When Has God Gathered After He Scattered Without Any Repentance?

[Guojing]

Prophecies are conditional. Zechariah's prophecy to Israel was on condition that they would get their act together and announce to the world the arrival of the Messiah in Bethlehem.

They blew it, and thus God could not fulfill His promises to them. Good gravy, man, Jesus HIMSELF said that the kingdom was to be "taken from them and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof" which is the church. Sure, certain elements of Zechariah's prophecy will be fulfilled by the church, just as Jonah's prophecy went unfulfilled, but eventually Nineveh was destroyed at a much later date.

Would you consider what you are saying here as replacement theology?

 

[Phoneman-777]

Would you consider what you are saying here as replacement theology?

Well, the 70 Weeks were a probationary period for Israel get their act together, as evidenced by Jesus’ anointing in baptism marking the end of the 69th and the commencement of the 70th.

At that time, He gathered His disciples and explicitly told them don’t preach to anyone but Jews, constantly WARNING them for 3 1/2 years if they didn’t get it together, they’d lose their privileged position, even saying “the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to” others.

Even after they crucified Him, He STILL GAVE THEM the remaining 3 1/2 years of the prophecy to repent and avert disaster — which culminated instead with their official, corporate rejection of Him marked by the stoning to death of Stephen by their OWN hands. Immediately afterward, Saul got knocked off his horse and the Gospel went to the Gentiles - and the warning of national ruin eventually came horribly to pass.

I don’t understand how people can argue Romans 11 is “proof” of the restoration of literal Israel when Isaiah and Jesus spoke of their total destruction, not of restoration. Romans 11 speaks of individual gathering of Jews to Spiritual Israel, the church. Literal Israel to this day is not restored - its border is a tiny fraction of the former, the people have not repented of rejecting and murdering Jesus and thus left God’s gathering hands tied, only those who belong to Christ are “Abraham’s seed” and Paul plainly says “all the promises to the (Israelite) fathers are yea and amen in” Jesus.

 

[Guojing]

Well, the 70 Weeks were a probationary period for Israel get their act together, as evidenced by Jesus’ anointing in baptism marking the end of the 69th and the commencement of the 70th.

At that time, He gathered His disciples and explicitly told them don’t preach to anyone but Jews, constantly WARNING them for 3 1/2 years if they didn’t get it together, they’d lose their privileged position, even saying “the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to” others.

Even after they crucified Him, He STILL GAVE THEM the remaining 3 1/2 years of the prophecy to repent and avert disaster — which culminated instead with their official, corporate rejection of Him marked by the stoning to death of Stephen by their OWN hands. Immediately afterward, Saul got knocked off his horse and the Gospel went to the Gentiles - and the warning of national ruin eventually came horribly to pass.

I don’t understand how people can argue Romans 11 is “proof” of the restoration of literal Israel when Isaiah and Jesus spoke of their total destruction, not of restoration. Romans 11 speaks of individual gathering of Jews to Spiritual Israel, the church. Literal Israel to this day is not restored - its border is a tiny fraction of the former, the people have not repented of rejecting and murdering Jesus and thus left God’s gathering hands tied, only those who belong to Christ are “Abraham’s seed” and Paul plainly says “all the promises to the (Israelite) fathers are yea and amen in” Jesus.

The only problem with your interpretation is that, God's promise to Abraham and his descendants, regarding the land that they will possess, in an unconditional promise.

It does not depend on how Israel performed, as what Paul stated in Romans 11:28-29

28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

 

[Kolistus]

So, exactly what does that have to do with God's explicitly stated requirement that His people repent of whatever caused Him to scatter them before He would gather them? Last time I checked, "Israel" has not repented.

Isaiah:
5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; [and] break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts [is] the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Matthew:
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Can you believe how "anti-Semitic" Jesus was toward His "elect" people???

Can you proof somewhere that prophecy is "conditional"? What about the 144 000 israelites in Revelation? What about Zechariah 14?

 

[Phoneman-777]

The only problem with your interpretation is that, God's promise to Abraham and his descendants, regarding the land that they will possess, in an unconditional promise

Question: Exactly who are Abraham’s descendants?

“And IF ye be Christ’s, THEN are ye Abraham’s seed and heirs, according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 KJV


See that? God’s promises are NEVER without condition. Literal “Israel” failed to meet the condition, and thus lost forever their status as “chosen”.

 

[Guojing]

Question: Exactly who are Abraham’s descendants?

“And IF ye be Christ’s, THEN are ye Abraham’s seed and heirs, according to the promise.” Galatians 3:29 KJV


See that? God’s promises are NEVER without condition. Literal “Israel” failed to meet the condition, and thus lost forever their status as “chosen”.

Paul is speaking to us gentiles there, we are in Christ because we are in the body of Christ. You should not use that to make inferences towards the nation Israel.

If what you said in your last paragraph is correct, what do you think Paul meant in Romans 11:28-29, the scripture that I quoted?

 

[Journeyman]

Prophecies are conditional. Zechariah's prophecy to Israel was on condition that they would get their act together and announce to the world the arrival of the Messiah in Bethlehem.

The Jews did, as missionaries, announce the Messiah to the world and they still speak through their writings, just as the Prophets,

All scripture is given by inspiration of God 2Tim.3:16

he being dead yet speaketh. Heb.11:4

 

[Sipsey]

Replacement theology-plain and simple. It’s nothing new, and it requires a distorted view of prophesy, and end times.

 

[Phoneman-777]

Can you proof somewhere that prophecy is "conditional"? What about the 144 000 israelites in Revelation? What about Zechariah 14?

God told Jonah to tell Nineveh in 40 days they were done...but because they repented, no destruction came, right?

The 144,000 is a symbolic number in the most symbolic book of Scripture because the same group of people - the redeemed - are described as both 144,000 and a “multitude which no man could number” in chapters 7 and 14.

The fulfillment of Zechariah 14 was on condition the Israelites would get busy serving God and preparing the way for Jesus - they crucified Him.

 

[Journeyman]

Would you consider what you are saying here as replacement theology?

You seem to want to replace faith for race. It won't work,

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, "and to the descendants," referring to many, but "and to your descendant," referring to one, who is Christ. Gal.3:16

God made a promise to his Son. He also promised believers,

For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Rom.4:3

 

[Phoneman-777]

The Jews did, as missionaries, announce the Messiah to the world and they still speak through their writings, just as the Prophets,

All scripture is given by inspiration of God 2Tim.3:16

he being dead yet speaketh. Heb.11:4

Not accusing you of this, but the same people who claim a Christian who turns his back on Christ and ends up in the Lake of Fire “was never saved to begin with” will say those who condemned their Messiah to death got credit for the heralding work of the prophets before them.

 

[Guojing]

You seem to want to replace faith for race. It won't work,

Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his descendant. Scripture does not say, "and to the descendants," referring to many, but "and to your descendant," referring to one, who is Christ. Gal.3:16

God made a promise to his Son. He also promised believers,

For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Rom.4:3

So you also think Israel, the nation, has been permanently abandoned by God?

They will believe at the end of the Tribulation, so yeah, they will also show faith.

 

[Kolistus]

God told Jonah to tell Nineveh in 40 days they were done...but because they repented, no destruction came, right?

True. This is actually true.

The fulfillment of Zechariah 14 was on condition the Israelites would get busy serving God and preparing the way for Jesus - they crucified Him.

Proof?

 

[Journeyman]

Not accusing you of this, but the same people who claim a Christian who turns his back on Christ and ends up in the Lake of Fire “was never saved to begin with” will say those who condemned their Messiah to death got credit for the heralding work of the prophets before them.

There are people who say they believe in our Lord, but don't. God will decide who does, or doesn't.

We owe the Jewish people a great deal, because they proclaimed our Savior to the world. Read the Prophets this way, no matter what the prophecy is.

Jesus is not coming back here to once again send the the Jewish people out to teach the world about God. He has and continues to do that now.

 

[Evmur]

So, exactly what does that have to do with God's explicitly stated requirement that His people repent of whatever caused Him to scatter them before He would gather them? Last time I checked, "Israel" has not repented.

Isaiah:
5:5 And now go to; I will tell you what I will do to my vineyard: I will take away the hedge thereof, and it shall be eaten up; [and] break down the wall thereof, and it shall be trodden down:
5:6 And I will lay it waste: it shall not be pruned, nor digged; but there shall come up briers and thorns: I will also command the clouds that they rain no rain upon it.
5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts [is] the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

Matthew:
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Can you believe how "anti-Semitic" Jesus was toward His "elect" people???

It is no good just cherry picking quotes that is devil's work, Jesus was speaking to that generation of Jewish leaders who were lackeys to the Romans.

You have to balance these quotes with those which foretell their restoration.

 

[Evmur]

Brother,
Gods people are believers, whether Jew or gentile,

What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded Rom.11:7

It was never Gods will for his Son to be killed. It was Gods will to show just how much men hate him and his love for us in spite of it.

Why not balance out your negative quote from Romans?

Romans.25

Lest ye be wise in your own conceits

I want YOU to understand this mystery brethren, a hardening has come upon part of Israel UNTIL the full number of the Gentiles come in 26. and so ALL Israel will be saved.

The scripture says that Christ was given up to be crucified according to God's predeterminate plan. Jesus came to give His life a ransom.

 

[Journeyman]

So you also think Israel, the nation, has been permanently abandoned by God?

Of course not, but you need to stop identifying every Jew with "the Nation".

say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite Rom.11:1

But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men Rom.11:4

Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. Rom.11:5

At this present time, such as Paul, the other Apostles and all the Jews who who believe in Jesus. Please look at what he's saying.

They will believe at the end of the Tribulation, so yeah, they will also show faith.

He's recovering the remnant of Israel now.

 

[Journeyman]

Why not balance out your negative quote from Romans?

Romans.25

Lest ye be wise in your own conceits

I want YOU to understand this mystery brethren, a hardening has come upon part of Israel UNTIL the full number of the Gentiles come in 26. and so ALL Israel will be saved.

Paul is saying believing Jews + believing gentiles = all Israel. It was a mystery.

I'm not being conceited. Will you please look at the urgency and seriousness of Paul's words? Unbelieving Jews need to be grafted in now, not after Jesus returns.

The scripture says that Christ was given up to be crucified according to God's predeterminate plan. Jesus came to give His life a ransom.

Yes. Instead of coming and condemning sinner who brutally mistreated him, he patiently endured abuse to "ransom" sinners from death.

 

[Phoneman-777]

So you also think Israel, the nation, has been permanently abandoned by God?

They will believe at the end of the Tribulation, so yeah, they will also show faith.

It's no secret that I reject the whole idea of slicing off 7 years from the 70 Weeks prophecy and sending it down to the end of time as "the seven years of tribulation" and placing a "gap" in between...for two reasons: 1) it's a totally subjective idea not supported anywhere in Scripture, and 2) no other Numerically Specific Time Prophecy in all of Scripture is chopped up in this fashion:
Noah's 120 years was 120 years.

Israel's 400 years of bondage was 400 years.

Israel's 40 years of wandering was 40 years.

Ezekiel's 390 and 40 days were just that.

Daniel's 490 "days", or years, lasted from 457 B.C. when Artaxerxes' comprehensive decree went forth until 27 A.D. when Jesus was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit right on time, in what archaeology has confirmed as "the 15th year reign of Tiberius Caesar".

Jesus' three days of death, burial and resurrection were three days.

Moreover, Peter says when Jesus comes "as a thief in the night", there'll not be seven more minutes of anything going on down here, much less seven more years with the kind of destruction that will accompany Him. So, although God loves Jews and is willing to save them individually, the promises of the Israelite fathers now belong to the "seed of Abraham", the church which belongs to Christ, according to Galatians 3:29 KJV

 

[Guojing]

It's no secret that I reject the whole idea of slicing off 7 years from the 70 Weeks prophecy and sending it down to the end of time as "the seven years of tribulation" and placing a "gap" in between...for two reasons: 1) it's a totally subjective idea not supported anywhere in Scripture, and 2) no other Numerically Specific Time Prophecy in all of Scripture is chopped up in this fashion: Noah's 120 years was 120 years. Israel's 400 years of bondage was 400 years. Israel's 40 years of wandering was 40 years. Ezekiel's 390 and 40 days were just that. Daniel's 490 "days", or years, lasted from 457 B.C. when Artaxerxes' comprehensive decree went forth until 27 A.D. when Jesus was baptized and anointed with the Holy Spirit right on time, in what archaeology has confirmed as "the 15th year reign of Tiberius Caesar".

Moreover, Peter says when Jesus comes "as a thief in the night", there'll not be seven more minutes of anything going on down here, much less seven more years with the kind of destruction that will accompany Him. So, although God loves Jews and is willing to save them individually, the promises of the Israelite fathers now belong to the "seed of Abraham", the church which belongs to Christ, according to Galatians 3:29 KJV

Well, at least you are confident enough in your doctrine to state that you do believe in replacement theology.

Even though I disagree with that, I can respect the clarity of your stance.