What if God had written IN STONE?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,441
3,222
113
I read in the New Testament that Jesus taught the 10 Commandments.
Matt. 23:1-3

I read in the New Testament that Jesus obeyed each and every one.
John 15:10

I read in the New Testament that Jesus' followers obeyed the 10 Commandments after His death.
Luke 23:54-56
Acts 21:24

Do Paul, or any other Apostle, override Jesus Christ in anything that they teach?

Who has the final word on all things Christianity? His Name is in the term itself.The 10 Commandments are the only ones God wrote in stone with His own finger.

They are the only ones God ever spoke aloud from Mt. Sinai to all the people present.

Jesus also spoke them aloud to His followers and obeyed them as an example to us of how to live righteously before God.

All the rest expired at the Cross. None of those were written in stone and Jesus even ridiculed the Jews for teaching and strictly adhering to so many of those.

The 10 Commandments are the only Commandments that can be referred to as God's Law.
Wrong. Jesus rebuked those who put man's interpretation, the Talmud, above God's word. Paul does not override what Jesus said but he sure explained that the Law no longer applies to those who trust in Christ. So does the writer to the Hebrews. Jesus said that the commandments that matter are love God and love your neighbour. The rich young man obeyed the commandments. Yet Jesus said that it was not enough. Which of the 10 commandments says "sell all you have and give to the poor"?

Jesus did not make it hard to obey God's commandments. He made it impossible. (Sermon on the mount). Stones can break. Where are the stones now? If they mattered so much, would God have not preserved them? No, God promised to write His law on the new heart and spirit that he promised to man. It is now the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus instead of the law that only brings condemnation. The temple veil was rent and, eventually, the temple was destroyed. Christians are now the temple of the Holy Spirit. We are living stones. The Law belongs to the old covenant. Spirtual life is of the new covenant.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,441
3,222
113
Got some scripture for that bold statement? Jesus said...

Mat_5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Mat_5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Mat_24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

Mar_13:31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.
Jesus did fulfil the Law entirely. No one else has or could. Hebrews 8:13 says that the Law is obsolete and there are 3 verses that say that the Law is a shadow. I prefer to live in the light. Jesus lives in me to lead me and guide me in the way that i should go. He is my motivation and enabling to do God's will. I can't remember the last time I read the 10 commandments. I am well aware of what the new covenant has to say. I do know that Jesus is my life, my Lord, my holiness and my righteousness. I won't be boasting before God about how well I kept His Law. I will boast only in what Jesus has done for me through His death and resurrection and His work within me since the day I was born again.
 

Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
5,441
3,222
113
What is wrong with doing our best to follow the Ten? What is wrong with each of them?

I know I am yet not perfect, for God will complete that condition in me, but the ten Commandments are wonderful and good guidelines for all who live in grace to attempt to follow to the letter, for they are nor without mercy and love.

So, please address these augmenting questions.
The problem is twofold. First, you cannot keep the commandments. Second, the commandments are only a shadow of God's intent fro mankind. Aspiring to keep God's commandments is not enough. Jesus said exactly that to the rich young ruler, who kept God's Law from His youth.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
113
The problem is twofold. First, you cannot keep the commandments. Second, the commandments are only a shadow of God's intent fro mankind. Aspiring to keep God's commandments is not enough. Jesus said exactly that to the rich young ruler, who kept God's Law from His youth.
"doing our best to follow the Ten," did I say we could actually do them? We should do our best to follow them, for this is immolating Jesus Yeshua.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
Got some scripture for that bold statement?
Posted it just yesterday.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;



Jesus said...

Mat_5:17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.

Mat_5:18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
The law was fulfilled by Christ.

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

G2647
?ata??´?
kataluo¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to dissolve, disunite
1a) (what has been joined together), to destroy, demolish
1b) metaphorically to overthrow, i.e. render vain, deprive of success, bring to naught
1b1) to subvert, overthrow
1b1a) of institutions, forms of government, laws, etc., to deprive of force, annul, abrogate, discard
1c) of travellers, to halt on a journey, to put up, lodge (the figurative expression originating in the circumstance that, to put up for the night, the straps and packs of the beasts of burden are unbound and taken off; or, more correctly from the fact that the traveller’s garments, tied up when he is on the journey, are unloosed at it end)
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2596 and G3089
Citing in TDNT: 4:338, 543

Naturally Christ did not come to destroy the law but he did come to fulfill it:



Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill.


G4137
p????´?
ple¯roo¯
Thayer Definition:
1) to make full, to fill up, i.e. to fill to the full
1a) to cause to abound, to furnish or supply liberally
1a1) I abound, I am liberally supplied
2) to render full, i.e. to complete
2a) to fill to the top: so that nothing shall be wanting to full measure, fill to the brim
2b) to consummate: a number
2b1) to make complete in every particular, to render perfect
2b2) to carry through to the end, to accomplish, carry out, (some undertaking)
2c) to carry into effect, bring to realisation, realise
2c1) of matters of duty: to perform, execute
2c2) of sayings, promises, prophecies, to bring to pass, ratify, accomplish
2c3) to fulfil, i.e. to cause God’s will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God’s promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment
Part of Speech: verb
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G4134
Citing in TDNT: 6:286, 867

The word means to complete. When something is incomplete then is completed it is done and finished. Something new then can be started and this is what Christ came to do. The old law was completed so a new law (which is a new Covenant) could be introduced.

It wouldn't be proper to introduce a new law if the old one was not completed and only following that law perfectly could fulfill it.

So the old law was fulfilled and completed and could then be replaced by a new law. This makes the first law "old" which Paul said was decaying.

Destroying something and completing something have the same exact results, in this case decaying:

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

First of all, the law is the words of a covenant so the decaying of the covenant includes the law of that covenant:

Galatians 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.



Here something called the covenant is also called the law and we know this is the Sinai covenant and the law of Moses because of the dating of it coming 430 years after the promise to Abraham.



God has had covenants with various peoples but as far as the Sinai covenant and the law of it, it started at Sinai with Moses.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Paul is using the analogy of the law having been alive like a created living creature who at some point dies and decays and eventually that carcass vanishes. That is the same result had the same creature been destroyed like being near a bomb that explodes. Death and decay and vanishing would also take place.


So, while Christ did not destroy the law, he did do something else that did result in the law being made old, replaced by something new, and a figurative death occurring and a figurative decay and vanishing that took place.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
That's amazing.

I wonder why He never taught His followers that the 10 Commandments ended when He died.

He did teach it which is why Paul knew it.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Paul is using the analogy of the law having been alive like a created living creature who at some point dies and decays and eventually that carcass vanishes. That is the same result had the same creature been destroyed like being near a bomb that explodes. Death and decay and vanishing would also take place.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
5,075
1,279
113
Ok, but posthuman has a negative definition.

And a changed version of the name of God is not negative? You shouldn't be nitpicking other's names with the name you have chosen.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
13,614
9,127
113
Now I remember you, Penn. I've seen you on many other sites.

You're mr and mrs twisty twister.

Ok.

You have your fun, I have better things to do.
Lol!
Translation:

"OK, you caught me in a blatant, unexplainable lie, so I'll just make up more stuff, and not even address my lie"


Dude, you're getting deeper and deeper into your prevarications!

I don't visit ANY other sites, much less post in them. By all means, show me ONE post ANYWHERE else that I've made, and I'll concede your heresy that you MUST try as hard as you can to follow the Law, to stay saved.

I suspect you go from site to site peddling your heresy until you get banned, and then move on to the next.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus and not by our own efforts or works.
Eph. 2:8-9Christ's work was finished.

He blazed a spiritual pathway for His sheep to follow and be saved from imminent death/destruction of all mankind due to original sin. He broke the curse of death for all who would follow His way.

Those who don't follow His way will be judged very harshly, some worse than others.

Matt. 7:21-23 showcases those who believed in, and believed they were following, Christ, but were not obeying the 10 Commandments. That's why Christ called them workers of iniquity. Iniquity is sin, sin is the breaking of the 10 Commandments (1 Jn. 3:4). A worker of iniquity is someone who works sin (kneads leven) into the surrounding society (into the whole lump of dough) by their living example of daily habitual sin.

Christ's work of creating a path for all who would follow is finished. There was no such path before His death as He was the perfect sinless sacrifice which ultimately defeated death, but all things have not yet come to pass. Upon His return, all the world will be judged and those who are found worthy will not be rejected and will be saved. The dead "in Christ" will rise first and then those who are alive and remain.
Right. Quoting Ephesians is right...but that is actual scripture

as for your response regarding this question: how do you understand the differences between the law given through Moses and the work of Christ which He said, while on the cross, 'IT IS FINISHED' , it is the same error you have proliferated throughout this thread, beginning with your op

Jesus did not 'blaze a spiritual pathway'. What does that even mean. Jesus is not some spiritual guru. He is the Son of God who died once for all on our behalf in order that we might be forgiven and have communion with our Creator...God the Father. I cannot emphasize enough the apparent confusion you are in, contorting scripture and riding a one legged horse after your quest.

I don't know if you are following someone else's teaching or you simply have interpreted scripture to your own understanding.

Jesus saying 'IT IS FINISHED' and then giving up His life on the cross, means there is no more work to be done. Christ has completed ALL of it and if we are a believer in Christ, we are saved from the wrath of God against sin. The Bible says we are a new creation in Christ

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things have become new.
II Corinthians 5:17


So yes, we are saved by faith as you stated by posting that scripture from Ephesians, but then for some reason you go off about the 10 commandments and seem to be somewhat confused as to how salvation actually changes a person. You seem to lay the onus on human beings to 'keep' the 10 commandments while acknowledging we still sin.

Once again, after a good number of times actually, the 10 Commandments are not stand alone instructions to keep us in good standing with God. The ONLY ONLY ONLY thing that keeps us in good standing with God, is our 'position' in Christ...meaning we have believed in God's provision for our salvation through His Son and we are now living a life that indicates that very thing.

A believer in Christ KNOWS that immorality or deliberate sinful behavior is not how we are to live but we also know and acknowledge that our life is now lived in/by faith in Christ.

I fear you many have some confusion regarding what salvation actually is. I would implore you to stop defending these mistaken beliefs regarding salvation and understand that people here are not arguing with you and there really is no debate regarding what scripture plainly states.

We cannot begin in the Spirit and then revert to our fleshly efforts in order to maintain our salvation. It is God's work in us by His Spirit, from beginning to end.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
Braweh , there is evidence in ACTS ther OAul was against the teachings of the law;
hey ~ I know what you are saying here, but if I might just reword this for the sake of those who just cannot seem to understand?

Paul was against those who wanted to return to things concerned with the law and the point he made, was that Christ FULFILLED all the obligations once and for all.

So he understood the law full well but knew Jesus had made a better way.

Thanks...don't mean to step on toes
 
N

Niki7

Guest
He did not come to change anything concerning the Law.
you are in direct opposition to the scriptures that testify the opposite of what you proclaim

Jesus fulfilled the law so we could avoid the wrath of God

God sent His Son because He loved His creation

it sounds like you may not believe in the Trinity...you may state otherwise if that is not a true statement
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,969
13,625
113
I would only disagree with you slightly in that the Apostles and Prophets are not the foundation, their message is.

We, including all Apostles and Prophets, are all bricks/stones in the building of God and Christ is the Cornerstone, but the foundation is the message they all delivered and that message is obedience to God's Law.
disagree.
the message, the gospel, is faith in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

God's Law, the 10 Commandments, are what all of Christianity is built upon. They are far more than basic moral rules.
The Law of the marriage covenant with the nation of Israel is more than the decalogue - it's ALL of Deuteronomy and Leviticus. it's not broken into optional segments and it was all given by God to Israel.

it is not what Christianity is built on.
Christianity is built on the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Christ is the foundation, not the decalogue.
that is why we call. it Christianity, not decalogueanity.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
"doing our best to follow the Ten," did I say we could actually do them? We should do our best to follow them, for this is immolating Jesus Yeshua.
we should follow Christ. He changes our hearts and gives us new life in Him.

we don't have to try and follow the law. if the law was able to provide salvation, Jesus would not have had to die

our best is filthy rags to God and an insult to Him because of the sacrifice of His Son

there is no question that Christians do not believe in continuing in sin. if certain believers...or those who say they are believers, continue in sin, they may not be saved at all
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,969
13,625
113
I don't visit ANY other sites, much less post in them. By all means, show me ONE post ANYWHERE else that I've made, and I'll concede your heresy that you MUST try as hard as you can to follow the Law, to stay saved.
i don't have any problem with encouraging each other to walk in the righteousness described in the law.

the issue i disagree with is calling the 10 commandments the foundation of our faith.

that is, IMO, absolutely wrong. Christ is the foundation of our faith, and it is faith not works through which we are saved and remain saved - remaining saved by the power and faithfulness of God, not by our success and keeping our flesh subjected to what our spirits know are right actions.

Christianity is a belief, not a philosophy of living - in Galatians this is explained very clearly, that the Law is not of faith, because it says "do this and live" - but the gospel in stark contrast says believe this and live.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
I really am thinking that this particular aberration, that some believe we must obey 'parts' of the law which was never given to Gentiles, in direct opposition to scripture, is one of 2 main lies the devil is disposed to whisper in the ears of those who are either following wrong teaching or believe they can understand scripture better than others.

The other, would be that God creates some for the lake of fire and has already decided who will join Him in heaven, aka Calvinism

What Jesus really emphasized, was the need to be aware of deception....do not be deceived.

This is more than just a disagreement or debate. This, is deliberate twisting of scripture. In order to do that, a person must ignore all scripture that does not give credence to what they say.

We should all pay attention to ourselves and pray for discernment and pray we do not fall into temptation or deception.

Things are serious in this world we live in
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
37,969
13,625
113
Paul is using the analogy of the law having been alive like a created living creature who at some point dies and decays and eventually that carcass vanishes. That is the same result had the same creature been destroyed like being near a bomb that explodes. Death and decay and vanishing would also take place.
i think the analogy may be more like that of a garment that wears thin and eventually decays to the point it is unwearable any more - because of the similar language in Hebrews 1:10-12, quoting Isaiah 5.

Hebrews was written while the temple still stood in Jerusalem, but now that it is removed, for Israel the keeping of the marriage covenant Law is impossible, because it requires many things to be done in the temple or tabernacle.

God had manifested their disgrace to them in the past similarly with their captivities and the destruction of the first temple, because of their idolatry ((vis a vis adultery)) and now at their rejection of the Son and His covenant of His own blood, the former covenant has become. not just obsolete by the introduction of the new covenant, but impossible to keep, vis a vis "wear"

we must "put on Christ" - - there is no other salvation but in Him.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,465
6,722
113
we should follow Christ. He changes our hearts and gives us new life in Him.

we don't have to try and follow the law. if the law was able to provide salvation, Jesus would not have had to die

our best is filthy rags to God and an insult to Him because of the sacrifice of His Son

there is no question that Christians do not believe in continuing in sin. if certain believers...or those who say they are believers, continue in sin, they may not be saved at all
To whom you respond here, I do not know. Obviously you have either not read my post or you simply cannot understand what the message is.

No man can do God any favors, however hu must obey Him. As for the Commandments, if you read dthe Word you will find they are taken from stone and inscribed upon our hearts. You do not need to believe me, but do believe the Word., please. May God blss you with understanding and love always.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
25,610
13,863
113
Yeah.

Enhanced is a good word. Augmented, even better.

Jesus made fun of the Jews for all that nonsense they added.
Nobody (that I’m aware of) is advocating that Christians follow ‘Pharisaical augmentations’. However, those who advocate following just the Ten Commandments and not the rest of the law have no biblical foundation. You either follow the whole law (all of the ordinances, not just the ten) or none of it. ‘613 laws’ is shorthand for ‘all the ordinances of the old covenant’; whether it is the precise number is irrelevant.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
To whom you respond here, I do not know. Obviously you have either not read my post or you simply cannot understand what the message is.

No man can do God any favors, however hu must obey Him. As for the Commandments, if you read dthe Word you will find they are taken from stone and inscribed upon our hearts. You do not need to believe me, but do believe the Word., please. May God blss you with understanding and love always.
we should follow Christ