to be a Christian. You are a Christian. You don't have to try to be like a Pastor that you've seen or other people who you think are good Christians. The Lord Jesus has made you to be you not to try to be someone else. That's the good thing about Rest.
At some point you just have to have confidence (faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done in you. Pride and arrogance and lack of humility is a major problem though and probably a big reason why more gifting is not seen. Like Saul when David started showing up. Saul didn't just step aside and maybe teach David some of the things the Lord had taught him. Saul was jealous and attempted to kill David.
Its probably human nature. Its why the Roman Catholic church is set up the way it is. Because men want to be worshipped and obeyed in place of God. Some men... not all... There's no way to fix it. Its like the political system. Those seeking power are the LAST ones who should have it. But they don't know that and don't really care. They only know what they desire.
Only those with your particular gifting can really recognize your gifting.
Those without your gifting may tell you that your gift has ceased 2000 yrs ago. If you believe them then that is kind of sad.
It may be easy to spot or recognize fake people doing fake things. That doesn't mean that what they are faking doesn't exist. How do they know how to fake something unless they were attempting to emulate something that they saw that was real?
That's another difficult thing about Christianity. Is how much emulation is going on. You don't have to try to be a Christian. You are a Christian. You don't have to try to be like a Pastor that you've seen or other people who you think are good Christians. The Lord Jesus has made you to be you not to try to be someone else. That's the good thing about Rest.
At some point you just have to have confidence (faith) in the Lord Jesus Christ and what He has done in you. Pride and arrogance and lack of humility is a major problem though and probably a big reason why more gifting is not seen. Like Saul when David started showing up. Saul didn't just step aside and maybe teach David some of the things the Lord had taught him. Saul was jealous and attempted to kill David.
Its probably human nature. Its why the Roman Catholic church is set up the way it is. Because men want to be worshipped and obeyed in place of God. Some men... not all... There's no way to fix it. Its like the political system. Those seeking power are the LAST ones who should have it. But they don't know that and don't really care. They only know what they desire.
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