Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[reneweddaybyday]

They are justified before God before they believe because Christ has already purged away their sins by His death or blood

I understand that is what you believe.

However, as pointed out to you numerous times, Ephesians 1:13 explains the process very succinctly:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

you trusted after you heard
you believed after you trusted
you were sealed after you believed


You need to align your beliefs with God's Word ...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

you really need to quit ripping verses out of the context within which they sit ... keep reading, brightefame52 ...

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

...

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. .

..

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith

 

[riverhooks]

All of mankind has faith, brightfame52.

The question is not “does someone have faith”.

The question is “in what (Who, more specifically) do we place our faith”.

The more someone places their faith in (believes) a lie, the worse it is for them.

The atheist places his/her faith in the fact that there is no God. He/she remains weak in faith ... even to the point where God strengthens that unbelief (hardens their heart).

The believer places his/her faith in the Truth that God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein. The believer's faith is strengthened as he/she believes more and more of the Truth of God's Word.

He is talking irrestitable grace . God chose em, Justified em without , faith, they couldn't believe or choose him or resist him or needed to do anything . Shoot from what he says, they were seated with him before they believed . So His Jesus is not the impossible for Him to lie Jesus of Scripture. He told them to repent and believe when they couldn't . Leave this guy alone . He is reprobate.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

He is talking irrestitable grace

I know.

 

[riverhooks]

How convenient to not be responsible for where you end up.

 

[Onesimus63]

Though it is maybe not so wise to keep stating God decides who will be saved, for it can lead to inevitable questions from those new to the faith, is there any merit in it?

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away John6:37

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them verse 44

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy Romans9:15&16

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God Eph2:9

In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, Eph 1:11

Of course, you could debate this endlessly as it is not hard to bring forth scripture that at first glance would seem to oppose the above.

 

[brightfame52]

The Call precedes justification. Romans 8:28-30. Foreknown, predestined, called, justified, glorified. The call produces Faith and faith, (which is a gift of God), results in justification (as a secondary, not primary cause or instrument).

A person is Justified before God before they are called. Christ died for an individual before they are called. If Christ died for a person in 33 ad, and took away their sins, and they arent born a sinner until 1952, and God didnt call them until 1990, weren't they Justified by His death for them before they were called unto a knowledge of it ? Yes or no

 

[brightfame52]

• not only ours
  ((in context clearly: the elect, out from the Jews and the Gentiles also - John isn't writing only to Jews but to a mixed Gentile church))
• but also the whole world
  ((that's everyone outside of the church))

you're contradicting scripture. i'm not.
the matter is settled - Christ died for everyone; not everyone believes; not all are saved

1 Jn 2:2 applies to the whole world of the elect, jews and gentiles. Only the elect are Justified Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

 

[brightfame52]

All of mankind has faith, brightfame52.

The question is not “does someone have faith”.

The question is “in what (Who, more specifically) do we place our faith”.

The more someone places their faith in (believes) a lie, the worse it is for them.

The atheist places his/her faith in the fact that there is no God. He/she remains weak in faith ... even to the point where God strengthens that unbelief (hardens their heart).

The believer places his/her faith in the Truth that God is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein. The believer's faith is strengthened as he/she believes more and more of the Truth of God's Word.

The elect are Justified before God prior to them given faith to believe.

 

[brightfame52]

I understand that is what you believe.

However, as pointed out to you numerous times, Ephesians 1:13 explains the process very succinctly:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise

you trusted after you heard
you believed after you trusted
you were sealed after you believed


You need to align your beliefs with God's Word ...

Christ purged away the sins of the elect and sat down at the right hand of God Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high: They were Justified when He sat down at the right hand of God after purging their sins away.

 

[brightfame52]

you really need to quit ripping verses out of the context within which they sit ... keep reading, brightefame52 ...

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

...

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. .

..

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith

You need to pay attention to what scripture is saying in the context in which its found. Justification is freely by Gods Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

According to this verse, how were they freely Justified ? What is the grounds ?

 

[posthuman]

1 Jn 2:2 applies to the whole world of the elect, jews and gentiles

Nope.

1 John 2:2 is extraordinarily clear that Christ died not only for our sins but Al's the whole world. The elect are never called the world, and John specifically says the world is distinct from the elect.

 

[riverhooks]

Though it is maybe not so wise to keep stating God decides who will be saved, for it can lead to inevitable questions from those new to the faith, is there any merit in it?

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away John6:37

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them verse 44

I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion

It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy Romans9:15&16

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God Eph2:9

In him we were also chosen,[e] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, Eph 1:11

Of course, you could debate this endlessly as it is not hard to bring forth scripture that at first glance would seem to oppose the above.

Same scriptures are used in context by the non Calvinist. However freewill is left untouched , the elect are justified by faith , salvation is still by Grace through faith , God does not over-rule freewill , The Holy Spirit draws and all who respond are using freewill to do so God does not force anyone to believe on Him to obtain his elect, depravity is not the same inability , All the Father gives to Jesus will not be cast out KJV , point One . All who repent and believe the gospel are the elect , God still has foreknowledge and the ability to govern a creation in which he has put a premium on freewill. They are ones the Father has given to Jesus. They have obeyed . All things work together for the believers to conform them to the image of His Son . I agree it is not hard to bring forth scripture to endlessly debate the above this is exactly why I believe as a dog chasing it's tail that is why the calvinist is convinced that the faith once delivered to the saints MUST be based on Calvins interpretation and always returns to a T.U.L.I.P overlay to template his view they must all agree and work together i.e. KJV + Calvin = faith once delivered to the saints. Take Calvin and reformed theology out of the picture and you have Gods Word and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit to lead you

 

[OIC1965]

A person is Justified before God before they are called. Christ died for an individual before they are called. If Christ died for a person in 33 ad, and took away their sins, and they arent born a sinner until 1952, and God didnt call them until 1990, weren't they Justified by His death for them before they were called unto a knowledge of it ? Yes or no

You are confusing foreknowledge and predestination with justification.

 

[OIC1965]

A person is Justified before God before they are called. Christ died for an individual before they are called. If Christ died for a person in 33 ad, and took away their sins, and they arent born a sinner until 1952, and God didnt call them until 1990, weren't they Justified by His death for them before they were called unto a knowledge of it ? Yes or no

See Galatians 3:24

 

[riverhooks]

You need to pay attention to what scripture is saying in the context in which its found. Justification is freely by Gods Grace Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

According to this verse, how were they freely Justified ? What is the grounds ?

Take Calvin AND Reformed theology out of the picture and you are left with the Holy Scriptures and The Holy Spirit to lead you . If you continue in His Word you will become His Disciple Indeed. If you continue to use T.U.L.I.P . You will continue be an apologist for Reformed Theology and basically continue in error. Do you hear me now. ? Step one to your recovery. Take Calvin and Reformed Theology out of the picture and you may begin to get the drift. Calvin is a false teacher and you are his disciple. An apologist for Calvins interpretation. Do you hear me now ?The reason you are butting heads with everyone is Calvin Skews God and Scripture . You have the Holy Spirit , Does the Holy Spirit have you ? Take TULIP out of the picture. Take Calvin out of the picture .

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Justified before God prior to them given faith to believe.

not according to Scripture:

Romans 4:

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him [Abraham]

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith ...

 

[reneweddaybyday]

They were Justified when He sat down at the right hand of God after purging their sins away.

nope ... your dogma does not align with what is written in Scripture ...

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it [Abraham's faith] was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Justification is freely by Gods Grace

why do you continue to presume that faith somehow negates God's grace?

Romans 4:

1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


These verses clearly show that believing/faith is not works.

It is error on your part when you continue to infer that God imputing righteousness through faith is somehow outside the bounds of God's grace.




[quote=brightfame52]You need to pay attention to what scripture is saying in the context in which its found.[/quote]
excuse me??? ... I'm not the one lifting verses from the context.

You lifted Romans 3:24 from the context within which God placed the verse ... the Author of Scripture is quite succinct in telling the reader of Scripture that:


Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

...

28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. .

..

30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith


I have already shown you that according to Romans 4:1-5, faith is not works ... just believe what is written in Scripture. God will then work in your heart to give you understanding as to how/why faith is not works and faith is not outside the bounds of God's grace.

 

[riverhooks]

. Be led of the Holy Spirit and the Holy Scriptures Without Reformed Theology ? God would want me to change. HE CERTAINLY DOES.