Which Bible Verses Will Prepare You for the Post-Tribulation Rapture (and the Great Tribulation Before That?)

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Then you say the church (believer) will be Raptured up into the clouds at the end of the Tribulation and then turn right around and come back with Jesus at His Second Advent - this makes no sense at all!

Yeah, a lot of people have trouble understanding this part, even among some Post-Tribbers. Pre-Tribbers use this as an excuse to not believe in the Post-Trib Rapture/Gathering.

The explanation I've read about from other Post-Trib believers is that we're all simply gathering to the Lord at a certain meeting spot and then going on from there.

So let's say that you and all your friends have planned to go to the park on a certain day. So the certain day comes and you're already at the park. But the meeting place is just outside the gate. So at the appointed time, all your friends from wherever they were will meet up at the meeting place. Once everyone is accounted for, including you, then you all go into the park as planned, the place you just came from.

So think about when the last trumpet sounds. We all gather (outside the gate) from wherever we are, whether from wherever the Lord is keeping us safe when we die and those who are still alive (those already at the park). But what happens after that? The Lord deals with His/our enemies, which happens to be back here on earth ( going back inside the park).

So it's not really a big deal. I think Pre-Tribbers just try to make a big deal out of it in order to find a lame reason to not accept that the Rapture/Gathering is Post-Trib.


🎡

 

[07-07-07]

Where was the church when they were presented these prophecies?

In there respective cities.

 

[Truthnightmare]

In there respective cities.

Ok… and their cities would be here on earth, not in heaven.

 

[Truthnightmare]

Yeah, a lot of people have trouble understanding this part, even among some Post-Tribbers. Pre-Tribbers use this as an excuse to not believe in the Post-Trib Rapture/Gathering.

The explanation I've read about from other Post-Trib believers is that we're all simply gathering to the Lord at a certain meeting spot and then going on from there.

So let's say that you and all your friends have planned to go to the park on a certain day. So the certain day comes and you're already at the park. But the meeting place is just outside the gate. So at the appointed time, all your friends from wherever they were will meet up at the meeting place. Once everyone is accounted for, including you, then you all go into the park as planned, the place you just came from.

So think about when the last trumpet sounds. We all gather (outside the gate) from wherever we are, whether from wherever the Lord is keeping us safe when we die and those who are still alive (those already at the park). But what happens after that? The Lord deals with His/our enemies, which happens to be back here on earth ( going back inside the park).

So it's not really a big deal. I think Pre-Tribbers just try to make a big deal out of it in order to find a lame reason to not accept that the Rapture/Gathering is Post-Trib.


🎡

So it's not really a big deal.

I hope you are correct, perhaps I’m a bit more cynical in my approach.
I see all that believe in a rapture, placing themselves in grave danger. Some more than others, but dangerous all the same.
Pre- trib believers being the most vulnerable.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Ok… and their cities would be here on earth, not in heaven.

Chapters 2-3 is speaking of "the things WHICH ARE" (of course they received the letters while they were still on the earth--chpts 2-3 are not speaking of the Trib yrs [existing yet at that point]); They received the letters in the first century; and as the 7 letters each say "what the Spirit saith unto the churchES," they are intended for more than just those 7 churches (individually listed in those 2 chpts);



4:1 "AFTER THESE THINGS" (after "the things WHICH ARE" [of chpts 2-3 / "churchES" on the earth])... in chpts 4 onward (thru chpt 19 [& early parts of chpt 20]) is when those in 5:9 are saying "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..." and they are shown UP THERE... sitting on (promised) thrones... are shown wearing the promised "himation leukos"... and are shown wearing the awarded "stephanous / crowns" that Paul had said would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" (and not to him ONLY);


...and the "WAS FOUND" word (5:4) proves that a Searching Judgment has already been concluded (thus also the awarded "crowns"), just like this same phrase [in the bold] is used in the latter chapters of Acts when Paul had been brought before their [human / earthly] BEMA[-seat]; This "WAS FOUND" phrase (among other things I just pointed out) are clear evidences that "the judgment seat [BEMA] of Christ" (which is exclusively FOR/ABOUT/REGARDING "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE *before* Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6) by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (1:1 / 1:19c/ 4:1) that we commonly call the 7-yr Trib.


The evidence is overwhelming.

(Even Geo. E. Ladd [NOT a pre-tribber] had said, if the ones in 5:9 are saying "US," this would HAVE TO BE "the [already-raptured] Church [which is His body]")

 

[Truthnightmare]

Chapters 2-3 is speaking of "the things WHICH ARE" (of course they received the letters while they were still on the earth--chpts 2-3 are not speaking of the Trib yrs [existing yet at that point]); They received the letters in the first century; and as the 7 letters each say "what the Spirit saith unto the churchES," they are intended for more than just those 7 churches (individually listed in those 2 chpts);



4:1 "AFTER THESE THINGS" (after "the things WHICH ARE" [of chpts 2-3 / "churchES" on the earth])... in chpts 4 onward (thru chpt 19 [& early parts of chpt 20]) is when those in 5:9 are saying "hast redeemed US to God by Thy blood OUT-OF EVERY..." and they are shown UP THERE... sitting on (promised) thrones... are shown wearing the promised "himation leukos"... and are shown wearing the awarded "stephanous / crowns" that Paul had said would be awarded "IN THAT DAY" (and not to him ONLY);


...and the "WAS FOUND" word (5:4) proves that a Searching Judgment has already been concluded (thus also the awarded "crowns"), just like this same phrase [in the bold] is used in the latter chapters of Acts when Paul had been brought before their [human / earthly] BEMA[-seat]; This "WAS FOUND" phrase (among other things I just pointed out) are clear evidences that "the judgment seat [BEMA] of Christ" (which is exclusively FOR/ABOUT/REGARDING "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") has ALREADY TAKEN PLACE *before* Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" (Isa3:13; Rev5:6) by His opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period (1:1 / 1:19c/ 4:1) that we commonly call the 7-yr Trib.
The evidence is overwhelming.

(Even Geo. E. Ladd [NOT a pre-tribber] had said, if the ones in 5:9 are saying "US," this would HAVE TO BE "the [already-raptured] Church [which is His body]")

I’m having a bit of trouble understanding your writings; but I believe we can both get our ideas across.

Let’s establish a time frame… the 7 year tribulation comes from
the calculation of weeks and years labeled in Daniel, which equates to 7 a year tribulation. However, Christ shortened the time, it can no longer be 7 years.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ @Truthnightmare ,

yeah, I think I maybe addressed that matter with you (I think it was you??) in a different thread awhile back, where I'd said that I see the word meaning "CURTAILED"... as in, if the years [of such] aren't CURTAILED, no one would survive (they'll be THAT BAD!)... meaning, if they went BEYOND the 7 yrs they are [already] SLATED to last (i.e. prophesied to last), everyone would DIE and then the OT prophecies couldn't be fulfilled (which of course THEY WILL BE!) concerning it.




As to the "7 years [2520 days]," they are not only prophesied (in OT Daniel); but also reaffirmed / reiterated by Jesus in "The Revelation" (95ad or thereabouts), where He not only states in 1:1 "[TO SHEW UNTO...] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (starting with the "SHEW" in 4:1 [1:19c / 1:1])...
...but also by weaving numerous very specific time-stamps AND timing-indicators [not all of them readily apparent at first blush or cursory reading] throughout the ENTIRE chpts (4-19) speaking of / describing the Trib yrs.



IOW, the timing-data in Rev agrees with the prophetic "time-prophecy" already having been supplied in what Daniel had written ("...FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs / 2520 days]")... and is even more specific (in Rev).






(Dan12:1,6-7 is also quite specific, as to the second half... even moreso than the same time-period spoken of in the earlier Dan7:25[,27]--to the point that Israel, when they are IN the trib yrs, will be among the first to grasp its meaning--during a time of GREAT DECEPTION--and can thus be counted as "the WISE" in that chpt [as vv.1-4, 10 speak to--v.1 "thy [Daniel's] people" is the context]... "knowledge shall be increased," as to biblical matters, that is)



Hope that helps you see my perspective. = )

 

[Truthnightmare]

^ @Truthnightmare ,

yeah, I think I maybe addressed that matter with you (I think it was you??) in a different thread awhile back, where I'd said that I see the word meaning "CURTAILED"... as in, if the years [of such] aren't CURTAILED, no one would survive (they'll be THAT BAD!)... meaning, if they went BEYOND the 7 yrs they are [already] SLATED to last (i.e. prophesied to last), everyone would DIE and then the OT prophecies couldn't be fulfilled (which of course THEY WILL BE!) concerning it.




As to the "7 years [2520 days]," they are not only prophesied (in OT Daniel); but also reaffirmed / reiterated by Jesus in "The Revelation" (95ad or thereabouts), where He not only states in 1:1 "[TO SHEW UNTO...] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (starting with the "SHEW" in 4:1 [1:19c / 1:1])...
...but also by weaving numerous very specific time-stamps AND timing-indicators [not all of them readily apparent at first blush or cursory reading] throughout the ENTIRE chpts (4-19) speaking of / describing the Trib yrs.



IOW, the timing-data in Rev agrees with the prophetic "time-prophecy" already having been supplied in what Daniel had written ("...FOR ONE WEEK [7 yrs / 2520 days]")... and is even more specific (in Rev).






(Dan12:1,6-7 is also quite specific, as to the second half... even moreso than the same time-period spoken of in the earlier Dan7:25[,27]--to the point that Israel, when they are IN the trib yrs, will be among the first to grasp its meaning--during a time of GREAT DECEPTION--and can thus be counted as "the WISE" in that chpt [as vv.1-4, 10 speak to--v.1 "thy [Daniel's] people" is the context]... "knowledge shall be increased," as to biblical matters, that is)



Hope that helps you see my perspective. = )

Mark 13:19-21
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: KJV

Did Jesus shorten the days of the tribulation?
And if He did what did He shorten them too?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ 20 And except that the Lord had shortened [/CURTAILED] those days, no flesh should be saved [...]


I'm saying that "CURTAILED" is a legit definition of that word;

so "those days" are CURTAILED in that they will not continue on, lasting beyond those 7 yrs (or else no flesh would survive to enter the MK age in their mortal bodies--which is what the "elect" [in THIS passage] refers to, here, hailing back to the prophecy in Isaiah 27:9,12-13, among others... including Daniel 9:24's own time-prophecy [and equaling Rom11:27]).




IOW, He has A SET TIME [and a SET TIME-FRAME] that, if hadn't been set by Him, and allowed instead to go on further, would result in NO FLESH SURVIVING, coz it will be THAT BAD. But He HAS.




"...the Lord had CURTAILED those days" (to limit them to the 2520 days / 7 yrs [both Dan and Rev are IN AGREEMENT on this!!]... not letting them go beyond this, coz no flesh would survive...)

 

[Truthnightmare]

^ 20 And except that the Lord had shortened [/CURTAILED] those days, no flesh should be saved [...]


I'm saying that "CURTAILED" is a legit definition of that word;

so "those days" are CURTAILED in that they will not continue on, lasting beyond those 7 yrs (or else no flesh would survive to enter the MK age in their mortal bodies--which is what the "elect" [in THIS passage] refers to, here, hailing back to the prophecy in Isaiah 27:9,12-13, among others... including Daniel 9:24's own time-prophecy [and equaling Rom11:27]).




IOW, He has A SET TIME [and a SET TIME-FRAME] that, if hadn't been set by Him, and allowed instead to go on further, would result in NO FLESH SURVIVING, coz it will be THAT BAD. But He HAS.




"...the Lord had CURTAILED those days" (to limit them to the 2520 days / 7 yrs [both Dan and Rev are IN AGREEMENT on this!!]... not letting them go beyond this, coz no flesh would survive...)

^ 20 And except that the Lord had shortened [/CURTAILED] those days, no flesh should be saved [...]


I'm saying that "CURTAILED" is a legit definition of that word;

so "those days" are CURTAILED in that they will not continue on, lasting beyond those 7 yrs (or else no flesh would survive to enter the MK age in their mortal bodies--which is what the "elect" [in THIS passage] refers to, here, hailing back to the prophecy in Isaiah 27:9,12-13, among others... including Daniel 9:24's own time-prophecy [and equaling Rom11:27]).




IOW, He has A SET TIME [and a SET TIME-FRAME] that, if hadn't been set by Him, and allowed instead to go on further, would result in NO FLESH SURVIVING, coz it will be THAT BAD. But He HAS.

so "those days" are CURTAILED in that they will not continue on, lasting beyond those

I respect your position, but that is not what scripture says. We must absorb what the scriptures are saying without adding.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

The 7 years are part of the 70 weeks, the 7 year tribulation was never going to last longer than 7 years, because if you change the 7 years you change the 70 weeks.

We are not allowed to change the 70 weeks or even imply that it would have lasted longer if Jesus didn’t “curtail” it.

Your argument is the 7 year tribulation would have lasted longer if Christ didn’t shorten it.

If that was true then the 70 weeks is null and void, for Daniel wouldn’t have known how long the tribulation was going to be thus he would have not known the time frame to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I'm saying He had already LIMITED IT / CURTAILED IT when originally planned out by God (not "shortened" it from what it HAD been originally).





He's just saying that, if it were any longer (not that it ever could be), NO FLESH WOULD SURVIVE... that's HOW BAD THE CONDITIONS WILL BE.

He's not conveying that anything has changed from its ORIGINAL PLAN / PROPHECY [as to its length / duration]. Not at all.

 

[ewq1938]

Rev 16:2
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial [1st Vial] upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

This surely indicates there are some that have not taken the mark of the beast. Why are they still here? Why have they not been raptured?

No one else is mentioned. The rapture has happened by this time and so has the resurrection so the world will be full; of only the unsaved. Now, it's possible there are some unsaved who didn't take the mark. The bible doesn't say rejection of the mark is a death sentence.

The Post-trib was by far the most popular opinion (among Rapturists) during the time of the Reformation (16th century), but cannot be traced to a specific starting point. There are a lot of variations on this view but in its classic sense post-tribbers seem to believe:

• The church must endure the entire 7-year period, to be Raptured at the end of the Tribulation. God will protect his children through His wrath.

This is in error, but I believe post believers are the closest to the truth out of all Rapture theories. But the theory falls off right at the end. You say that the 'Church' will be here for the setting up of satan's kingdom (Great tribulation) and that they will be here for the time of the false messiah antichrist. Then you say the church (believer) will be Raptured up into the clouds at the end of the Tribulation and then turn right around and come back with Jesus at His Second Advent - this makes no sense at all!

It does when you know the purpose of the rapture. There will be living Christian survivors of the Great Tribulation. But they won't be in just one location which is why they need to be gathered together and then taken to a new location. They will be caught up to the clouds from where ever each person is and all will arrive at one place in the clouds. That's how they are made to be "together", as well as together with them that were already in the clouds waiting for them. Then all will descend from the clouds as Christ makes completes the second coming, especially Armageddon and surrounding events. This also allows them to join his heavenly army rather than being gathered and taken to an Earthly location to meet Christ and his army. Meeting in the clouds allows for a full and uniform army to follow Christ downwards.

You undoubtedly feel that only a portion of the people on the planet (the 'Church') will be removed before the wrath of God, which in fact commences the "Day of the Lord." But there is no selective removal before God's wrath is executed on the ungodly. The 'Church' witnesses the destruction of the ungodly but is itself protected from it. Observe this Scripture showing that some are destroyed while others yet REMAIN and witness that destruction of the ungodly: "And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven." {Rev 11:13}.

That event takes place before the 7th trump, before the rapture happens.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
The Seventh Trumpet
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Truthnightmare]

No one else is mentioned. The rapture has happened by this time and so has the resurrection so the world will be full; of only the unsaved. Now, it's possible there are some unsaved who didn't take the mark. The bible doesn't say rejection of the mark is a death sentence.

It does when you know the purpose of the rapture. There will be living Christian survivors of the Great Tribulation. But they won't be in just one location which is why they need to be gathered together and then taken to a new location. They will be caught up to the clouds from where ever each person is and all will arrive at one place in the clouds. That's how they are made to be "together", as well as together with them that were already in the clouds waiting for them. Then all will descend from the clouds as Christ makes completes the second coming, especially Armageddon and surrounding events. This also allows them to join his heavenly army rather than being gathered and taken to an Earthly location to meet Christ and his army. Meeting in the clouds allows for a full and uniform army to follow Christ downwards.





That event takes place before the 7th trump, before the rapture happens.

Rev 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
Rev 11:14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
The Seventh Trumpet
Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image

No one else is mentioned.

There is no need to mention anyone, we know they’re others there.

Rev13:5 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

The rapture has happened by this time and so has the resurrection so the world will be full; of only the unsaved.

Later in this very chapter, these words are said.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

If there are only unsaved on earth who is Jesus talking about?

You were told to stay working and keep watch, until the Lord returns. You were not instructed to meet the Lord half way and return with Him.

It doesn’t matter what reason people come up with for leaving there post… As a Christian if you are not here when Christ returns, you have only been raptured in your mind, a matrix.









:

 

[ewq1938]

And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image




There is no need to mention anyone, we know they’re others there.

The only people in the world are the unsaved at that time.

Later in this very chapter, these words are said.
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

If there are only unsaved on earth who is Jesus talking about?

The people reading.

You were told to stay working and keep watch, until the Lord returns. You were not instructed to meet the Lord half way and return with Him.

That's UNTIL the Lord returns...then something happens to the watchers.


Do you reject what Paul taught?

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It doesn’t matter what reason people come up with for leaving there post… As a Christian if you are not here when Christ returns, you have only been raptured in your mind, a matrix.

The saved who survived the trib will be here when Christ returns then the Harpazo happens.







:

 

[Truthnightmare]

The only people in the world are the unsaved at that time.




The people reading.




That's UNTIL the Lord returns...then something happens to the watchers.


Do you reject what Paul taught?

1Th_4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.





The saved who survived the trib will be here when Christ returns then the Harpazo happens.

:

The only people in the world are the unsaved at that time.

Ok…. But let’s be consistent in our evaluation. By that logic…

Revelation 9
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The only people in the world at this time are people with the seal of God, since no one else is mentioned.

That's UNTIL the Lord returns...then something happens to the watchers.

Hell yea, at the blink of an eye the watchers and every one else on earth are changed.

Do you reject what Paul taught?

Of course not… Paul taught that Christ would return, and we would be gathered together in a group, and changed into our spiritual body’s.


3 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope

The subject is “those that sleep” the object is to give us information on the subject so we are not sad… Lets not change that.

We must agree we are talking about those who are asleep and not a rapture.

 

[ewq1938]

Ok…. But let’s be consistent in our evaluation. By that logic…

Revelation 9
And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The only people in the world at this time are people with the seal of God, since no one else is mentioned.

There is no rapture of a group of people at that time so the comparison doesn't work plus I already said there is a possibility for there being unsaved that didn't take the mark.

Hell yea, at the blink of an eye the watchers and every one else on earth are changed.

Only the saved, not anyone else.

Of course not… Paul taught that Christ would return, and we would be gathered together in a group, and changed into our spiritual body’s.


3 But I would not have you to be ignorant#1, brethren, concerning them which are asleep that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope

The subject is “those that sleep” the object is to give us information on the subject so we are not sad… Lets not change that.

We must agree we are talking about those who are asleep and not a rapture.

Paul wrote about the rapture so there is one. The only thing is figuring out when that rapture happens. Paul also wrote about other things and people not just about those who were asleep/dead.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


That's the rapture. It happens to those who are still alive when the Coming happens.

 

[Truthnightmare]

There is no rapture of a group of people at that time so the comparison doesn't work plus I already said there is a possibility for there being unsaved that didn't take the mark.






Only the saved, not anyone else.






Paul wrote about the rapture so there is one. The only thing is figuring out when that rapture happens. Paul also wrote about other things and people not just about those who were asleep/dead.

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


That's the rapture. It happens to those who are still alive when the Coming happens.

Hebrews 12:1
Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

Is this referring to a mass of water drops or ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Is this referring to a mass of water drops or ice crystals suspended in the atmosphere?

More silliness.

 

[Truthnightmare]

More silliness.

More? So you feel my previous questions or ideas are silly? Why have you not said anything until now? And what makes the question above silly,
The notion being presented is Christian’s will be raptured to/in literal clouds. All I did is confirm the idea by specifying what a literal cloud is, if you have a problem with that your fight is with meteorology not me.
Moreover; those of lesser intelligence often consider words of the wise silly…

Furthermore;
17 Then#1 we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them#2 in the clouds#3, to meet the Lord in the air#4:

Explanation of above: #1Then: = When?? - At the seventh trump! {Rev 11:15} - at the Second Advent of Jesus Christ. #2 with them: = Who?? - Those who are already in their spirit bodies - Those who died in the flesh from the beginning of time, who went instantly went back to the Father at the time of their individual deaths. So far so good, now the interpretation of the next two words ('clouds' and 'air') are the 'foundation' [built on sand] of their Rapture doctrines. A whole doctrine built up around two words taken out of context! #3 clouds: = The Rapturist believes this 'clouds' to be like 'rain clouds.' Language lexicons are of little help with this word as it ultimately has two different meanings:

clouds: Greek word #3507 nephele (nef-el'-ay); from #3509; properly, cloudiness, i.e. (concretely) a cloud.
Cloud: #3509 nephos- a cloud, a large dense multitude, a throng; a). used to denote a great shapeless collection of vapor obscuring the heavens as opposed to a particular and definite masses of vapor with some form or shape; b). a cloud in the sky​

Above we see that the word can mean either a 'cloud in the sky' or a dense multitude or throng (of people). As I said, the Lexicons are not specific enough here for us to 'hang our hat on,' so to speak. However, there is another resource available to us to secure the proper meaning of the word 'cloud' as it is used here, and that is Scripture itself. We shall let the Bible translate itself. The word "Cloud" #3509 'nephos' whence comes our word 'clouds' is used in only one place in the entire Bible, this will remove any ambiguity with the word usage.
Apostle Paul wrote our Scripture here in 1st Thessalonians, he also wrote the book of Hebrews. It is in the book of Hebrews that Paul used the word "cloud #3509." Paul was a Hebrew from the Tribe of Benjamin, but he also spoke Greek and was a naturalized Roman citizen. However, the Greek he spoke was colloquial Greek (or 'street Greek'​

Heb 12:1 (Paul's use of the word 'cloud' as a figure of speech)
1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us (KJV)​

Like I said, Paul was using a colloquialism (figure of speech). Paul no more meant that those would meet Jesus in a 'rain cloud' than he meant that the people above would stage a foot-race on a 'rain-cloud.' The use of the word 'cloud' or 'clouds' in these two Scriptures means a crowd, a great multitude, a vast collection, or dense for multitude of people, as in a "cloud of locusts," or, a "cloud of mosquitoes."
Also, when Jesus Christ returns at his second Advent he will be accompanied by an innumerable host of Angels {Rev 19:11-16}. Below, that innumerable host of Angels is referred to as 'clouds.' Jesus isn't coming on or in water clouds, He is coming with clouds of Angels, so many that they will cloud the sky and can not be counted for their multitude:

Rev 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (KJV)​

Ok, now our last word in this Scripture: #4 air: But the word doesn't mean 'air' like in the sky (for you even have 'air' in your basement). But rather it is the spirit of life air, the pneuma, as in a pneumatic tire (whence we get the word pneumatic). It is the animation of the body, the life, the spirit. In the Hebrew of the Old Testament this word finds it's equivalent in 'neshamah,' which is what God blew into Adam's nostrils and he became a living being. The word means "the breath of life." Below we shall provide definitions in both Greek and Hebrew of this "breath of life" or "spirit":

Air: Greek word #109 aer (ah-ayr'); from aemi (to breathe unconsciously, i.e. respire; by analogy, to blow); "air" (as naturally circumambient)​

This is what God did into Adams nostrils, and through Christ we shall have the "breath of eternal life." The Hebrew counterpart for this word is:

breath of (life): Hebrew word #5397 neshamah (nesh-aw-maw'); from 5395; a puff, i.e. wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect. or (concretely) an animal: KJV-- blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit. Neshamah - The breath, the spirit; a) the breath (of God) b) the breath (of man) c) every breathing thing d) the spirit (of man).​

Observe below:

Gen 2:7
7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. (KJV)​

Anyhow, I care not if you find my speech silly, people on this very forum, much, much, much smarter than you don’t.

 

[07-07-07]

Ok… and their cities would be here on earth, not in heaven.

Yes, but after Chapter 3, there is no more mention of the Churches, just the tribulation Saints. Where are the Churches? It makes a good case for the pre-tribulation Rapture.