Who is the beast that was and is not?

ewq1938 · Apr 23, 2021

No, post trib

Yes.

Off the top of my head. Daniel has 3 of 10 horns being plucked up while Revelation has none plucked up.
Daniel has the first 3 beasts existing after the 4th beast with ten (eventually 7) horns is destroyed where Revelation has no beasts existing after it's ten horned beast is destroyed.

Seems that there was something God said would happen but then he changes his mind and decides not to do it. I can't remember where that is but it's in the OT. Something about killing a lot of people but then he decides not to. But the examples between Daniels ten horned beast and Rev's are solid examples. Another one is the OT's new heaven and new Earth where people still die but in Revelation 21's new heaven and new Earth death no longer exists.[/quote]

ewq1938 · Apr 23, 2021

Nebuchadnezzer said:

Only on certain things. God has changed his mind before:

Consider King Hezekiah. God told him to get his house in order because he was about to die. Hezekiah begged the Lord to let him live, so He gave him 15 more years. God did not change, but God changed his mind! Two very different things!

Exo 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

Ex 32:14 So the Lord changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
NASB

Amos 7:1 Thus the Lord GOD showed me, and behold, He was forming a locust-swarm when the spring crop began to sprout. And behold, the spring crop was after the king's mowing.
2 And it came about, when it had finished eating the vegetation of the land, that I said, "Lord GOD, please pardon! How can Jacob stand, For he is small?"
3 The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.
4 ¶Thus the Lord GOD showed me, and behold, the Lord GOD was calling to contend with them by fire, and it consumed the great deep and began to consume the farm land.
5 Then I said, "Lord GOD, please stop! How can Jacob stand, for he is small?"
6 The LORD changed His mind about this. "This too shall not be," said the Lord GOD.
7 ¶Thus He showed me, and behold, the Lord was standing by a vertical wall, with a plumb line in His hand.
8 And the LORD said to me, "What do you see, Amos?" And I said, "A plumb line." Then the Lord said, "Behold I am about to put a plumb line In the midst of My people Israel. I will spare them no longer.

Another time God changed his mind was regarding the Israelites and the golden calf. God initially was going to destroy them and make a new nation of people from the descendants of Moses instead but Moses intervened and God changed His mind again and allowed the people of Israel to live.

Genesis 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Here God feels like he should not have created mankind. He regrets the decision and is very upset over it. If God didn't change his mind he would not have to regret any decisions. It also shows that he didn't know that man would have become so wicked otherwise he wouldn't have made man.

Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.

"He dug it all around, removed its stones, and planted it with the choicest vine. And He built a tower in the middle of it and also hewed out a wine vat in it; Then He expected it to produce good grapes, but it produced only worthless ones" (Isa. 5:2).

Here God clearly expected one thing but another thing occurred proving in this particular situation showing he did not know what would occur.

God can choose to know the future or choose not to as in the above example.

Isaiah 43:25 I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.

How does an all knowing God not remember sins? Wouldn't that be a contradiction?

For example, his knowledge of the future is "iffy" in the case of Sodom. "If I find... " Also, Jer. 18 states that God warns, then waits to see what happens, before taking action. Now, if God know the future ahead of time, he would not have to wait around to see what is going to happen.

Gen 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

He's going to kill everyone and everything except fish/sealife.

It is only after that thought does he give grace to one man and his family:

Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

That's God changing his mind to spare one family and a lot of animals because originally he feels like destroying all and saving none.

It's the same with the sister story of Lot. Originally he was going to kill all, but Abraham intervenes and tries to get God to spare everyone if a certain number of righteous people were found. Enough wasn't found but God does decide to, again, spare one man and his family.

That's not a very good argument. 4 beasts are mentioned, then we are told that the 4th beast is destroyed then it speaks of what happened to the other beasts. Clearly it's a reference to the beasts that were already mentioned.

No other beasts are said to come after the ten horned beast, not in Daniel or Revelation. The 4th beast is the last beast.

No, the Revelation 13:1 beast is one beast who has similarities to former beasts.

No, that clearly is Daniel telling us what happens to the 3 beasts he told us about.

ewq1938 · Apr 23, 2021

lamad said:

The Great Tribulation beast will be much more powerful and larger than those ever were. It will be a global empire.

Nebuchadnezzer · Apr 23, 2021

ewq1938 said:

I believe God does not just willy-nilly change his mind.
God can "change" his mind if he is justified to do so. Also I believe when God "changes his mind" he does so because it has purpose and meaning to teach us His righteous ways.

For brevity I will only address your portion on King Hezekiah.

First, let's look at King Azariah
2 Kings 15:3-6
Azariah Reigns in Judah
3 And he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, according to all that his father Amaziah had done. 4 Nevertheless, the high places were not taken away. The people still sacrificed and made offerings on the high places. 5 And the Lord touched the king, so that he was a leper to the day of his death, and he lived in a separate house.

So Azariah did what was right in the eyes of the Lord BUT, he had serious failings, he did not take away the idolatry. The Lord touched him all his life with an incurable sickness. The two certainly appear to be connected.

Second, let's look at King Hezekiah
2 Kings 18:3-5
Hezekiah Reigns in Judah
3 And he did what was right in the eyes of the Lord, according to all that David his father had done. 4 He removed the high places and broke the pillars and cut down the Asherah. And he broke in pieces the bronze serpent that Moses had made, for until those days the people of Israel had made offerings to it (it was called Nehushtan).[a] 5 He trusted in the Lord, the God of Israel, so that there was none like him among all the kings of Judah after him, nor among those who were before him.

So Hezekiah did what was right in the eyes of the Lord AND, he succeeded in taking away idols. The Lord touched him with a terminal illness but then God relented and healed him after Hezekiah reminded God in prayer of his faithfulness (his removal of idols would be an example).

God relented and healed Hezekiah for his faithfulness. Recall in the new testament Jesus would tell certain followers that "your faith has healed you".

So it seems that Hezekiah's faith healed him. And so thus God was justified in "changing" his mind.
Azariah never rid of idols and suffered a chronic ailment for all his days. So his lack of faith did not heal him.
And so thus God was justified in "not changing" his mind.

So there is a lesson here. God did not willy-nilly change his mind with King Hezekiah. So there is a dynamic between the believer and God. I also think there is even more to learn with King hezekiah, but I have not uncovered it yet / God has not yet revealed it to me.

Now Going back to the Daniel 7 Beasts:
IF God changed his mind on his Daniel 7 Beasts prophesy THEN what is God's purpose, meaning and justification for this? What is God teaching us by "changing" his mind here?

If you cannot find any purpose or meaning to teach us something then I would advise against suggesting that God changed his mind for no justifiable reason.

ewq1938 · Apr 23, 2021

Nebuchadnezzer said:

No one believes that.

And thart is quite easy to prove as I did in the previous post.

It isn't debatable that God changed some things between Daniels prophecies and what John was shown. He doesn't tell us why but He did do it. Also, God does not need to justify anything to you or me. He can change his mind if he wishes for any or no reason at all. I would suggest reading the last 4-5 chapters of Job to cover that part.

Nebuchadnezzer · Apr 23, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Well than maybe your God will change his mind and take away the salvation he gave you. Good luck with your changeable God.

My God is steadfast. My God is not like shifting sands. My God is a Rock!

ewq1938 · Apr 23, 2021

Nebuchadnezzer said:

Good luck impressing people with insults and unChristian attitude.

Kolistus · Apr 24, 2021

ewq1938 said:

[/QUOTE]
Very interesting.

Do you believe the future beast kingdom to have something to do with Rome as the 8th king is from the 7?

Or what do you believe it is?

What about the mark of the beast, do you believe it to be a mark preventing buying and selling literally or iis it figurative?

Nebuchadnezzer · Apr 24, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Psalm 136
His Steadfast Love Endures Forever
136 Give thanks to the Lord, for he is good,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
2 Give thanks to the God of gods,
for his steadfast love endures forever.
3 Give thanks to the Lord of lords,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
4 to him who alone does great wonders,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
5 to him who by understanding made the heavens,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
6 to him who spread out the earth above the waters,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
7 to him who made the great lights,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
8 the sun to rule over the day,
for his steadfast love endures forever;
9 the moon and stars to rule over the night,
for his steadfast love endures forever;

Rondonmon · Apr 24, 2021

Nebuchadnezzer said:

God does change His mind via........CONDITIONS..........Although God knows all, He wants us to understand that REPENTANCE MATTERS, so even though He already knew that Nineveh would repent, he wanted to teach Jonah a lesson about forgiveness and repentance. God also taught Isaiah a lesson about mercy, of course, God knew Hezekiah would repent, and that He would accept that repentance, but He also knew it was probably going to take a Holy man of God giving them the final edict in order to make them repent.

So, God will repent at times, it says in Genesis it REPENTED God that he had slain all mankind on earth via the flood. That means it bothered him, he didn't want to ever do that again. So, God did indeed foreknow what they would do, we know that, but God had to sent an ultimate edict unto them to get their attention it seems.

So, you are both correct in a sense. Gods heart can change if we REPENT, of course, and God already knows the beginning from the end, so it's hard to say God CHANGED His mind, but in essence, He is telling us, our ACTIONS CAUSE God to change His mind about us when we REPENT and accept the Sacrifice of Jesus.

I think both of you are arguing over a nonpoint, to be honest.

ewq1938 · Apr 24, 2021

Kolistus said:

No. Rome was a type or shadow of the final beast but it's not going to be Rome again.

Something new and different than ones before it like Daniel says:

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

I think it will be a visible or scannable mark that will let a marked person buy or sell.

Nebuchadnezzer · Apr 24, 2021

Rondonmon said:

I appreciate you comment.

Look, ewq1938 is saying that God changes his mind without direction or planning or reason. Furthermore, he is saying that everyone believes this.
ewq1938 is suggesting God is careless and reckless.
But God says His word is perfect and holy.
In my eyes ewq1938 is making God to be a liar.
To me this is serious error and ewq1938 needs to be called on it.

I will not repsonse to ewq1938 anymore.

Nebuchadnezzer · Apr 24, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Rondonmon said:

God does change His mind via........CONDITIONS..........Although God knows all, He wants us to understand that REPENTANCE MATTERS, so even though He already knew that Nineveh would repent, he wanted to teach Jonah a lesson about forgiveness and repentance. God also taught Isaiah a lesson about mercy, of course, God knew Hezekiah would repent, and that He would accept that repentance, but He also knew it was probably going to take a Holy man of God giving them the final edict in order to make them repent.

So, God will repent at times, it says in Genesis it REPENTED God that he had slain all mankind on earth via the flood. That means it bothered him, he didn't want to ever do that again. So, God did indeed foreknow what they would do, we know that, but God had to sent an ultimate edict unto them to get their attention it seems.

So, you are both correct in a sense. Gods heart can change if we REPENT, of course, and God already knows the beginning from the end, so it's hard to say God CHANGED His mind, but in essence, He is telling us, our ACTIONS CAUSE God to change His mind about us when we REPENT and accept the Sacrifice of Jesus.

I think both of you are arguing over a nonpoint, to be honest.

I just realized I mis-understood what ewq1938 was saying at the beginning of Post #226. and this was the reason I responded to Post #226 in a harsh way. I apologize for my misunderstanding of what you meant ewq1938. Hope no hard feelings.

ewq1938 · Apr 24, 2021

Nebuchadnezzer said:

Thank you.

Journeyman · Apr 24, 2021

Kolistus said:

Can some of the brethren here help me unlock a few things:

Revelation 17:9-12
And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

1. Who are the seven kings?

2. Who is the beast that was and is not? My guess would be something related to the Roman Empire as previously in the chapter it talks about purple and scarlet and being drunk with the blood of the saints and cup of abominations, all fit the Catholic Church.

3. Rome is called the city on seven hills so I am confident the mountains refer to that. I have heard some say Jerusalem is also called that, but I find Rome to be more likely as John is writing in code to avoid further Roman persecution I believe. It also says the city runs the kingdoms of the earth, that much more aligns with Vatican city where all the world leaders meet the Pope all the time and they are actively involved. Jerusalem doesn't really run things right now.

Well Kolistus,
I suppose the identity of the beast that was, is not and yet is does matter, but Paul said,

know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? 1Cor.6:16

And beasts and all unbelievers who join themselves with them are just prostitutes who share the same en

john832 · Apr 24, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Rev 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man: His number is 666.

The Beast and the False Prophet are men.

ewq1938 · Apr 24, 2021

john832 said:

The FP beast is a man but the ten horned 7 headed beast is a ten kingdom empire. The FP is the ruler of that empire. It's kind of like the United nations being this big organization of most countries and then let's say one day a man is elected to be President or ruler over it all. That's what the beast and FP beast are like.

Ahwatukee · Apr 24, 2021

john832 said:

That is correct! I agree with you. However, you have to understand that the beast who comes up out of the Abyss, who is a fallen angel, will be the power behind the antichrist. So there are two elements here. The antichrist who will make the covenant with many for that seven year period who will be a literal man. But when that 5th trumpet is sounded, that angel/beast will come up out of the Abyss, will be the principality behind the antichrist.

"They were ruled by a king, the angel of the Abyss. His name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek it is Apollyon"

"When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them."

"The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction."

How can the beast be a man, when he is referred to as an angel and is coming up out of the Abyss?

john832 · May 14, 2021

ewq1938 said:

Opinion here? Actually, you are somewhat correct, the Beast is the Holy Roman Empire and it is also the political/military head of this Empire. The seventh and last head is just now arising in Europe. Not making any prediction here but Jens Spahn is a very interesting character. He is openly gay and married to an openly gay man...

Dan 11:37 He shall regard neither the God of his fathers nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall exalt himself above them all.

Again, not a prediction, can't see a way to tie 666 to his name just an interesting observation,

Runningman · May 14, 2021

Ahwatukee said:

Revelation 13:17-18
17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
18Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

I bolded the word "name" above. The MotB will have something to do with his name or the number of his name. Aside from that, the exact vehicle of how that is implemented is not really discussed. The word "mark" used in the verses above is translated as a literal etching.

The MotB will be some sort of literal etching associated with the beast's name or the number of his name. So that could be a hot iron brand or tattoo for example.

In describing this, John said that he saw this in a vision according to Revelation 13:11. So the MotB will be something visible and not necessarily only a subdermal implant (such as a microchip) even though that can't be ruled out since that wouldn't have been visible to John in his vision. That would work well with our current infrastructure of buying and selling.

I think sometimes we miss the forest for the trees looking for answers. I think the MotB will certainly include an exterior mark of the surface of the skin somewhere on the right hand or the forehead.

Who is the beast that was and is not?

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