Who was Jesus praying to in the garden of Gethsemane?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Jan 14, 2021
1,599
526
113
Lets let LDS speak for themselves,

"
Jess L. Christensen, Institute of Religion director at Utah State University, Logan, Utah. On first hearing, the doctrine that Lucifer and our Lord, Jesus Christ, are brothers may seem surprising to some—especially to those unacquainted with latter-day revelations. But both the scriptures and the prophets affirm that Jesus Christ and Lucifer are indeed offspring of our Heavenly Father and, therefore, spirit brothers. Jesus Christ was with the Father from the beginning. Lucifer, too, was an angel “who was in authority in the presence of God,” a “son of the morning.” (See Isa. 14:12; D&C 76:25–27.) Both Jesus and Lucifer were strong leaders with great knowledge and influence. But as the Firstborn of the Father, Jesus was Lucifer’s older brother. (See Col. 1:15; D&C 93:21.)

How could two such great spirits become so totally opposite? The answer lies in the principle of agency, which has existed from all eternity. (See D&C 93:30–31.) Of Lucifer, the scripture says that because of rebellion “he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies.” (Moses 4:4.) Note that he was not created evil, but became Satan by his own choice.

When our Father in Heaven presented his plan of salvation, Jesus sustained the plan and his part in it, giving the glory to God, to whom it properly belonged. Lucifer, on the other hand, sought power, honor, and glory only for himself. (See Isa. 14:13–14; Moses 4:1–2.) When his modification of the Father’s plan was rejected, he rebelled against God and was subsequently cast out of heaven with those who had sided with him. (See Rev. 12:7–9; D&C 29:36–37.)

"https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org...-and-purposes-are-so-utterly-opposed?lang=eng
I'm sure the LDS story of Lucifer and Jesus echoes the story of Cain and Abel (right down to the sacrifice of Abel or Jesus by Cain or Lucifer, respectively). The concept is internally consistent. What are you trying to communicate by expanding on LDS concepts? It's one example of a non-Trinitarian Christianity, and that was the only reason it was referenced earlier.
 

justahumanbeing

Well-known member
Mar 25, 2020
465
257
63
I learned about this through Pastor Derek Prince's teaching. I feel what he teaches is authentic and follow his principles towards rebuking demons. Please give a listen to the link I share. Pastor Derek's entire teaching is there on youtube as "How to be delivered from demons." I'm also sharing a link about the spirit of doubt also from Derek Prince.

About Demons and how they cause negative thinking among believers - Derek Prince.

Spirit of doubt:
 

justahumanbeing

Well-known member
Mar 25, 2020
465
257
63
I just checked "spirit of doubt" is not in scripture.
It may not be there in the scripture. But Jesus did cast out demons. And while He cast away demons, He doesn't go into detail about who the demons were. He just cast them away. Likewise our duty is to cast the demons which hinder our lives as Christians away from our lives. I know people are busy. When you have time, listen to this.
Whether you believe or not is up to you. But when you ask the question whether demons are real or not, I think you will get the answer you're looking for. And this Man of God, Derek Prince, has given us some insight on how to deal with them. And we as Christians should be rebuking the demons in our lives and welcoming the Holy Spirit to guide us instead. I've nothing further to add.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
I learned about this through Pastor Derek Prince's teaching. I feel what he teaches is authentic and follow his principles towards rebuking demons. Please give a listen to the link I share. Pastor Derek's entire teaching is there on youtube as "How to be delivered from demons." I'm also sharing a link about the spirit of doubt also from Derek Prince.

About Demons and how they cause negative thinking among believers - Derek Prince.

Spirit of doubt:
all the bible searches I gave demonstrates that your series of "spirit of" does not exist in Scripture.

Derek Prince is well known in Seminaries for poor exegesis.

While reading some of his books, I check quotes, too often he used them out of context.

Many of the miracles claimed by him were investigated and found that they never happened.

My advice friend is to Study to show yourself approved workman accurately handling Scripture in context.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
"Prince created the Shepherding Movement with fellow ministers Don Basham, Bob Mumford, Charles Simpson and Ern Baxter, who became known as the 'Fort Lauderdale Five.' They sought to counter what were seen as excesses within the Charismatic Movement, by emphasizing discipleship and pastoral care. The practice of 'personal submission to spiritual authorities' was considered controversial.[15] Prince's association with the Shepherding Movement provided international exposure. After leaving the movement, he focused on his own international ministry. "
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Prince#The_Shepherding_Movement

The Shepherding Movement was his biggest error. Some say only one of his problems.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
It may not be there in the scripture. But Jesus did cast out demons. And while He cast away demons, He doesn't go into detail about who the demons were. He just cast them away. Likewise our duty is to cast the demons which hinder our lives as Christians away from our lives. I know people are busy. When you have time, listen to this.
Whether you believe or not is up to you. But when you ask the question whether demons are real or not, I think you will get the answer you're looking for. And this Man of God, Derek Prince, has given us some insight on how to deal with them. And we as Christians should be rebuking the demons in our lives and welcoming the Holy Spirit to guide us instead. I've nothing further to add.
There is no such thing as Spirit of in the ones I checked for in scripture. That is something a false teacher made up.

That false teacher also contradicts eze 18 with his false doctrine of generational curses.

Ezekiel 18
Easy-to-Read Version
True Justice
18 The word of the Lord came to me. He said, 2 “Why do you people say this proverb:

‘The parents ate the sour grapes,
but the children got the sour taste’[a]?”

3 But the Lord God says, “By my life, I swear that people in Israel will not think this proverb is true anymore! 4 I will treat everyone, child and parent, just the same. The one who sins is the one who will die!

5 “A person who is good will live! He is fair and does what is right. 6 He doesn’t go to the mountains to share food offered to idols. He doesn’t pray to those filthy idols in Israel. He doesn’t commit adultery with his neighbor’s wife or with a woman during her period. 7 He doesn’t take advantage of others. If someone borrows money from him, he might take something of value before he gives the money. But when that person pays him back, he returns what he took. He gives food to the hungry and clothes to people who need them. 8 If someone wants to borrow money from him, he lends the money and doesn’t charge interest on the loan. He refuses to be crooked. He is always fair with everyone. People can trust him. 9 He obeys my laws and studies my rules so that he can learn to be fair and dependable. He is good, so he will live.” This is what the Lord God said.

10 “But someone like that might have a son who does not do any of these good things. The son steals things and kills people. 11 He does things his father never did. He goes to the mountains and eats foods offered to false gods. He commits the sin of adultery with his neighbor’s wife. 12 He mistreats poor, helpless people. He takes advantage of them. When a debt is paid, he does not give back what he took from them. He prays to filthy idols and does other terrible things. 13 He lends money to people who need it, but he forces them to pay interest on the loan. The evil son will not be allowed to live. He will be put to death because he did such terrible things, and he will be responsible for his own death.

14 “Now, that evil son might also have a son. But this son sees the bad things his father did, and he refuses to live as his father did. He treats people fairly. 15 He does not go to the mountains and eat foods offered to false gods. He does not pray to filthy idols in Israel. He does not commit the sin of adultery with his neighbor’s wife. 16 He does not take advantage of people. If someone borrows money from him, the good son takes something of value and then gives the other person the money. When that person pays him back, the good son gives back what he took. The good son gives food to hungry people, and he gives clothes to those who need them. 17 He helps the poor. If people want to borrow money, the good son lends them the money, and he does not charge interest on the loan. He obeys my laws and follows them. He will not be put to death for his father’s sins. The good son will live. 18 The father hurts people and steals things. He never does anything good for my people! He will die because of his own sins.

19 “You might ask, ‘Why will the son not be punished for his father’s sins?’ The reason is that the son was fair and did good things. He very carefully obeyed my laws, so he will live. 20 The one who sins is the one who will be put to death. A son will not be punished for his father’s sins, and a father will not be punished for his son’s sins. A good man’s goodness belongs to him alone, and a bad man’s evil belongs to him alone.

21 “Now, if evil people change their lives, they will live and not die. They might stop doing all the bad things they did and begin to carefully obey all my laws. They might become fair and good. 22 God will not remember all the bad things they did. He will remember only their goodness, so they will live!”

23 The Lord God says, “I don’t want evil people to die. I want them to change their lives so that they can live!

24 “Now, maybe good people might stop being good. They might change their lives and begin to do all the terrible things that evil people have done in the past. (The evil people changed, so they can live.) So if those good people change and become bad, God will not remember all the good things they did. He will remember that they turned against him and began to sin. So they will die because of their sin.

25 “You people might say, ‘The Lord isn’t fair!’ But listen, family of Israel. I am fair. You are the ones who are not fair! 26 If good people change and become evil, they must die for the bad things they do. 27 And if evil people change and become good and fair, they will save their lives. They will live! 28 They saw how wicked they were and came back to me. They stopped doing the evil things they did in the past. So they will live! They will not die!”

29 The people of Israel said, “That’s not fair! The Lord isn’t fair!”

“I am fair! You are the ones who are not fair! 30 Why? Because, family of Israel, I will judge each of you only for what you do!” This is what the Lord God said. “So come back to me! Stop committing those crimes and do away with those things that cause you to sin! 31 Throw away all the terrible idols with which you committed your crimes! Change your heart and spirit. People of Israel, why should you do things that will cost you your life? 32 I don’t want to kill you! Please come back and live!” This is what the Lord God said.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
I'm sure the LDS story of Lucifer and Jesus echoes the story of Cain and Abel (right down to the sacrifice of Abel or Jesus by Cain or Lucifer, respectively). The concept is internally consistent. What are you trying to communicate by expanding on LDS concepts? It's one example of a non-Trinitarian Christianity, and that was the only reason it was referenced earlier.
That is correct and wrong. LDS redefines the trinity as being three gods in agreement. Let's let the LDS thing die. thanks for your kind input brother.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
"We received a lot of questions from one of the takeaways in this past Sunday’s message: When you feel the presence of evil, call on Jesus to protect you. I pointed out that Satan is powerful and active but Jesus is stronger. And he will use that strength to rescue you if you call on his name. Then I said as a caution: Don’t speak to Satan and say things like “I bind you in Jesus’ name.” That’s not biblical and not wise. You can’t bind Satan. Jesus can. Pray to Jesus. "
https://www.brazospointe.com/pickspointe/2019/5/9/can-we-rebuke-or-bind-satan

Jesus being God can rebuke a demon, you and me are not God.

“Immediately there was in their synagogue a man with an unclean spirit. And he cried out, ‘What have you to do with us, Jesus of Nazareth? Have you come to destroy us? I know who you are—the Holy One of God.’ But Jesus rebuked him, saying, ‘Be silent, and come out of him!’ And the unclean spirit, convulsing him and crying out with a loud voice, came out of him” (vv. 23–26).

- Mark 1:23-28

Zechariah 3:2
King James Version
2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

Humans rebuking demons contradicts Jude 1:9

Jude 1:9
Good News Translation
9 Not even the chief angel Michael did this. In his quarrel with the Devil, when they argued about who would have the body of Moses, Michael did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”

I just checked, there are no examples of humans rebuking demons in Scripture.
https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?qs_version=KJV&quicksearch=+rebuke&begin=47&end=73


Only God which Jesus is rebukes demons.

We are to James 4

7 So give yourselves to God. Stand against the devil, and he will run away from you. 8 Come near to God and he will come near to you. You are sinners, so clean sin out of your lives.[c] You are trying to follow God and the world at the same time. Make your thinking pure. 9 Be sad, be sorry, and cry! Change your laughter into crying. Change your joy into sadness. 10 Be humble before the Lord, and he will make you great.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
It may not be there in the scripture. But Jesus did cast out demons. And while He cast away demons, He doesn't go into detail about who the demons were. He just cast them away. Likewise our duty is to cast the demons which hinder our lives as Christians away from our lives. I know people are busy. When you have time, listen to this.
Whether you believe or not is up to you. But when you ask the question whether demons are real or not, I think you will get the answer you're looking for. And this Man of God, Derek Prince, has given us some insight on how to deal with them. And we as Christians should be rebuking the demons in our lives and welcoming the Holy Spirit to guide us instead. I've nothing further to add.
Jesus is God, we are not in reference to rebuking demons.

Acts 19 has an example of Apostles exercising evil spirits, there is no example in scripture of humans who are not apostles doing that.

11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul:

12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preached.

14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.

15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.

17 And this was known to all the Jews and Greeks also dwelling at Ephesus; and fear fell on them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was magnified.

As far as I know, I do not have the authority of an Apostle.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Please show me many examples of non Apostles, those who are Not Jesus and Not God rebuking demons. There are no such examples. We do not have that authority. James 4 has us drawing close to God so he can rebuke the demons.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Mark 9:25-29
Easy-to-Read Version
25 Jesus saw that all the people were running there to see what was happening. So he spoke to the evil spirit. He said, “You evil spirit that makes this boy deaf and stops him from talking—I command you to come out of him and never enter him again!”

26 The evil spirit screamed. It caused the boy to fall on the ground again, and then it came out. The boy looked as if he was dead. Many people said, “He is dead!” 27 But Jesus took hold of his hand and helped him stand up.

28 Then Jesus went into the house. His followers were alone with him there. They said, “Why weren’t we able to force that evil spirit out?”

29 Jesus answered, “That kind of spirit can be forced out only with prayer.


Again we are not the Apostles, nor God.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Please show me many examples of non Apostles, those who are Not Jesus and Not God rebuking demons. There are no such examples. We do not have that authority. James 4 has us drawing close to God so he can rebuke the demons.
Key word rebuking. We do not have that authority.
 

justahumanbeing

Well-known member
Mar 25, 2020
465
257
63
Here are just some of the examples of his other bad teachings.
https://christian-answers.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F113590648905
I didn't know. Thank you for sharing this information. Something did feel funny and out of place listening to his teaching. Well, for me I don't take the teaching at face value like he puts it. For me, I'd like to think of it more as an attitude. But there's no excuse after reading this and reading suitable scripture that explains salvation clearly. That our God does not visit the sins of our ancestors on us. We only need to worry for ourselves. Thank you for looking out for me my brother. I accept what you've shared. What you've shared here feels more right that what I hear in Derek Prince's teaching. Something did feel off about what He preached. Well, it's all good then. Thank you and God bless
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,995
1,264
113
Please show me many examples of non Apostles, those who are Not Jesus and Not God rebuking demons. There are no such examples. We do not have that authority.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Here we are told that those who believe and are baptised will have the authority to cast out devils in the name of Christ.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Here we are told that those who believe and are baptised will have the authority to cast out devils in the name of Christ.

It well known that Mark 16 longer version is not genuine. So, I would not form theology on it.

Even so, verses 14-15 lets us know the statement was addressed to the Apostles only, not everyone.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

Paul is the only one I remember who was bite by a snake.

Matthew 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee, into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Context Matters.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
4,995
1,264
113
It well known that Mark 16 longer version is not genuine. So, I would not form theology on it.

It is a valid part of the NT so I do accept it and reject those who reject parts of God's holy word.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
It is a valid part of the NT so I do accept it and reject those who reject parts of God's holy word.
And, yet I showed that in context Jesus was only speaking to the 11 apostles. As was the case in Matthew 28.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
"
Should Mark 16:9-20 be in the Bible?

ANSWER

Although the vast majority of later Greek manuscripts contain Mark 16:9-20, the Gospel of Mark ends at verse 8 in two of the oldest and most respected manuscripts, the Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus. As the oldest manuscripts are known to be the most accurate because there were fewer generations of copies from the original autographs (i.e., they are much closer in time to the originals), and the oldest manuscripts do not contain vv. 9-20, we can conclude that these verses were added later by scribes. The King James Version of the Bible, as well as the New King James, contains vv. 9-20 because the King James used medieval manuscripts as the basis of its translation. Since 1611, however, older and more accurate manuscripts have been discovered and they affirm that vv. 9-20 were not in the original Gospel of Mark.

In addition, the fourth-century church fathers Eusebius and Jerome noted that almost all Greek manuscripts available to them lacked vv. 9–20, although they doubtless knew those other endings existed. In the second century, Justin Martyr and Tatian knew about other endings. Irenaeus, also, in A.D. 150 to 200, must have known about this long ending because he quotes verse 19 from it. So, the early church fathers knew of the added verses, but even by the fourth century, Eusebius said the Greek manuscripts did not include these endings in the originals.

The internal evidence from this passage also casts doubt on Mark as the author. For one thing, the transition between verses 8 and 9 is abrupt and awkward. The Greek word translated “now” that begins v. 9 should link it to what follows, as the use of the word “now” does in the other synoptic Gospels. However, what follows doesn’t continue the story of the women referred to in v. 8, describing instead Jesus’ appearing to Mary Magdalene. There’s no transition there, but rather an abrupt and bizarre change, lacking the continuity typical of Mark’s narrative. The author should be continuing the story of the women based on the word “now,” not jumping to the appearance to Mary Magdalene. Further, for Mark to introduce Mary Magdalene here as though for the very first time (v. 9) is odd because she had already been introduced in Mark’s narrative (Mark 15:40, 47, 16:1), another evidence that this section was not written by Mark.

Furthermore, the vocabulary is not consistent with Mark’s Gospel. These last verses don’t read like Mark’s. There are eighteen words here that are never used anywhere by Mark, and the structure is very different from the familiar structure of his writing. The title “Lord Jesus,” used in verse 19, is never used anywhere else by Mark. Also, the reference to signs in vv. 17-18 doesn’t appear in any of the four Gospels. In no account, post-resurrection of Jesus, is there any discussion of signs like picking up serpents, speaking with tongues, casting out demons, drinking poison, or laying hands on the sick. So, both internally and externally, this is foreign to Mark.

While the added ending offers no new information, nor does it contradict previously revealed events and/or doctrine, both the external and internal evidence make it quite certain that Mark did not write it. In reality, ending his Gospel in verse 8 with the description of the amazement of the women at the tomb is entirely consistent with the rest of the narrative. Amazement at the Lord Jesus seems to be a theme with Mark. “They were amazed at his teaching” (Mark 1:22); “They were all amazed, so that they debated among themselves” (Mark 1:27); “He healed the paralytic, and they were all amazed and were glorifying God saying, ‘We’ve never seen anything like this’” (Mark 2:12). Astonishment at the work of Jesus is revealed throughout Mark’s narrative (Mark 4:41; 5:15, 33, 42; 6:51; 9:6, 15, 32; 10:24, 32; 11:18; 12:17; 16:5). Some, or even one, of the early scribes, however, apparently missed the thematic evidence and felt the need to add a more conventional ending.
"https://www.gotquestions.org/Mark-16-9-20.html
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,176
1,573
113
68
Brighton, MI
There are a few early extant copies of the Bible containing the Gospel of Mark which do NOT include the Long Ending of Mark 16:9-20:

Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus—-300’s.
Syriac Sinaitucus—late 300’s
Codex Bobiensis—c. 300-400’s
Armenian Version Manuscript—411-450
Miniscule 304—1100’s