Let me look again at 1 Cor 2:14 and see if it says the natural man can (comprehend, to produce faith), No! it says the spiritual scriptures are foolishness unto him and he can not discern (comprehend) them. John 20:31 does not harmonize with 1 Cor 2:14. Jesus is talking to his disciples saying that 'ye' might believe, and that believing "YE" might have life through his name. The only way the natural man will ever become spiritual and believe spiritual things is explained in Eph 2, especially in verse 5, God regenerates the natural man while he is yet "dead in sins" unable to ask to be spiritually regenerated. This particular transformation gives all credit to a sovereign God without the help of man. The natural man has no spiritual faith. He must first be born of the Spirit to have faith because faith is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22). You can not have an apple without first having an apple tree.
Who are the inspired scriptures directed to?
- Thread starter ForestGreenCook
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Hi Diana, I don't believe that a "natural" man/woman needs to be "saved" to be able to understand and then respond in saving faith to the Gospel message (God saves or justifies us when we "believe"), but He does need to quicken or regenerate our hearts from spiritual death to spiritual life or we will never respond favorably to the Gospel when we hear it. This is why I believe that regeneration precedes faith. As the Bible tells us plainly, unless one is born again (regenerated) he/she cannot even see the Kingdom of God, much less enter into it .. John 3:3, 5.
~Deut
p.s. - as God tells us:
.........Ezekiel 36
.........26 ..I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you
.........a heart of flesh.
........27 ..I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
.
~Deut
p.s. - as God tells us:
.........Ezekiel 36
.........26 ..I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you
.........a heart of flesh.
........27 ..I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
.
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FGC, I think we should view verse 31 within its wider context, at the very least vv.29-31, "And many other signs truly Jesus did in the presence of His disciples..." then the word "ye" [distinguished]
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Consider also what John 20:9 says, and compared with 1Cor15:1-4 (which is saying must include His resurrection). This does not mean the disciples were not "saved"/"believers".
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Consider also what John 20:9 says, and compared with 1Cor15:1-4 (which is saying must include His resurrection). This does not mean the disciples were not "saved"/"believers".
Now you are beginning to see the true picture. Preaching to the natural person is of no value. If a preacher does preach spiritual truths to a natural person, void of the Spirit, they would think that it was foolish, because they can not discern spiritual things, according to 1 Cor 2:14. However, there is a need for God to have preachers. The inspired word is written to Gods regenerated children as instructions to his children as to how he wants them to live their lives here on earth. The preacher purpose is to instruct. To tell God's children the good news that God has already chosen them and has already made a sacrificial atonement for them by Jesus's death on the cross. The Strong's Greek interpretation of the word salvation, saved, save etc. is "a deliverance". The reason most people fail to harmonize the scriptures is their lack of knowledge to rightly divide the salvation scriptures. There are far more deliverance scriptures that apply to deliverance here on earth than there are that apply to an eternal deliverance. When a child of God commits a sin and ask for forgiveness and God forgives them, they have experienced a deliverance (salvation) from that sin.
My KJV after John 21:29 has a reference note to 1 Pet 1:8 - Peter is talking, in verse 2 to Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and piece, be multiplied. and saying in verse 8, Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory. In reference to John 20:9 and 1 Cor 15:1-4 - saved in 1 Cor 15:2 according to Strong's means, KJV- heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole. Keeping in memory what Paul preached unto them is not the cause of eternal salvation.
I understand what you believe. And that is your faith and truth.
I would say that at one time we were all natural humans who were in the world. Each one of us has our own testimony as to how we came into the faith. I believe if any one of us did so by reading scripture, falling onto such hard times that we dropped to our knees and turned to God, or happened to turn on the TV and listen to a preacher rather than surfing on by, whatever it was that brought us to Christ, we were first that natural person you refer to.
Which means we gleaned the truth through God's grace.
I know someone who was a long distance truck driver for years. His life was in quite a chaotic state when at a motel he happened to open the bedside table drawer and there was the Gideon Bible. Interestingly enough a storm had put the TV on the fritz so he had nothing to distract him till he felt weary enough to go to sleep. Except for that bible.
He read it half through and then got off his bed and dropped to his knees and asked Christ into his life.
After he got up and went to sit back on the bed the TV came on.
He turned it off and finished reading.
I know what you believe. However, I would say God believes in us more than we think we believe in him.
I would say that at one time we were all natural humans who were in the world. Each one of us has our own testimony as to how we came into the faith. I believe if any one of us did so by reading scripture, falling onto such hard times that we dropped to our knees and turned to God, or happened to turn on the TV and listen to a preacher rather than surfing on by, whatever it was that brought us to Christ, we were first that natural person you refer to.
Which means we gleaned the truth through God's grace.
I know someone who was a long distance truck driver for years. His life was in quite a chaotic state when at a motel he happened to open the bedside table drawer and there was the Gideon Bible. Interestingly enough a storm had put the TV on the fritz so he had nothing to distract him till he felt weary enough to go to sleep. Except for that bible.
He read it half through and then got off his bed and dropped to his knees and asked Christ into his life.
After he got up and went to sit back on the bed the TV came on.
He turned it off and finished reading.
I know what you believe. However, I would say God believes in us more than we think we believe in him.
I do understand, and believe the story of your truck driving friend. however, I do believe he was already a regenerated child of God and was, by the Holy Spirit within him, convicted of his sins and asked repentance. Christ was already in his life before ask. If the "asking Jesus to come into his life" was the cause of his eternal deliverance, then that would be eternal deliverance by his good works, and not by God's grace. I believe he was converted on this event and not born again. Being born again ( regenerated) comes first, then conversion. If he was the natural man described in 1 Cor 2:14, The scriptures would have been foolishness unto him.
Acts 13:38-46 [kjv]
"38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by [en, IN] him all [each, singular] that believe are [is] justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
The Gentiles Ask to Hear the Gospel
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
"38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins: 39 And by [en, IN] him all [each, singular] that believe are [is] justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses. 40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
The Gentiles Ask to Hear the Gospel
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath. 43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
But I'm saying that what you are presenting doesn't make sense in light of this:
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/13-38.htm
The text says, "BE IT KNOWN [IMPERATIVE] UNTO YOU [plural Jews, SOME of whom later repent and believe]"... "that by means of this One TO YOU [that same PLURAL 'YOU' (the whole group)] is forgiveness of sins PROCLAIMED"... and then a couple verses later says "BEWARE... LEST..." (why say that?? in your scheme);
...and then in verse 44, "came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God"
https://biblehub.com/text/acts/13-38.htm
The text says, "BE IT KNOWN [IMPERATIVE] UNTO YOU [plural Jews, SOME of whom later repent and believe]"... "that by means of this One TO YOU [that same PLURAL 'YOU' (the whole group)] is forgiveness of sins PROCLAIMED"... and then a couple verses later says "BEWARE... LEST..." (why say that?? in your scheme);
...and then in verse 44, "came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God"
I already addressed that (I think it may have been you, lol, some of you look so much alike, to me, haha):
John 17 [blb] -
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
Prayer for all Believers
20 But I do not ask for these only [i.e. those whom You have given Me], but also for those believing in Me through their word,
John 17 [blb] -
9 I am praying concerning them. I do not pray concerning the world, but concerning those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all things of mine are Yours, and Yours Mine. And I have been glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You.
Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one as we are. 12 When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. And I guarded them, and none of them has perished, except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
13 But now I am coming to You, and I speak these things in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. 14 I have given them Your word, and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I do not ask that You should take them out of the world, but that You should keep them from evil. 16 They are not of the world, as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. 18 As You sent Me into the world, I also sent them into the world; 19 and for them I sanctify Myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth.
Prayer for all Believers
20 But I do not ask for these only [i.e. those whom You have given Me], but also for those believing in Me through their word,
You probably are already aware of the question/arguments surrounding this verse, and its meaning of "[were] arranged [verb]," right?
The question boils down to the fact that it is "Perfect Tense" and the only way [many] people can see THIS meaning, is to [I believe, faultily] conclude it was "in eternity past" (pre-destination to eternal salvation; determinism, "the script has been fully written in EVERY MINUTE DETAIL", etc)
The question boils down to the fact that it is "Perfect Tense" and the only way [many] people can see THIS meaning, is to [I believe, faultily] conclude it was "in eternity past" (pre-destination to eternal salvation; determinism, "the script has been fully written in EVERY MINUTE DETAIL", etc)
^ Now take a look at the word for "be [were/are]" in the following verse:
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-8.htm Matthew 11:8
...sometimes it is "ACTIVE," like in THIS ^ verse (for the time being, set aside the "present tense" of this example verse, I'm focusing on the "ACTIVE" aspect). No one else "is wearing delicate clothes [those 'in kings' houses' weren't actually present in the making of this verse, haha]" but the kings and "those in kings' houses" themselves. lol (that is, ACTIVE).
Same for the "were [active]" word in verse 48, under discussion.
Thus, in the option of "arranged" being either "middle" or "passive," I believe "middle voice" is correct.
So the "arrange" that came BEFORE the "belief" occurred before it, yes (the text/context itself tells us WHEN), but not in "eternity past"
https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/11-8.htm Matthew 11:8
...sometimes it is "ACTIVE," like in THIS ^ verse (for the time being, set aside the "present tense" of this example verse, I'm focusing on the "ACTIVE" aspect). No one else "is wearing delicate clothes [those 'in kings' houses' weren't actually present in the making of this verse, haha]" but the kings and "those in kings' houses" themselves. lol (that is, ACTIVE).
Same for the "were [active]" word in verse 48, under discussion.
Thus, in the option of "arranged" being either "middle" or "passive," I believe "middle voice" is correct.
So the "arrange" that came BEFORE the "belief" occurred before it, yes (the text/context itself tells us WHEN), but not in "eternity past"
Short honest answer. I was dead in more ways than I could say . I was sober for a few years and at the bottom . Honestly being depressed would have been a emotional step up , and suicide wasn’t working. Had been to AA ,never got the God thing . Folks at AA said the Bible had the answers. So there I was . Not sure what I was looking for . It wasn’t God it was just some Just relief . The rest I think you get .
Blessings
Bill
Blessings
Bill