When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?
- Thread starter lamad
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To open the seals on THIS book required a man who could and did rise from the dead to become our Redeemer. Before He rose from the dead, He was under the earth.
I think you missed the point God was making in hinting that Jesus was "in transit." I think the point was that to be qualified to open the seals one must become the redeemer by death and resurrection as Paul laid out in His gospel. If we follow the story line:
He was not seen at the right hand of the father because it was during the 32 years He was on earth.
The Holy Spirit was still in heaven because Jesus and not ascended to send Him down.
Jesus was not found worthy to open the seals in that first search because either He had not yet died or had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer.
Then time passed, Jesus died and rose from the dead, and ascended, then sent the Holy Spirit down. He had fulfilled all that was necessary to redeem mankind.
I think you missed the point God was making in hinting that Jesus was "in transit." I think the point was that to be qualified to open the seals one must become the redeemer by death and resurrection as Paul laid out in His gospel. If we follow the story line:
He was not seen at the right hand of the father because it was during the 32 years He was on earth.
The Holy Spirit was still in heaven because Jesus and not ascended to send Him down.
Jesus was not found worthy to open the seals in that first search because either He had not yet died or had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer.
Then time passed, Jesus died and rose from the dead, and ascended, then sent the Holy Spirit down. He had fulfilled all that was necessary to redeem mankind.
scripture is explicit in that God hides Himself.
you take "none was found worthy" to mean God is unworthy, which is blasphemy.
i take "none was found worthy" to mean God had hidden Himself. that's both consistent with scripture, and it's explicitly said in scripture. it's true.
so we've got 2 choices:
you take "none was found worthy" to mean God is unworthy, which is blasphemy.
i take "none was found worthy" to mean God had hidden Himself. that's both consistent with scripture, and it's explicitly said in scripture. it's true.
so we've got 2 choices:
- your blasphemy inconsistent with scripture
- my view that honors God and is consistent with scripture
And during his ascension he was above the Earth.
That is an obvious fact that everyone understands.
That doesn't match the context of the passage. The search was not for 32 years. It was for a brief moment, before Christ arrived and sudden;y he arrived and the search for a worthy man was over instantly.
Any doctrine that deems Christ was ever unworthy is a bad doctrine, period.
That is an obvious fact that everyone understands.
That doesn't match the context of the passage. The search was not for 32 years. It was for a brief moment, before Christ arrived and sudden;y he arrived and the search for a worthy man was over instantly.
Any doctrine that deems Christ was ever unworthy is a bad doctrine, period.
I was going to try to "draw a picture" to help illustrate (what I've been pointing out) but I couldn't quite get my words right, to make "the picture" stand out in just the right way I hoped it would...
... but I see that Oseas3 (in his Post #265, on the previous page) has done a really great job doing so! (of the same thing I was struggling to put forth, for your consideration).
I hope you will consider his post again.
... but I see that Oseas3 (in his Post #265, on the previous page) has done a really great job doing so! (of the same thing I was struggling to put forth, for your consideration).
I hope you will consider his post again.
I was going to try to "draw a picture" to help illustrate (what I've been pointing out) but I couldn't quite get my words right, to make "the picture" stand out in just the right way I hoped it would...
... but I see that Oseas3 (in his Post #265, on the previous page) has done a really great job doing so! (of the same thing I was struggling to put forth, for your consideration).
I hope you will consider his post again.
... but I see that Oseas3 (in his Post #265, on the previous page) has done a really great job doing so! (of the same thing I was struggling to put forth, for your consideration).
I hope you will consider his post again.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are One:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in One; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
2 Timothy 2:v.19 - Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are His. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
There is no (NONE) scripture to even hint that hiding is why Jesus was not found worthy to open the seals in that first search. That was just human reasoning on your part. If you were to read ahead and find the real reason, you would see why it was a red herring. Also a non sequitur.
“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for [because] you were slain [slaughtered, killed] , and by your blood you ransomed [purchased] people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,"
He was not "hiding!" He was slaughtered as the passover Lamb. Then He rose.
The REAL two choices:
so we've got 2 choices:
The Holy Spirit NOT sent down (Jesus not yet ascended to send Him down)
Jesus NOT Found in a search for one worthy to open the seals (He had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer)
Jesus FOUND (After time passes and Jesus rose from the dead)
Jesus ascended ( right after sending Mary away)
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down (As soon as He ascended.)
2. Pull the verse out of its context, compare it with others that don't fit. (Imagine different reasons why Jesus might possibly not be found worthy - out of context reasons - ANYTHING to prove Lamad wrong! ANYTHING but just believe the text as written and in context.
“Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for [because] you were slain [slaughtered, killed] , and by your blood you ransomed [purchased] people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation,"
He was not "hiding!" He was slaughtered as the passover Lamb. Then He rose.
The REAL two choices:
so we've got 2 choices:
- follow the CONTEXT and refuse to pull a verse out of its context.
The Holy Spirit NOT sent down (Jesus not yet ascended to send Him down)
Jesus NOT Found in a search for one worthy to open the seals (He had not yet risen from the dead to become the Redeemer)
Jesus FOUND (After time passes and Jesus rose from the dead)
Jesus ascended ( right after sending Mary away)
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down (As soon as He ascended.)
2. Pull the verse out of its context, compare it with others that don't fit. (Imagine different reasons why Jesus might possibly not be found worthy - out of context reasons - ANYTHING to prove Lamad wrong! ANYTHING but just believe the text as written and in context.
This shows me you are not reading the passage right. It does not say a brief moment: it says John wept MUCH. Have you asked God why He included "much?" I did.
What you are missing: TIME. The first words from Jesus teaching me these chapters and about John weeping was, IT SHOWS TIMING, and after a couple of more week, "IT ALSO SHOWS THE MOVEMENT OF TIME."
You all seem to MISS the movement of time. What God is showing is simple: at the time of the first search NO HUMAN BEING was qualified to take the book and open the seal. No human being would include Jesus Christ. WHY? Very simple, His work of redemption was NOT COMPLETE until He rose from the dead! Again read the words of Paul:
1 Cor. 15:17 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. [Redemption not complete]
Do you SEE IT? Christ's work of redemption was not complete UNTIL He rose from the dead. Now, follow the text:
"the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."
What did Christ "prevail" over that no other man has, to become the Redeemer? He had to prevail over death. How about a week BEFORE He "prevailed?" Would His work as the Redeemer have been complete? No, according to Paul we would still be in our sins and be the most miserable of people. God is not saying that there was seconds between not found and found. John wept MUCH - it could have been weeks. It could have been days. It could have been hours. The point God is making is, SOMETHING CHANGED as time passed and another search was conducted. In fact, the way this passage is written, several searches could have taken place between these two. Now, follow the text: why guess or reason when God TELLS US?
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for [because] thou wast slain, [slaughtered as the Passover lamb, killed] and hast redeemed [purchased] us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
It has nothing to do with hiding, or "in transit."
He was not seen in heaven (because He was on earth)
The Holy Spirit was still in heaven (because He had not yet risen)
Jesus was NOT found (because at that point in time He had not yet rise from the dead.)
Jesus in a later search WAS found (because He had by this time risen from the dead.)
Jesus ascended (after sending Mary away.)
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down.
Leaving everything in context tells a story of TIME and timing. Jesus got the book as soon as He ascended.
(I could take the time to show scriptures from the gospel's following John's timeline here, but you all know He died on a cross, was buried, and three days later rose from the dead, and very soon after speaking to Mary ascended.) God's purpose in this story is to show the readers the TIMING of the opening of the first seal.
What you are missing: TIME. The first words from Jesus teaching me these chapters and about John weeping was, IT SHOWS TIMING, and after a couple of more week, "IT ALSO SHOWS THE MOVEMENT OF TIME."
You all seem to MISS the movement of time. What God is showing is simple: at the time of the first search NO HUMAN BEING was qualified to take the book and open the seal. No human being would include Jesus Christ. WHY? Very simple, His work of redemption was NOT COMPLETE until He rose from the dead! Again read the words of Paul:
1 Cor. 15:17 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. [Redemption not complete]
Do you SEE IT? Christ's work of redemption was not complete UNTIL He rose from the dead. Now, follow the text:
"the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof."
What did Christ "prevail" over that no other man has, to become the Redeemer? He had to prevail over death. How about a week BEFORE He "prevailed?" Would His work as the Redeemer have been complete? No, according to Paul we would still be in our sins and be the most miserable of people. God is not saying that there was seconds between not found and found. John wept MUCH - it could have been weeks. It could have been days. It could have been hours. The point God is making is, SOMETHING CHANGED as time passed and another search was conducted. In fact, the way this passage is written, several searches could have taken place between these two. Now, follow the text: why guess or reason when God TELLS US?
Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for [because] thou wast slain, [slaughtered as the Passover lamb, killed] and hast redeemed [purchased] us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
It has nothing to do with hiding, or "in transit."
He was not seen in heaven (because He was on earth)
The Holy Spirit was still in heaven (because He had not yet risen)
Jesus was NOT found (because at that point in time He had not yet rise from the dead.)
Jesus in a later search WAS found (because He had by this time risen from the dead.)
Jesus ascended (after sending Mary away.)
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down.
Leaving everything in context tells a story of TIME and timing. Jesus got the book as soon as He ascended.
(I could take the time to show scriptures from the gospel's following John's timeline here, but you all know He died on a cross, was buried, and three days later rose from the dead, and very soon after speaking to Mary ascended.) God's purpose in this story is to show the readers the TIMING of the opening of the first seal.
I was going to try to "draw a picture" to help illustrate (what I've been pointing out) but I couldn't quite get my words right, to make "the picture" stand out in just the right way I hoped it would...
... but I see that Oseas3 (in his Post #265, on the previous page) has done a really great job doing so! (of the same thing I was struggling to put forth, for your consideration).
I hope you will consider his post again.
... but I see that Oseas3 (in his Post #265, on the previous page) has done a really great job doing so! (of the same thing I was struggling to put forth, for your consideration).
I hope you will consider his post again.
"There was a large and immense crowd in the heavenly environment
The question was yet sounding to the crowd
verses 11 to 14"
He is rearranging the text to fit a theory! This is a no no! The question was asked in verse 2 and was asked in heaven, on earth and under the earth, NOT in front of the crowd shown later.
Next:
"THE WRONG CONCEPTION OF THE APOSTLE JOHN, THE GUEST
verses 3 and 4 "
How funny! JOHN WAS WRONG! TDW, you should know better! John was NOT wrong! The truth is, at that point in time NO MAN ANYWHERE was qualified to take the book and open the seals. Read my other posts to see the real reason why.
You aren't reading the passage right. It says MUCH not LONG. You can cried MUCH in a short period of time.
No, he was not found in those three places because he was in another place. Do you have any idea how many more places there are besides heaven, the Earth and below the Earth?
There is no second search in the passsage. Jesus shows up and he is automatically qualified to open the seals which he proceeds to do.
Exactly what I have been saying. It also proves that he hadn't yet ascended when they searched for a worthy person.
No, he was not found in those three places because he was in another place. Do you have any idea how many more places there are besides heaven, the Earth and below the Earth?
There is no second search in the passsage. Jesus shows up and he is automatically qualified to open the seals which he proceeds to do.
Exactly what I have been saying. It also proves that he hadn't yet ascended when they searched for a worthy person.
I will stick with much. But how long can it be before someone raises from the dead to the time He raises from the dead? It could be seconds or it could be days.
How long would it take this angel to search all over heaven? Does he just make an announcement and wait to see if anyone answers? We don't know because John does not tell us. Since Jesus was found in a subsequent search (the first search ended in failure) The search for heaven and on earth had to have been completed. That means TIME. The real point is not how long John cried: it is WHY He cried: that search he watched ended in failure: "no man or one was found." The real question is, WHY was Jesus not found in the first search. I take the simplest answer right out of the book. He was found later because He prevailed. What? He prevailed ascending to heaven - in transit? Sorry, does not fit. One thing we all know Jesus prevailed over and that was DEATH.
The very fact that John was weeping and wrote what he did proves that first search ended. Why would John write "no man was found" if the search was still ongoing? Why would Jesus say to me, "Why was I not found in that first search? Jesus question to me follows exactly what John wrote. The fact that Jesus was found later shows us another search was started: presumably the same way, heaven, earth, then under the earth.
No, sorry! NO "showing up" in the text. What is written is, He "hath prevailed to open the book." No "automatic qualifications either: what is written is that HE PREVAILED.
If we back up from His ascension, we find Him talking to Mary. If we back up further, we find He just rose from the dead. Since rising from the dead FITS "prevailing" why just just believe it? Why disagree so much over this?
FINALLY! Something that fits the text! It seems we can agree on one point! But from the rest of scriptures, what happened BEFORE He ascended? Mary, remember? And before that? He arose.
It just makes sense that if we back up to before He arose, He had not at that time completed everything necessary to become the Redeemer. You DO believe there was a time before He arose?
How long would it take this angel to search all over heaven? Does he just make an announcement and wait to see if anyone answers? We don't know because John does not tell us. Since Jesus was found in a subsequent search (the first search ended in failure) The search for heaven and on earth had to have been completed. That means TIME. The real point is not how long John cried: it is WHY He cried: that search he watched ended in failure: "no man or one was found." The real question is, WHY was Jesus not found in the first search. I take the simplest answer right out of the book. He was found later because He prevailed. What? He prevailed ascending to heaven - in transit? Sorry, does not fit. One thing we all know Jesus prevailed over and that was DEATH.
The very fact that John was weeping and wrote what he did proves that first search ended. Why would John write "no man was found" if the search was still ongoing? Why would Jesus say to me, "Why was I not found in that first search? Jesus question to me follows exactly what John wrote. The fact that Jesus was found later shows us another search was started: presumably the same way, heaven, earth, then under the earth.
No, sorry! NO "showing up" in the text. What is written is, He "hath prevailed to open the book." No "automatic qualifications either: what is written is that HE PREVAILED.
If we back up from His ascension, we find Him talking to Mary. If we back up further, we find He just rose from the dead. Since rising from the dead FITS "prevailing" why just just believe it? Why disagree so much over this?
FINALLY! Something that fits the text! It seems we can agree on one point! But from the rest of scriptures, what happened BEFORE He ascended? Mary, remember? And before that? He arose.
It just makes sense that if we back up to before He arose, He had not at that time completed everything necessary to become the Redeemer. You DO believe there was a time before He arose?
Oh no, I am not wrong, absolutely. Your master is blind. If the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Based in the Word of God, the source of the truth, on God's six Days of creation and one Day of rest (a total of seven days) plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years (2 Pet.3:8) so MANKIND would go through six God Days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years).
In accord biblical Chronology, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chapter 5, as follow:
Adam lived …..........................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived …………………………………………………..........105 yrs and begat Enosh;
Enosh lived ............................................90 yrs and begat Kenan;
Kenan lived............................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
Mahalalel lived ........................................65 yrs and begat Jared;
Jared lived ...........................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Enoch lived ............................................65 yrs and begat Methuselah;
Methuselah lived.....................................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
Lamech lived ........................................182 yrs and begat Noah;
From Noah´s birth until the Flood.................600 yrs.
Total of years from Adam to the Flood =........1,656 yrs.
I work with the Word of God. Notice that the table above is proved by the Word of God, it is not of human theories or human speculations. Let us study the times until our days not by human theories and speculations, but by the Word of God. So, see the table below:
PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ----------------------- DURATION
I - From Adam to the Flood-------------------------1,656 years (as was showed above)
II - From the Flood to Abraham----------------------.427 years
III - From Abraham to Exodus-------------------------430 years - Gal.3:17
IV - From Exodus to king Saul ------------------------396 years
V - From Saul to the fall of Jerusalem ------------. 508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem to Jesus ----------. 587 years
Thus, from Adam to the 1st coming of Jesus ----4,004 years
From Jesus to our days (Christian Calendar)----. 2,020 years
Total from Adam to our days ---------------------- 6,024 years
Therefore, we just entered and are living in the beginning of the FIRST century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day (2 Pe. 3:v.8)
JESUS -the Greater Light,Genesis 1:v.16-came in the fourth Day or around 4,000 years after GOD has started His works of restitution of all things. From JESUS (fourth Day) until our days, have passed more TWO DAYS or 2,000 years (one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years), totaling 6 complete Days or six complete millenniums,or around 6.000 years, more precisely 6,020 years, according Christian Calendar pointing the year 2.020. So, we have entered in the beginning of the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Millennium of Vengeance.
The world of Devil is already Judged and Condemned, and now, in this seventh and last millennium, it will be punished with strong punishments, there will be only and only punishments in this last Day, the Day of the Lord, King of kings and LORD of lords.
And God Father has already entered in His rest, as He had planned in the beginning of His works, but He is not sleeping, of course, and JESUS assume the government of the Universe. JESUS said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matthew 28:v.18
JESUS is now sat on His Throne, the Judgment Seat of Christ, to Judge all nations, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not His gospel, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of His Power.
The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:v.15)
Revelation 11: v.18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come (GOD's wrath - the Word is GOD), and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth. It's it.
In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him) and LORD of lords
Based in the Word of God, the source of the truth, on God's six Days of creation and one Day of rest (a total of seven days) plus the Scriptures that teach that one Day is with the Lord as a thousand years (2 Pet.3:8) so MANKIND would go through six God Days of 1,000 years each (a total of 6,000 years) plus a Millennium of 1,000 years rest (now a total of 7,000 years).
In accord biblical Chronology, we can number our days, beginning in Genesis chapter 5, as follow:
Adam lived …..........................................130 yrs and begat Seth
Seth lived …………………………………………………..........105 yrs and begat Enosh;
Enosh lived ............................................90 yrs and begat Kenan;
Kenan lived............................................70 yrs and begat Mahalalel;
Mahalalel lived ........................................65 yrs and begat Jared;
Jared lived ...........................................162 yrs and begat Enoch;
Enoch lived ............................................65 yrs and begat Methuselah;
Methuselah lived.....................................187 yrs and begat Lamech;
Lamech lived ........................................182 yrs and begat Noah;
From Noah´s birth until the Flood.................600 yrs.
Total of years from Adam to the Flood =........1,656 yrs.
I work with the Word of God. Notice that the table above is proved by the Word of God, it is not of human theories or human speculations. Let us study the times until our days not by human theories and speculations, but by the Word of God. So, see the table below:
PERIODS OF BIBLICAL TIMES ----------------------- DURATION
I - From Adam to the Flood-------------------------1,656 years (as was showed above)
II - From the Flood to Abraham----------------------.427 years
III - From Abraham to Exodus-------------------------430 years - Gal.3:17
IV - From Exodus to king Saul ------------------------396 years
V - From Saul to the fall of Jerusalem ------------. 508 years
VI - From the fall of Jerusalem to Jesus ----------. 587 years
Thus, from Adam to the 1st coming of Jesus ----4,004 years
From Jesus to our days (Christian Calendar)----. 2,020 years
Total from Adam to our days ---------------------- 6,024 years
Therefore, we just entered and are living in the beginning of the FIRST century of the seventh and last millennium or seventh and last Day (2 Pe. 3:v.8)
JESUS -the Greater Light,Genesis 1:v.16-came in the fourth Day or around 4,000 years after GOD has started His works of restitution of all things. From JESUS (fourth Day) until our days, have passed more TWO DAYS or 2,000 years (one Day with the Lord is as a thousand years), totaling 6 complete Days or six complete millenniums,or around 6.000 years, more precisely 6,020 years, according Christian Calendar pointing the year 2.020. So, we have entered in the beginning of the first century of the seventh and last millennium, or seventh and last Day, the Lord's Day, the Millennium of Christ, the Millennium of Truth, the Millennium of Judgment, the Judgment Seat of Christ, the Millennium of Vengeance.
The world of Devil is already Judged and Condemned, and now, in this seventh and last millennium, it will be punished with strong punishments, there will be only and only punishments in this last Day, the Day of the Lord, King of kings and LORD of lords.
And God Father has already entered in His rest, as He had planned in the beginning of His works, but He is not sleeping, of course, and JESUS assume the government of the Universe. JESUS said: All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Matthew 28:v.18
JESUS is now sat on His Throne, the Judgment Seat of Christ, to Judge all nations, taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not His gospel, who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the Glory of His Power.
The kingdoms of THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:v.15)
Revelation 11: v.18
And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come (GOD's wrath - the Word is GOD), and the time of the dead, that they should be Judged, and that GOD should give reward unto His servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear His name, small and great; and should DESTROY them which destroy the earth. It's it.
In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him) and LORD of lords
Not being funny here, you do understand Satan still seeks to undermine us while we are Christians and will still whisper lies unto us, it is up to us to discern these lies. As a very young Christian, he tried to get me to follow the RCC is not of God and is the Beast lie, when the fact is the Latin Vulgate(Roman Church) pushed the Gospel for the first 1000 years of the movement, more than any other peoples, the Pax Romana was a very, VERY important aspect of spreading the Gospel. Ever hear of ALL ROADS lead to Rome? Well, this meant Paul and Peter, being citizens of Rome could travel to all parts of the kingdom preaching the Gospel and the Koine language meant all other peoples understood a common language. The Roman Culture was a must in spreading the gospel, all Churches have bad apples, and the Hierarchy has gone astray, but so have the Methodists, the Mormons, SDA are not even real Christians IMHO, etc. So, Satan will try and whisper falsehoods unto us, you went down a wrong path, and it seems you are too dug in to see that you chose a wrong turn.
All the Seals are opened during the 70th week because the first 5 are The Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horn. You base all your assumptions on NO MAN being able to open the Seals, but an honest reflection means Jesus has to be a NOWHERE AN or else you are mistaken about what it means and are too dug in (proud is another word. but people get hurt feelings, I don't know why we are SINNERS and PRIDE is one of our worst faults, especially as males) to ever admit that this isn't what the Angel is trying to POINT US UNTO. He is trying to point us to why Jesus is WORTHY, he is the Slain Lamb of God !!
Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
So, you think John waited in Heaven via a vision 2000 years for God to make a point? No sir and I know there is NO TIME in Heaven, but my point is, God's point unto John was this, Jesus THE SLAIN LAMB IS WORTHY !! Read the rest of the Chapter, the whole chapter could be titled Worthy is the Lamb, this is where that song comes from !!
John SAW no one open the Seals, which have to be loosed before the Judgments can start, the Seals DO NOTHING anyway, they are only Jesus prophesying what is to come over the 42 months of Gods Wtath which is paralleled by the Anti-Christs 42 months of rule. He saw NO ONE that was able to open the book IN HEAVEN...........IN EARTH.............Nor UNDER THE EARTH !! So, where was Jesus? Because with your thinking he would have to be the Nowhere Man, because the above verse says NO MAN could open the Seals. But the point is Jesus IS NOT a mere man, he's the Son of God, the Slain Lamb that has Redeemed mankind, thus he is WORTHY !!
We see the Rapture in Rev. 4:1, the Voice of Jesus is as a TRUMP !! We then see the OVERCOMERS in Rev. 4:4, they sit at God's throne (promise seen in Rev. 3:21) with White Raiment as promised to those that overcome in Rev. 3:5, and they have on CROWNS as promised to those that were faithful unto death in Rev. 2:10. We see those in Heaven were Redeemed by Jesus' blood (Rev. 5:9) and we know that no one else gets Raptured after the 70th starts because Jesus clearly tells us that in the 5th Seal prophecy. We also see that in Rev. 20:4, ALL of the Martyrs of the 70th week are Judged AFTER the Second Coming (Rev. 16:19 and Rev. 19, and even Rev. 11, and even Rev. 14:17-20, ALL THE SAME EVENT).
Never allow ONE PASSAGE to lead you down a narrow path. I think it's made great man become diminished in part because you are on a train heading down a cul-de-sac. No Seals were opened 2000 years ago, it's just nonsensical to me tbh. If it came close to maybe making sense, I would debate it, but it's just not remotely possible. You are so stuck in on those ONE THING,that it has led you in many wrong directions, and you get angry at those of us who try to reason with you, the thing is, all Saan needs is ONE OPENING, "Ye shall not surely die" and he runs with it.
All the Seals are opened during the 70th week because the first 5 are The Anti-Christ/Beast/Little Horn. You base all your assumptions on NO MAN being able to open the Seals, but an honest reflection means Jesus has to be a NOWHERE AN or else you are mistaken about what it means and are too dug in (proud is another word. but people get hurt feelings, I don't know why we are SINNERS and PRIDE is one of our worst faults, especially as males) to ever admit that this isn't what the Angel is trying to POINT US UNTO. He is trying to point us to why Jesus is WORTHY, he is the Slain Lamb of God !!
Rev. 5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. 4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof. 6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
So, you think John waited in Heaven via a vision 2000 years for God to make a point? No sir and I know there is NO TIME in Heaven, but my point is, God's point unto John was this, Jesus THE SLAIN LAMB IS WORTHY !! Read the rest of the Chapter, the whole chapter could be titled Worthy is the Lamb, this is where that song comes from !!
John SAW no one open the Seals, which have to be loosed before the Judgments can start, the Seals DO NOTHING anyway, they are only Jesus prophesying what is to come over the 42 months of Gods Wtath which is paralleled by the Anti-Christs 42 months of rule. He saw NO ONE that was able to open the book IN HEAVEN...........IN EARTH.............Nor UNDER THE EARTH !! So, where was Jesus? Because with your thinking he would have to be the Nowhere Man, because the above verse says NO MAN could open the Seals. But the point is Jesus IS NOT a mere man, he's the Son of God, the Slain Lamb that has Redeemed mankind, thus he is WORTHY !!
We see the Rapture in Rev. 4:1, the Voice of Jesus is as a TRUMP !! We then see the OVERCOMERS in Rev. 4:4, they sit at God's throne (promise seen in Rev. 3:21) with White Raiment as promised to those that overcome in Rev. 3:5, and they have on CROWNS as promised to those that were faithful unto death in Rev. 2:10. We see those in Heaven were Redeemed by Jesus' blood (Rev. 5:9) and we know that no one else gets Raptured after the 70th starts because Jesus clearly tells us that in the 5th Seal prophecy. We also see that in Rev. 20:4, ALL of the Martyrs of the 70th week are Judged AFTER the Second Coming (Rev. 16:19 and Rev. 19, and even Rev. 11, and even Rev. 14:17-20, ALL THE SAME EVENT).
Never allow ONE PASSAGE to lead you down a narrow path. I think it's made great man become diminished in part because you are on a train heading down a cul-de-sac. No Seals were opened 2000 years ago, it's just nonsensical to me tbh. If it came close to maybe making sense, I would debate it, but it's just not remotely possible. You are so stuck in on those ONE THING,that it has led you in many wrong directions, and you get angry at those of us who try to reason with you, the thing is, all Saan needs is ONE OPENING, "Ye shall not surely die" and he runs with it.
I don't think it was ongoing but when Jesus appeared, no second search was needed.
Here's something fun. Why don't you quote the scriptures that speak of that second search!
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Of course there is, even you said there was in a recent post:
"He was not seen in heaven (because He was on earth)
The Holy Spirit was still in heaven (because He had not yet risen)
Jesus was NOT found (because at that point in time He had not yet rise from the dead.)
Jesus in a later search WAS found (because He had by this time risen from the dead.)
Jesus ascended (after sending Mary away.)"
If he was on the Earth and later was seen in heaven then obviously there is a "showing up" in heaven after his ascension.
Here's something fun. Why don't you quote the scriptures that speak of that second search!
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Of course there is, even you said there was in a recent post:
"He was not seen in heaven (because He was on earth)
The Holy Spirit was still in heaven (because He had not yet risen)
Jesus was NOT found (because at that point in time He had not yet rise from the dead.)
Jesus in a later search WAS found (because He had by this time risen from the dead.)
Jesus ascended (after sending Mary away.)"
If he was on the Earth and later was seen in heaven then obviously there is a "showing up" in heaven after his ascension.
Since you opened this topic you have spread a flood of lies and false testimony in this Christian site, Christian Chat, like this quoted above, for example.
In your post #9 you wrote: " God had a problem: He wanted to show John the book with 7 seals, but wanted to START while the book was still in the Hand of the Father". What? What you wrote is a great lie. GOD needs not me to defend Him here of your false interpretation of His Word, He is Omnipotent, and Omniscient, and Omnipresent. Now, now, GOD never wanted to do what you are saying He wanted to do, but never, what you said is a great lie of you, this spirit will be cast into the abyss at this current time. 1 Cor. 2:v. 14 says: Who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?
Actually, the problem is you who want do adapt your false and deceitful interpretation of the Word of GOD to the satanic theory you have invented to deceive the readers here.
In your post #9 you wrote: But it is 95 AD and Jesus took the book around 32 AD. What? What you wrote is a great lie. JESUS did not take the sealed book around 32 AD. Its a lie. JESUS did not took the book, He received the sealed book from the Father, and it occurred around the year 95 AD, not around 32 AD, its a lie. Revelation 1:v.1- 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John. THIS EVENT OCCURRED AROUND THE YEAR 95 AD, not at 32 AD. GOD does the things at the right time, nor before, nor after.
In your post #9 you wrote: "How would God convey that this part of the vision was history to John? How would YOU do it, if you had to show a vision of the past?" It is you who is inventing a history that GOD never would convey. It is you who are trying to adapt your spiritual trash with the wonderful events that GOD gave to JESUS to reveal unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass after the year 95 AD.
But the angel of the LORD went unto JOHN and said unto him: Revelation 1:v. 19 - Write the things which thou hast seen (present time- year 95 AD), and the things which are (present time - year 95 AD), and the things which shall be hereafter; (future time - from year 95 AD forward)
The 7 Churches of Asia, and also the Church of Rome, were founded by the Apostle Paul, these churches did not existed yet in the year 32 AD.
The things that John saw in the 7 Churches, and he wrote, they were occurring overtime and in the year 95 AD , the most part of the angels of the churches of Asia were reproved. Furthermore, Paul Apostle, who knew JESUS only time after His ascension, founded the churches of Asia and also the church of Rome, which corrupted exceedingly with idolatry and witchery and still is corrupted completely.
Yeah, the Church of Rome had been apostatized and corrupted by Satan completely, and the 7 Churches of Asia were being influenced even by the idolatry of the church of Rome. The church of Rome would be the eighth, but it was left out because the church of Rome was already completely disapproved by JESUS. About the events above described, and the corruption of the Church of Rome, the Word of GOD reveals by the VISUAL testimony of Apostle John, as follow: 1 John 2:v.18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They (the Church of Rome) went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
In your post #9 you wrote: " God had a problem: He wanted to show John the book with 7 seals, but wanted to START while the book was still in the Hand of the Father". What? What you wrote is a great lie. GOD needs not me to defend Him here of your false interpretation of His Word, He is Omnipotent, and Omniscient, and Omnipresent. Now, now, GOD never wanted to do what you are saying He wanted to do, but never, what you said is a great lie of you, this spirit will be cast into the abyss at this current time. 1 Cor. 2:v. 14 says: Who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?
Actually, the problem is you who want do adapt your false and deceitful interpretation of the Word of GOD to the satanic theory you have invented to deceive the readers here.
In your post #9 you wrote: But it is 95 AD and Jesus took the book around 32 AD. What? What you wrote is a great lie. JESUS did not take the sealed book around 32 AD. Its a lie. JESUS did not took the book, He received the sealed book from the Father, and it occurred around the year 95 AD, not around 32 AD, its a lie. Revelation 1:v.1- 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto Him, to shew unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and signified it by His angel unto His servant John. THIS EVENT OCCURRED AROUND THE YEAR 95 AD, not at 32 AD. GOD does the things at the right time, nor before, nor after.
In your post #9 you wrote: "How would God convey that this part of the vision was history to John? How would YOU do it, if you had to show a vision of the past?" It is you who is inventing a history that GOD never would convey. It is you who are trying to adapt your spiritual trash with the wonderful events that GOD gave to JESUS to reveal unto His servants things which must shortly come to pass after the year 95 AD.
But the angel of the LORD went unto JOHN and said unto him: Revelation 1:v. 19 - Write the things which thou hast seen (present time- year 95 AD), and the things which are (present time - year 95 AD), and the things which shall be hereafter; (future time - from year 95 AD forward)
The 7 Churches of Asia, and also the Church of Rome, were founded by the Apostle Paul, these churches did not existed yet in the year 32 AD.
The things that John saw in the 7 Churches, and he wrote, they were occurring overtime and in the year 95 AD , the most part of the angels of the churches of Asia were reproved. Furthermore, Paul Apostle, who knew JESUS only time after His ascension, founded the churches of Asia and also the church of Rome, which corrupted exceedingly with idolatry and witchery and still is corrupted completely.
Yeah, the Church of Rome had been apostatized and corrupted by Satan completely, and the 7 Churches of Asia were being influenced even by the idolatry of the church of Rome. The church of Rome would be the eighth, but it was left out because the church of Rome was already completely disapproved by JESUS. About the events above described, and the corruption of the Church of Rome, the Word of GOD reveals by the VISUAL testimony of Apostle John, as follow: 1 John 2:v.18-19
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They (the Church of Rome) went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Why don't you tell us how much time elapsed while John was weeping?
Tell us why John would have written "no man was found" if the search was ongoing? It just does not fit.
This actually tells us what changed between when John wept and Jesus was found. It says "he prevailed." You imagine He prevailed in transit! I say He prevailed over death. It was just before He ascended.
"Showing up" Ah! so you "ad libbed" the showing up, just as I "ad libbed" the second search! I agree with you, He suddenly "showed up" in heaven where He was NOT a moment before. He could have "showed up" just after it is written that He prevailed. But we would have to guess on that.
I am satisfied that Jesus told the truth when He spoke to me.
“John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”
You can try to reason your way around what He, the AUTHOR, said, but I was there: I KNOW He said this. I heard His voice and His words. What He said fits the text. John wept because that search ended. Probably the angel left - went back to heaven to start the search again.
I find it is much easier to just believe the text as written, and not try to argue against it.
It is not a salvation issue. But Jesus did say this:
“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.
Tell us why John would have written "no man was found" if the search was ongoing? It just does not fit.
This actually tells us what changed between when John wept and Jesus was found. It says "he prevailed." You imagine He prevailed in transit! I say He prevailed over death. It was just before He ascended.
"Showing up" Ah! so you "ad libbed" the showing up, just as I "ad libbed" the second search! I agree with you, He suddenly "showed up" in heaven where He was NOT a moment before. He could have "showed up" just after it is written that He prevailed. But we would have to guess on that.
I am satisfied that Jesus told the truth when He spoke to me.
“John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”
You can try to reason your way around what He, the AUTHOR, said, but I was there: I KNOW He said this. I heard His voice and His words. What He said fits the text. John wept because that search ended. Probably the angel left - went back to heaven to start the search again.
I find it is much easier to just believe the text as written, and not try to argue against it.
It is not a salvation issue. But Jesus did say this:
“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this vision.